Dog Food For Rats?

rats arent popular pets here and there are no available rodent foods like mazuri,harlan and zeigler here, so the only thing available that's big enough not to go through my 1/2 inch mesh is dog food. i was wondering if this might affect their breeding, litter size etc..

i would like to hear from your experiences. thank you very much.

raymond

I've been feeding dog food for a couple of years, seems to work OK though I have been supplementing a bit with table scraps lately.

Isn't it too high on protein alone? I am hoping that someone with a more scientific background than I will chime in. I know that many use the higher-quality dog food in their mixes.
I would see about mail-ordering lab blocks offline. I use the SunSeed brand name.

Depends on the Dog food. I use a brand that has 18% protein, which is the same as most rodent chows. You have to shop around a bit to find the right one.

this is what i am hoping to feed them:
Crude Protein min 21%
Crude Fat min 10%
Fibre max 3.5%
Moisture approx 8%

the name of the brand is vitality classic.

what are the negative effects on feeding them a high protein diet?:confuzd:

thank you

raymond

Make sure there are no dye's in the dog food.

yes, i already made sure that there are no red dyes and vitality is not part of the food recall by the fda.

thank you.

Raymond

There are rats out there with allergies to certain food products, and having too high of protein can cause skin problems, and internal organ problems, and I think urinary tract problems.
I don't know the specifics, but it's best to get dog food that has no more than 18% protein for nursing mothers. I think 21% is too high, and your better off mimicking Mazuri or Harlan for percentages of protein, fiber, and ingredients.

I could be massively wrong about this, perhaps Becky will chime in on the specifics.

Raymond, have you tried contacting feed stores in your area? They may be able to order the rodent block for you if they don't stock it already.

Yea, where are you located, I'm sure there are some members close by or have been around that can help you locate some rat feed. ;)

philippines. i already asked around. they dont have block food. they feed the rodents here purina 300. i think its for poultry or something. my brother lives in CA. i can stock up on block food when i visit him around june.i can get maybe a year's worth of food. how long does it take for the block food to expire?

I'm not going to sit up here and say I feed this this and this I feed freakin dog food...

The block food expires after 6 months. I know there are people that feed hog feed, Blue Ribbon is the name. If you have a chance, check out the ingredients of whatever feed you do decide on. Rat's cannot digest alfalfa, so thats a big no no. Again, I say if you can print a copy of the ingredients to Purina's Mazuri or Harlan Teklad Global Diets, and try to get the closest match in protein, fiber, and ingredients, you should be off to a good start.

ok. i will. thank you connie

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

The block food expires after 6 months. I know there are people that feed hog feed, Blue Ribbon is the name. If you have a chance, check out the ingredients of whatever feed you do decide on. Rat's cannot digest alfalfa, so thats a big no no. Again, I say if you can print a copy of the ingredients to Purina's Mazuri or Harlan Teklad Global Diets, and try to get the closest match in protein, fiber, and ingredients, you should be off to a good start.

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Check the ingredients of Mazuri 5M30 6F is there alfalfa meal on that ingredient list?

I know there is alfalfa in Mazuri, but it is not the main ingredient and is more of a filler. Just something we have to deal with. Rat's still cannot digest it, so yes, Mazuri shouldnt have it but they do.

i currently feed my hooded rats Vitality value meal. its made up of:
Crude Protein min 20%
Crude Fat min 10%
Fibre max 3.5%
Moisture approx 8%


that's the closest to block food that i can find here.

thank you

That brand looks pretty good ingredient wise. Just a note, if your one or more of your animals does get scabs on the face, neck and behind the ears or scratches incessantly it will most likely be a food allergy (If you've ruled out Lice and Mites already), and those allergies are quite genetic.

As an example, I have a male rat that we held back 3 off spring from, females. He has allergies to certain foods (fatty foods from scraps, he no longer gets scraps) and he will get scabs on his face and neck for weeks. 2 of his 3 daughters also exhibit those same allergies, just not to the same degree of severity.

If you do have rats that display allergies to the dog food, it may be wise to not hold back any from those litters. Especially since you cannot get anything else.

Good luck with your future litters! :gj:

:)yes. ill check them regularly for allergies. so far, they're doing good on that kind of dog food. thank you.

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

I know there is alfalfa in Mazuri, but it is not the main ingredient and is more of a filler.

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Mazuri uses it as a filler? That's interesting information. Would you mind citing any references that corroborate this? Thanks.

Repeat after me

Regal Rat Food is the best.

http://www.oxbowhay.com/link.sp?page=RegalRat

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Originally Posted by Desert

Mazuri uses it as a filler? That's interesting information. Would you mind citing any references that corroborate this? Thanks.

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I'm sorry, are you doubting that rats cannot digest alfalfa? I wont make this case for you, do your own research. I use only Mazuris 6F for all of my rats. Alfalfa is low on the list for ingredients, meaning that not much is used and it is not one of the main ingredients. If you dont like that answer, find your own.

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

I'm sorry, are you doubting that rats cannot digest alfalfa? I wont make this case for you, do your own research. I use only Mazuris 6F for all of my rats. Alfalfa is low on the list for ingredients, meaning that not much is used and it is not one of the main ingredients. If you dont like that answer, find your own.

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I suppose my answer to your inquiry about the alfalfa needs an addendum. Rats can digest some parts of alfalfa, but not well. They do process the protein from alfalfa comparatively well, but the grasses and certain parts of alfalfa isn't.

There are many, many journals out there with a lot of different takes on how rats digest certain parts and extracts of alfalfa, and with a description of 'alfalfa meal' on the ingredients list, we can't be sure what product of alfalfa is being fed.

It's generally a good rule of thumb that kaytee and generic brands of rat feed with alfalfa (being the main ingredient) is different from mazuris in how it's processed and used in the feed.

Mazuri is still undoubtedly one of the best feeds on the market, second to Harlan and Oxbow.

Feed low in alfalfa is better than one based solely on alfalfa.

I feed diamond dog food.....the maintainance formula....it is just big enough it sits on the 1/2 in screen great! The only appreciable difference in nutrition between it and lab blocks is that it is a little low on fiber. So I give them stuff like dry pasta, and things for that. Then give my nursing mamas straight beef fat to make there milk richer. I've had no problems so far....

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

I'm sorry, are you doubting that rats cannot digest alfalfa?

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No need to apologise, I'm happy to clarify. I had asked you to corroborate your statement that Mazuri uses the alfalfa meal as a filler, by citing a reference.

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Originally Posted by TheMissingLink

Repeat after me

Regal Rat Food is the best.

http://www.oxbowhay.com/link.sp?page=RegalRat

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Thats some expencive stuff! Is it pelated like Lab blocks?

Go Mazuri!:D

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Originally Posted by Desert

No need to apologise, I'm happy to clarify. I had asked you to corroborate your statement that Mazuri uses the alfalfa meal as a filler, by citing a reference.

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Riiiiiight.... did you even read my posts? :rolleyes: I dont owe you anything I'm afraid. It was a suggestion or better, an idea that it is a filler... I honestly don't care if you want a reference or not. Why don't you email Purina and ask them? :cool:

i find it interesting that the oxbow site sells the regal rat food as adult PET rat food.it seems to me that 14% protein and 4% fat are a bit low for breeders.

how long have you been using it? i guess if it works well that's all that counts.

sometimes i think that the popular "accepted" %'s are just a rough guide line.my rats seem to do great on a variety of different feeds i've used over the years.have fun!

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Originally Posted by TheMissingLink

Repeat after me

Regal Rat Food is the best.

http://www.oxbowhay.com/link.sp?page=RegalRat

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Originally Posted by twh

i find it interesting that the oxbow site sells the regal rat food as adult PET rat food.it seems to me that 14% protein and 4% fat are a bit low for breeders.

how long have you been using it? i guess if it works well that's all that counts.

sometimes i think that the popular "accepted" %'s are just a rough guide line.my rats seem to do great on a variety of different feeds i've used over the years.have fun!

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I whole heartedly agree with this. Pet rats aren't being used mainly for breeding and dont need the same amounts as breeders. It's usually best to go with a higher percentage of protein for nursing mothers. A lot of people have success up to 18%- 20% protein, given that no skin problems occur.

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

Riiiiiight.... did you even read my posts? :rolleyes: I dont owe you anything I'm afraid. It was a suggestion or better, an idea that it is a filler... I honestly don't care if you want a reference or not. Why don't you email Purina and ask them? :cool:

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You made an authoritative statement about an important product. You were asked to back it up with a reference. You responded with childish sarcasm and condescention along the path towards downgrading your statement from that of fact, to an idea. Thankyou for the clarification.

While I don't understand why a search for the truth would generate the childishness I've witnessed here, I will suggest that simply redressing your statement at the onset would have been a more prudent (and polite) choice for you.

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Originally Posted by twh

i find it interesting that the oxbow site sells the regal rat food as adult PET rat food.it seems to me that 14% protein and 4% fat are a bit low for breeders.

how long have you been using it? i guess if it works well that's all that counts.

sometimes i think that the popular "accepted" %'s are just a rough guide line.my rats seem to do great on a variety of different feeds i've used over the years.have fun!

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Because of the price i only use this twice a week. Rest of the week i go with the mix in the feeder section.

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Originally Posted by Desert

You made an authoritative statement about an important product. You were asked to back it up with a reference. You responded with childish sarcasm and condescention along the path towards downgrading your statement from that of fact, to an idea. Thankyou for the clarification.

While I don't understand why a search for the truth would generate the childishness I've witnessed here, I will suggest that simply redressing your statement at the onset would have been a more prudent (and polite) choice for you.

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I still fail to see how the use of alfalfa in Mazuri is so important that any claims on what the purpose it carries has to be met with a citation. I think you over reacted to how 'authoritative' my comments are. I'll repost it for your viewing pleasure.

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

I know there is alfalfa in Mazuri, but it is not the main ingredient and is more of a filler. Just something we have to deal with. Rat's still cannot digest it, so yes, Mazuri shouldnt have it but they do.

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I don't see how that is so authoritative, and I can't make you read my posts any differently. Sorry you feel so mislead.
But again, I still don't have to make any points for you, more so when I don't believe I stated it as a fact. I've already explained why. I'm sorry you don't like that, but its the truth. Good job for derailing this thread. :gj:

Yea, you sure bring out the best in me Desert. I may have been condescending and tart, from here on out I will remain ambiguous in my responses about alfalfa in rat feed. The main reason I don't have a citation for you is because my info is word of mouth from different rat forums I am a member of. It's said by many rat owners to avoid feeds with corn as one of the first ingredients and alfalfa. If it's lower down on the list, then its ok.

I dont like to cite other forums, since they too are not scientific and have no citations to where their info is from. It hardly qualifies except for their experience and having close interactions with their rats daily. I believe them and take their recommendations seriously solely because I know they are meticulous about what they feed rats. (They as in serious pet rat keepers)
I actually had to go and drag up the post I read this from, I hope this is the end to these cherades, it's out of my hands.
http://www.ratforum.com/Forums/viewtopic/p=22956.html

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 4:30 pm Post subject: which food? Reply with quote
I am going to give you the ingredient lists for 2 different types of rat blocks. Tell me which one you think would be better to feed my rats.

Rat Block 1

Dehulled soybean meal, wheat middlings, ground corn, corn gluten meal, can molasses, soybean oil, ground wheat, dried whey, dicalcium phosphate, calcium carbonate, salt, choline chloride, magnesium oxide, niacin, vitamin A supplement, biotin, pyridoxine hydrochloride, thiamine monomitrate, vitamin D3 supplement, folic acid, menadione sodium bisulfite complex, vitamin E supplement, vitamin B12 supplement, riboflavin, calcium panthothenate, propionic acid (a preservative), ferrous sulfate, manganous oxide, zinc oxide, copper sulfate, calcium iodate, cobalt carbonate, chromium potassium sulfate.


Rat Block 2

Ground corn, dehulled soybean meal, wheat middlings, ground wheat, soybean oil, fish meal, cane molasses, porcine meat meal, ground oats, brewers dried yeast, wheat germ, dried beet pulp, dehydrated alfalfa meal, calcium carbonate, dried whey, salt, calcium propionate (a preservative), menadione dimethylpyrimidinol bisulfite (vitamin K), choline chloride, dried yucca shidigera extract, DL-methionine, vitamin A acetate, choleclciferol tocopheryl acetate (natural source vitamin E), thiamin mononitrate, folic acid, nicotinic acid, calcium pantothenate, cyanocobalmin (vitamin B12), riboflavin, manganous oxide, zinc oxide, ferrous carbonate, copper sulfate, zinc sulfate, calcium iodate, cobalt carbonate...

PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 4:29 am Post subject: Re: which food? Reply with quote
the bottom one seems to have a lot of fillers for my taste. when i look for foods for my rats i look at where in the list the corn is, generally the further back the better as the further back you do the less of that substance is in the mix. but in this case not only is the second one with corn at the front but there is alfalfa which has absolutely no nutritional value whatsoever but will trick them into thinking they're fuller then what they are. alfalfa is hard to digest so takes longer to go through too and can cause indestion in rats as well.

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What is the issue? Alfalfa is not digestible by rats, and is unneeded in their feed. To advise anyone against feeding it, is to advise them that it's just filler that you don't need to pay for! If alfalfa were good for rats, who wouldn't get a huge, cheap bag of alfalfa rabbit pellets for all of their rats? I wish that they Would eat it!

For pet rats, alot of owners reccomend Innova Senior, Nutro Lite, Natural Balance Vegetarian Formula or Wellness Lite dog food (in supplement to the other homemade feed mix).
I just know about rat care, period- nothing about breeding- but these loverly folks have mentioned that breeding rats require more protein so I'll take their word for it. ;)

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

I dont like to cite other forums, since they too are not scientific and have no citations to where their info is from. It hardly qualifies except for their experience and having close interactions with their rats daily.

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Understood, however unless relevant study methods are observed we really don't know what we have, do we. I know you are trying to help but such blanket anecdotal condemnations rarely work in all instances. Blanket condemnation of use of alfalfa is no more reasonable than using it where it is not indicated.

Nutrition studies have demonstrated that the soluble constituents of alfalfa were important for weight gain and nitrogen retention in rats when combined with a high protein ration, and also demonstrated that the soluble constituents were actually about two-thirds to three quarter digested by rats. The dietary alfalfa component actually increased weight gain in the study rats. The point here is that the much lower alfalfa component in the discussed brand appears to not be a 'filler' and the premise that it doesn't belong there appears to be flawed.

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Originally Posted by Desert

Nutrition studies have demonstrated that the soluble constituents of alfalfa were important for weight gain and nitrogen retention in rats when combined with a high protein ration, and also demonstrated that the soluble constituents were actually about two-thirds to three quarter digested by rats. The dietary alfalfa component actually increased weight gain in the study rats. The point here is that the much lower alfalfa component in the discussed brand appears to not be a 'filler' and the premise that it doesn't belong there appears to be flawed.

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Now those words sound extremely familiar? Care to site your source?

My point, I have already said alfalfa is somewhat digestable, but very well. It is not preferred by rats in any of the studies, and in the case of purina, i would imagine the use of dehydrated alfalfa is just like you said. For the sake of keeping other rat breeders from buying the cheap rat feed because of the main ingredient being alfalfa, there is nothing wrong with saying that alfalfa is not good for rats.

If you wish to make your point, you should put the whole study without any cuts. I've read the article your referring to, and while you may have gotten the gist of it, there is more information to be had on the entire study that you left out.

I notice that they have beet pulp in Mazuri. That is another filler...incase anyone wanted to know..lol.

See. this is why I prefer to mix my rat food. I use things like uncooked tricolor pasta; Kashi cereal, Cheerios, high-quality dog food w/ no more than 20% protein.. unsalted nuts.. the like. Take Becky's rat-food mixture; it is an awesome reference. I don't like merely feeding something with filler. This is why I don't even base my feed mix on lab blocks anymore, and I am even phasing out the pig feed that I used. Why? The rats don't eat it. It sits aside while they go for the cereals, and "goodies" provided. I am still researching things, but I plan on mixing my rat feed with an eye towards palatability and nutrition, not toward filler.
All of the things that I am using in my updated feed mix are things that you can get at a grocery store!

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

Now those words sound extremely familiar? Care to site your source?

My point, I have already said alfalfa is somewhat digestable, but very well. It is not preferred by rats in any of the studies, and in the case of purina, i would imagine the use of dehydrated alfalfa is just like you said. For the sake of keeping other rat breeders from buying the cheap rat feed because of the main ingredient being alfalfa, there is nothing wrong with saying that alfalfa is not good for rats.

If you wish to make your point, you should put the whole study without any cuts. I've read the article your referring to, and while you may have gotten the gist of it, there is more information to be had on the entire study that you left out.

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I'm a physiologist, which means I'm perfectly capable of understanding what I'm reading, and knowing what I know.
Those are my words, not a copy/paste as you insinuate.
If I had copy/pasted from an 'article' I'd cite the article. This stuff is common knowledge in relevant academic circles. Now having said all this, I'm a little weary of having to wade through your constant personal posturing in this thread, so this will be my last post in it. Good day.

What does corn do to rats? Is it a filler? I know it will fatten them up, I just put some squirrel food in with there lab blocks, it has corn in it.

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Originally Posted by Desert

I'm a physiologist, which means I'm perfectly capable of understanding what I'm reading, and knowing what I know.
Those are my words, not a copy/paste as you insinuate.
If I had copy/pasted from an 'article' I'd cite the article. This stuff is common knowledge in relevant academic circles. Now having said all this, I'm a little weary of having to wade through your constant personal posturing in this thread, so this will be my last post in it. Good day.

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If you can get away with not citing because its such "common knowledge in relevant academic circles" then I think your pestering for a citation from me is moot.

I see some very strong similarities between your "common knowledge" and this study, which has the rest of the story for anyone that wishes to read it.
http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/reprint/54/2/237.pdf

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Experiments were designed to test the utilization of alfalfa
and three alfalfa fiber fractions -namely, extracted alfalfa,
holocellulose, and lignin -through the use of paired-feeding
techniques, nitrogen balances, and digestibility. Alfalfa lignin
was not utilized for weight gains or nitrogen retention but
was digested to a small extent only when fed in conjunction
with low-protein rations. Alfalfa holocellulose was not utilized
for weight gains or nitrogen retention when fed with a highprotein
ration but did support a small weight increase and
nitrogen retention when fed with a low-protein ration. From
8 to 14% of the holocellulose was apparently digested.
Alfalfa extracted with water and a benzene-alcohol mixture
was utilized to a very small extent as an energy source ; how
ever, its nitrogn was utilized. Approximately 12% of the
organic matter of the extracted alfalfa was apparently di
gested. In comparison, the soluble constituents of alfalfa
were important for weight gain and nitrogen retention. The
soluble constituents were from 69 to 75% digested.

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Originally Posted by stangs13

What does corn do to rats? Is it a filler? I know it will fatten them up, I just put some squirrel food in with there lab blocks, it has corn in it.

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Stangs, I'm not very sure on the corn rumor. I know many rat people avoid it because of the 'toxic mold' scare. I would imagine that is the main reason they dont like it.

I actually added in some cracked corn. I see them nibble on it. I really don't plan on adding more, as there are better things in there (Kashi, cheerios, puffed rice, other cereals, uncooked tricolor pasta.) I have decided to keep using the Mazuri blocks though. I also add in a bag of parrot food, with all of the fun dehydrated fruits, nuts, etc. that they like as well. I also add unsalted in-shell peanuts, pig feed (no antibiotics) rolled oats, a few small-sized horse treats (not alfalfa) and the high-quality dog food (brand differs.)

Sorry to butt into everyones convo on corn, but can someone please provide the exact name of dog food they use for rats that have worked?

I buy my rat food from a feed store. There are quite a few feed stores around me that I can buy from. They just have to order it for me. Hope this helps. :cool:

same ? as Beardedragon...............anyone care to name some exact brands of dog food that they have used for multiple generations?

Science Diet senior. It is expensive, but along with the other things that I mix in, it gets "watered down" a bit. Just saying; I don't feed just dog food. But there are yummy, cheaper things in my mix suchas the unsalted nuts, cheerios, etc.

im using Vitality value meal mixed with vitality classic. i think its ok cos i got my first litter this afternoon!:banana::banana:

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Originally Posted by Desert

You made an authoritative statement about an important product. You were asked to back it up with a reference. You responded with childish sarcasm and condescention along the path towards downgrading your statement from that of fact, to an idea. Thankyou for the clarification.

While I don't understand why a search for the truth would generate the childishness I've witnessed here, I will suggest that simply redressing your statement at the onset would have been a more prudent (and polite) choice for you.

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omg shaddup already!