Het Pied "Markers"--Fact or Fiction?

So! I'm curious. How many of you have proven out possible het pieds that have pied markers? Have you proven possible het pieds with the markers to be NOT hets? Answer the poll, and then post below saying what you said, why, and your examples. Thanks!

You forgot the poll!
Now I see it!!!

Every time I've ever heard anyone talk about the het pied marker, it comes with a subscript that it is in no way a definite indicator. Our pair of 100% het pieds both display the marker, but I wouldn't have accepted that alone as proof they were hets.

Not 100% conclusive, some have them some don’t.

And I also have a normal female with the same belly marker!

Bottom line the only marker for me is the guaranty of a reputable breeder!

If 100 % of het pieds had markers wouldn't that make them not hets at all? Wouldn't piebald become a co-dominant trait?

...Just a thought.

My Het Pied CJ male has the markers as well as a bit of a ringer, but so does an 04 adult female I've raised from a baby that I know isn't a het.

If I am looking at possible hets, then I generally pick the snake that looks wonky or has the markers. If I'm buying from a reputable breeder, then I don't worry if the snake has markers or not.

I know Justin Kobylka believes in markers now! ;)

But that said - my het pied does not have the marker.

my poss het hypo het pied have the markers and so does my normal female. but my normal female may have come from a het pied normal clutch im not hoping for anything from her though.

ive seen it in normals and 100% het pieds so it isnt conclusive... personaly if i dealt in possible hets i would buy a possible het with the marker over one that didnt have it....but if i did deal in possible hets then i would buy all the females anyway.

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Originally Posted by rabernet

I know Justin Kobylka believes in markers now! ;)

But that said - my het pied does not have the marker.

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You took the words right out of my mouth. My experience as been this...

When I hatched out my once-in-a-lifetime surprise pied clutch last year, both both dame and sire had STRONG het pied markers.

This year I hatched out approximately 30 50% possible het pieds, males and females. About 1/2 of them had makers.

I don't see these two bits as coincidences... Plus I'm not going to name drop, but the people who would know more than any one, place a tremendous amount of significance on the markers. On a side note, there is more to markers than just the belly. and for the record I wish there were no pied markers.... seriously... :)

I will agree with the above posters who say its not a 100% indicator. I'll be hatching out at least 4-5 clutches of 100% het pieds this year and I'll post how many have the marker... That's information I've wanted for a while.

Justin

I think the markers are helpful but not 100% reliable. If I were buying a het and was picking between one with markers and one without I would probably go with the marker.

Lets go visual :)

Here's the picture version of my experience with markers...

CH Female that proved to be het pied, she's now nearly 4000g.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...a/DSCN6821.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...a/DSCN6823.jpg

Her 2005 Pastel son, proved 100% het pied
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...tel006_web.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...a/DSCN6824.jpg

Pics of two markered 50% offspring of above pastel het pied
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...a/DSCN7264.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...a/DSCN7585.jpg

Great pics Justin. That big girl makes the CB-70 tub look so small. So you had no idea she might have been het for pied before she proved out?

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Originally Posted by West Coast Jungle

Great pics Justin. That big girl makes the CB-70 tub look so small. So you had no idea she might have been het for pied before she proved out?

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Not a clue. the only thing I knew was that her son's back markings looked similar to hers. I noticed the bellies after they produced pieds when bred together.

I don't think she even knew that she was a het pied. She's never eaten like one! Shhhh... she might hear us.

Justin

I have 1.1 100% Het Pieds and neither of them have it. So in my world the 80% rule I read somewhere is total BS LOL!:D

I did see a Petsmart WC normal with the marker though, Wow, I thought what are the odds? Not that great I suppose. I believe like someone said before, some breeder with good business sense came up with a great marketing scheme to sell possibles.

For what it's worth - I have normals with awesome pied markers - and they pass on the markers to a majority of their offspring. IMO - the markers are a genetic phenotype not necessarily indicative of the pied gene. But I'm often wrong......

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Originally Posted by Surfer

I have 1.1 100% Het Pieds and neither of them have it. So in my world the 80% rule I read somewhere is total BS LOL!:D

I did see a Petsmart WC normal with the marker though, Wow, I thought what are the odds? Not that great I suppose. I believe like someone said before, some breeder with good business sense came up with a great marketing scheme to sell possibles.

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I have nothing to gain from relating my experience and my experience has not been minimal, and is continuing to grow. For those who feel that a striped belly is unrelated from the pied trait, I invite you to purchase any poss het pieds that I sell without markers because I will sell them for a fraction of the price! So for me this is not a way to make extra money.

I really do wish that there were no het pied markers. Because I believe their are, I cannot and will not in good conscience sell an unmarkered possible het for the same price as a markered one.

I will openly post any findings that I discover in my breedings. This year should give a lot of data in the debate and I will post all of it in the my official clutch thread. Like all of you I'm only interested in discovering the truth and understanding the animals better!

Justin

Wow Justin! I knew that you hit the BP lotto... but never knew the specifics...That's just amazing!!! So, Do you believe that pieds would have been produced if you had bred the mother to a established pied line... say a proven 100% het pied male... or do you think that breeding back to her son had something to do with it?

And have you tried proving out any other CH snakes with the markers?

*Great thread guys* :D

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Originally Posted by Laooda

Wow Justin! I knew that you hit the BP lotto... but never knew the specifics...That's just amazing!!! So, Do you believe that pieds would have been produced if you had bred the mother to a established pied line... say a proven 100% het pied male... or do you think that breeding back to her son had something to do with it?

And have you tried proving out any other CH snakes with the markers?

*Great thread guys* :D

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I did hit the lotto :)

I'm sure that my ch girl is a typical het pied (aside from being a new line). I had just never bred her to the correct male so that I could prove her before last year.

She's breeding this year to my piebald male :)

I'm breeding several clutches this year of Pied x Normal with markers... I don't really expect much from them, (except het pieds), but I'll report any findings!

Justin

Well I'm keeping my fingers crossed for you! And look forward to hearing what you produce! :)

speaking of petsmart hets. this male i got for free from petsmart because they couldn't get rid of mites.......go figure. any way looks at his belly. i know its not for certain but i will definately try to prove him out.

http://www.ball-pythons.net/gallery/...0/dsc00681.jpg

I have two 100% het pieds and both have similar bellies. I do not believe it is always the case, but it seems to be a good indicator. Honestly if all het pieds had the marker, I think hets/piebalds would be considered co-dom rather than a simple recessive!

This post from kingsnake... interesting influence of the het pied trait on cinnimons. These are cinnimons 100% het pieds.

http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=1518598,1518598

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Originally Posted by jkobylka

This post from kingsnake... interesting influence of the het pied trait on cinnimons. These are cinnimons 100% het pieds.

http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=1518598,1518598

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That is very interesting, looks like a ringer. I think the super cinny pied would be very cool:cool:

My 100% male has the marker.
personally, you cant go wrong by trying to prove out a marker.

idk if i would get a snake just because it has a marker. but i do know that if i was choosing between a couple pos hets, my money would be going towards one with a marker...

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Originally Posted by West Coast Jungle

That is very interesting, looks like a ringer. I think the super cinny pied would be very cool:cool:

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or a pewter pied!!:D:D

With all this talk about het or not...you need to prove each case out...I applaud Justin with his findings.. To those that have normal in apperance females with a marker why are not trying to prove yours out. As many larger breeders do sell lower priced hets to the box stores as normals....Even het to het will produce normal looking babies that could be hets....Dont you love this hobby....

Here is my male pastel that i saved for my dinker project possible het pied and yes he has the markers but came from africa so don't know his parents. He was bred this year to a pastel 100% het pied female so we will see. Pastel pieds would be great:gj:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3125/...b147a011c0.jpg

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Originally Posted by KMS

With all this talk about het or not...you need to prove each case out...I applaud Justin with his findings.. To those that have normal in apperance females with a marker why are not trying to prove yours out. As many larger breeders do sell lower priced hets to the box stores as normals....Even het to het will produce normal looking babies that could be hets....Dont you love this hobby....

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Right you are, your petstore bp may not be a normal, especially if its a male... and especially if you buy from my local petstore! ;)

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Originally Posted by Repti-Rob

Here is my male pastel that i saved for my dinker project possible het pied and yes he has the markers but came from africa so don't know his parents. He was bred this year to a pastel 100% het pied female so we will see. Pastel pieds would be great:gj:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3125/...b147a011c0.jpg

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Good luck! One thing I've learned is, YOU NEVER KNOW!

Here are some of my females that are hets or possible hets...

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b2...SassyBelly.jpg

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b2...es/THBelly.jpg

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b2...HetPied07F.jpg

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b2.../BayoBelly.jpg

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b2...s/AyoBelly.jpg

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b2.../DayoBelly.jpg

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b2...akes/PHF05.jpg

OK, heres a good one for you. I've got a het pied male that I got from Ralph. He does NOT have the het pied markers. I bred him to a normal female, who also does NOT have the het pied markers. I hatched 3 babies from the eggs she produced. All of them were male, but 2 of the 3 DID have the het pied markers, even though the parents don't..... Now explain THAT one.

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Originally Posted by MarkS

OK, heres a good one for you. I've got a het pied male that I got from Ralph. He does NOT have the het pied markers. I bred him to a normal female, who also does NOT have the het pied markers. I hatched 3 babies from the eggs she produced. All of them were male, but 2 of the 3 DID have the het pied markers, even though the parents don't..... Now explain THAT one.

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Ahah... Fascinating.... :)

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Originally Posted by MarkS

OK, heres a good one for you. I've got a het pied male that I got from Ralph. He does NOT have the het pied markers. I bred him to a normal female, who also does NOT have the het pied markers. I hatched 3 babies from the eggs she produced. All of them were male, but 2 of the 3 DID have the het pied markers, even though the parents don't..... Now explain THAT one.

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I think your situation would be an illustration that the markers are not tied to individual animal, sire or dame but are the usual expression of the heterozygous trait.

So even if your het pied does not have them, its het pied offspring will still usually have the marker because that is the most common expression.

Basically it has nothing to do with mom or dad, it has to do with het pieds, which in most cases display the marker trait regardless.

Whatcha think?

Justin

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jkobylka

Basically it has nothing to do with mom or dad, it has to do with het pieds, which in most cases display the marker trait regardless.

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It will be interesting to note which ones in that batch that I posted are actually het pieds...

Some of them don't have the markers either..

But do the ones with markers out of a het pied clutch always prove out, is the better question???

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jkobylka

I think your situation would be an illustration that the markers are not tied to individual animal, sire or dame but are the usual expression of the heterozygous trait.

So even if your het pied does not have them, its het pied offspring will still usually have the marker because that is the most common expression.

Basically it has nothing to do with mom or dad, it has to do with het pieds, which in most cases display the marker trait regardless.

Whatcha think?

Justin

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Makes sense to me, another thing to note is that the father is pretty banded, so I wonder if that makes a difference on the pattern of the markers?

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Originally Posted by LadyOhh

But do the ones with markers out of a het pied clutch always prove out, is the better question???

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That really is the real question...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MarkS

Makes sense to me, another thing to note is that the father is pretty banded, so I wonder if that makes a difference on the pattern of the markers?

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I think that any time there is a genetic pattern morph at work it can certainly affect markers. The only experience I really have is with pastels, they certainly do not show markers the same way or as strongly because the pastel tends to clear the belly of pattern.

Justin

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MarkS

OK, heres a good one for you. I've got a het pied male that I got from Ralph. He does NOT have the het pied markers. I bred him to a normal female, who also does NOT have the het pied markers. I hatched 3 babies from the eggs she produced. All of them were male, but 2 of the 3 DID have the het pied markers, even though the parents don't..... Now explain THAT one.

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I'm in a similar situation...

I actually sought Justin's help via PM's with a ton of questions and he was a tremendous help! :) *Thanks again Justin*

My het pieds that do NOT have the markers:
(I have no reason to believe that they aren't hets, but I was not the original buyer... so I'm considering them both possibles for now)...
Produced 5 babies. One was a severely deformed and didn't make it through hatching... but out of the 4 that I have, they have markers... some not very strong, but still interesting!
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c7...2008/1HbxR.jpg
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c7...2008/2HBxR.jpg
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c7...2008/3HBxR.jpg
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c7...2008/4HbXr.jpg

More food for thought! :D

I love that we're getting all of this collaboration! Just people sharing their experience, gathering it collectively and hopefully coming to conclusions... ;) This is what makes bp.net great!

Justin

Can someone explain to a noob what the markers are?

Another question, too. There is a normal ball at PetSmart near me that has a white spot on him. He is all normal till this spot near his tail and it stands out like crazy. Deformity? Something special? I wasnt sure what to make of it. Maybe I will take a pic tonight and show it.

Something to consider, i have heard many people say they have normals that have the markers and that these animals are not hets. While this may be true, you really dont know if your "normals" are not hets unless you breed them to pied stock to find out.

There have been a few people who have produced surprise pieds from import females that have markers.

I have two females that have markers, and produce babies with markers. I have one older female with markers , who's duaghter with markers just gave me a clutch , some of wich had the markers, clearly passing the markers along for three generations, Now if onky I would not have sold my pied!

Nick

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nick Mutton

Something to consider, i have heard many people say they have normals that have the markers and that these animals are not hets. While this may be true, you really dont know if your "normals" are not hets unless you breed them to pied stock to find out.

There have been a few people who have produced surprise pieds from import females that have markers.

I have two females that have markers, and produce babies with markers. I have one older female with markers , who's duaghter with markers just gave me a clutch , some of wich had the markers, clearly passing the markers along for three generations, Now if onky I would not have sold my pied!

Nick

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ANYTHING can happen! I do know for a fact that not all "markered normals" are hets. I've tried to prove them out, unsuccessfully...

Justin

Here's a great clip of Ralph Davis looking through a het pied clutch and pointing out markered and unmarkered 100% hets.

You Tube Video

More info for the discussion!

Justin

Some have markers, some don't. Its that simple. :banana:

Thanks for posting that Justin, it's a good example of what the markers do look like when the snakes have them. It is interesting that so many hets do have them. I wonder what the difference is?

Sorry if this is a repeat question.

But what if one that is not a pied has the marker?
Wouldn't that prove that its just a completely random trait?

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Originally Posted by blackcrystal22

Sorry if this is a repeat question.

But what if one that is not a pied has the marker?
Wouldn't that prove that its just a completely random trait?

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It would prove that is can be a random trait. You're right!

But IMO it is not completely random. This year I'll produce 20-30 het pied eggs and I'll wager that 90%+ will have the marker... so far I'm at 100% with the maker.

The real question is how good an indicator is the marker when you're dealing with possible het pieds. I definitely don't think that every non-markered poss. het is a normal.

Justin

Well...

Update:

My poss het Pied WITHOUT markers did not prove out this year.

I produced 12 100% het pieds so far this year-8 of those have the markers, 4 do not.

Here is a possible possible het pied girl I'm keeping.

http://homevtour.home.comcast.net/~h..._belly_med.jpg

About 50% of the babies across two clutches got the 50% chance het dad's markers but most of the best quality ones where males except for this one.

Randy, that is typical of the "marker" that I look for in my pos. hets. I have 2 females that I'm trying this year. Every single 100% het I have produced have the marker and half of the 50% pos. hets have had it. I think what people don't realise is, that some normals do have a striped belly, but in a side by side comparison, it's apples and oranges. Pete Kahl wouldn't have sold all of his 100% hets, and kept all his 66% pos. hets if something wasn't going on. He is the one that discovered it. And I also agree, not all 100% hets will have it.....and it's most useful when buying pos. hets.

Like Justin said, it's not just about the stripes on the belly. See that yellow smudging on Randy's animal? I would bet that girl is a 100% het. Good luck with her.

Brandon Osborne