Curiosity and genetics...overbite?

I had the opportunity to buy some baby [2 days old] ball pythons with severe overbites. And I did, out of simple curiosity. I not a new keeper, so raising balls right out of the egg doesn't phase me.
I'm thinking...At worst, it's genetic and I cull it's babies and have a nice pet. I am not lacking in space. Or they never eat and is effectively culled. At best, I breed it's babies back to it to ensure it was incubation/environmental and go on with life.
Their lower jaw is whole, and correct, but not to scale, aka it's much smaller than the top jaw, which is whole, correct and the correct size. From what I can tell, it does have a tongue and can close their mouths fine. Just got back from a show and my camera's batteries are re-charging. Probably have pictures tomorrow.
Anyone else ever have this happen? Did you keep them to see if they could lead a normal life? or immediately cull? I bought a male and female from the clutch of 9, the seller was not the breeder so I was not able to get many questions answered. They get along fine so far, drinking and moving and such. All 9 showed this exact overbite.

was the whole clutch like that? i've never heard of it.... but that's not surprising! lol. looking forward to pics! good luck with these little guys!

I've seen that - it's thought to be genetic.

The ones I saw appear to eat fine. I think it's an ethical decision of the breeder whether to attempt to breed them. I personally would not.

Yes, I've seen babies with overbites at local shows. From what I know and have heard it's genetic. I know I would not breed two snakes that are related who have genetic flaws together. The babies will be inbred and could possible have the same problem or a worse genetic flaw. I'd just keep them as pets.

Does anyone have a pix? I'm curious to see one now!

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Originally Posted by rabernet

I think it's an ethical decision of the breeder whether to attempt to breed them. I personally would not.

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Bingo!

I've been kicking around for a while now, and even this is new to me.

The male
http://img2.putfile.com/thumb/6/16808255299.jpg
http://img2.putfile.com/thumb/6/16808255243.jpg
http://img2.putfile.com/thumb/6/16808255294.jpg

The female
http://img2.putfile.com/thumb/6/16808255342.jpg
http://img2.putfile.com/thumb/6/16808255333.jpg

Hm.. is i proven to be genetic? If not, someone should at least try breeding them to see if it is..
That female has a pretty pattern on her head; wow..!
How would you cull the babies? I don't like the idea of killing them off, which is what I think of when I hear the word cull..

Everyone I talked to before and after buying were in agreement " i have no idea, i've never seen that happen to a whole clutch" [sic] lol.
The female is a near patternless spider.
http://img2.putfile.com/thumb/6/16808255357.jpg

Yes, if it proves to be genetic I would 'cull' aka kill the babies and keep the adults as pets. Probably gas the same way I kill rodents.

Oh man; that is a stunning female spider :( Is the jury out as to whether/not overbite is genetic?

If you indeed did get offspring from those, and it proved to be genetic, I think the best thing to do would be to take them to the vet to have them properly euthanized...

For me, it wouldn't even be a question of would I breed them or not. It would be a flat-out No. Sub-par animals produce sub-par offspring, and I wouldn't even attempt to breed those two. Yes, the spider may be pretty, but the patterning could also be attributed to her deformity, and why take the risk?

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Originally Posted by SatanicIntention

For me, it wouldn't even be a question of would I breed them or not. It would be a flat-out No. Sub-par animals produce sub-par offspring, and I wouldn't even attempt to breed those two. Yes, the spider may be pretty, but the patterning could also be attributed to her deformity, and why take the risk?

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I'd have to agree with Becky on this. I would not even consider breeding these two.

"the patterning could also be attributed to her deformity"
Carl had that theory too, but more of a reasoning that it was environmental rather than genetic. Something was wrong with the temps so it affected them all and their pattern. Even some of the normals had a reduced pattern. Both parents were completely normal and have no history of 'wobble head'

"I think the best thing to do would be to take them [the offspring] to the vet to have them properly euthanized..."
I actually didn't even think of that, yes, that seems like the best option when and if i breed them.

"why take the risk?"
What risk? it's not like I have so many animals that their offspring in 3-4 years will get lost and accidentally sold as something they are not. I didn't buy this pair for re-sale. They aren't carrying a airborne disease. Simply writing off oddities and assuming anything isn't going to teach us anything. Yes, they are physically sub-par, and it's yet to be seen whether they are simply survivors or thrivers, but are they genetically? Wouldn't you be curious if you found a rabbit with 3 ears, or a dragon born without a tail?
And no, i didn't get a male and female to breed them together. all the spiders were female and all the normals were male [odd in of itself] and I wanted both a normal and morph. If i breed both, and over a couple years play with temps, incubators, substrates [but still in the normal range] different mates, etc and even breed each other's siblings back to them, and nothing pops up. How long should I go to prove it non-genetic?
I love these little puzzles, I pick up oddities anytime I can. I breed beardies, I know a money-toilet when I see one, but I love em. This pair was no investment, I don't see dollar signs when I see my animals, so why not?
To me it's not as simple as the one-eyed or no-eyed albino boas that's genetic from recessive in-breeding. With a dominant morph, there is no reason for this, so where did it come from?
Although I think I'm getting ahead of myself. They still have to shed for the first time and be able to eat. Although I can't get a pic of it [stupid camera] when i was handling them they started using their tongues and their heat pits look normal.
Since I am far from an expert, I take advice and criticism well, that's how we learn, but you can't tell me you aren't the least bit curious about something far from well-documented? :snake:

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Originally Posted by Mezclado_Reps

"t

"why take the risk?"
What risk? it's not like I have so many animals that their offspring in 3-4 years will get lost and accidentally sold as something they are not. I didn't buy this pair for re-sale. They aren't carrying a airborne disease. Simply writing off oddities and assuming anything isn't going to teach us anything.

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I agree, I really don't see what the risks are......

You may want to read this thread on the Derma ball throughly....its not so easy and black and white of an issue to label something as a "genetic flaw". If the morphological condition is genetic but the animals eat and survive in captivity then can it really be considered a "flaw" anymore than any other rare morph? Many of the designer morphs breed in captivity would likely not fare well in nature. Labeling something genetic as being "flawed", less fit, or a selective disadvantage depends on the environment in which the animal is subjected.

I remember seeing a picture of the derma ball a while ago. Also similiar to the "smootie" debate going on with beardies.

That is an interesting point. Many people think spiders with the wobbles are deformed in a way yet they live very healthy normal lives, eat well and behave normal other than that. Some say it's part of the morph and others think it's a defect yet they behave normal other than the head bobble. I would be concerned how those babies eat and if they can actually close their mouths correctly so they don't get prone to infection. That one definately looks spider but neither parents are spiders? weird but cool. Best of luck!
Whenever I breed an animal that is showing any signs of irregularites I give them away to anyone who wants a pet with special needs. I have only had this happen with beardies though not BP"s.

Sorry, i didn't say that correctly " hat one definately looks spider but neither parents are spiders?" The father was a spider. I meant both parents were 'normal' as in normal patterns and physically normal.

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Originally Posted by Mezclado_Reps

Both parents were completely normal and have no history of 'wobble head'

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I'm guessing that wobble head means a spinner. ALL spiders are spinners to some sort of degree. Some not so bad and it's actually hardly noticiable but it is in fact there. If you watched that snake for some time you'd be able to pick up on it. Then are others who are called train wreck spinners who spin horribly out of control.

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Originally Posted by Mezclado_Reps

Wouldn't you be curious if you found a rabbit with 3 ears, or a dragon born without a tail?

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Nope, I would write it off as a genectic deformanty and not even think about breeding that odd looking animal.

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Originally Posted by Mezclado_Reps

And no, i didn't get a male and female to breed them together.

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Originally Posted by Mezclado_Reps

If i breed both, and over a couple years play with temps, incubators, substrates [but still in the normal range] different mates, etc and even breed each other's siblings back to them, and nothing pops up. How long should I go to prove it non-genetic?

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So first quote you pretty much say you didn't get them to breed together, then second quote you say you are looking to breed them and possible even their off spring over the years. I'd personally and I know a lot of others here on this forum and in the herp world would not even breed them in the first place because they aren't perfect or top quality animals. I know most people breed there animals on quality and health. What if you do breed them together or to another non related snake and it does prove out to be genetic and you don't have the heart till euthunize them. What are you going to do? Take them to a local show, throw them up on the internet at a lower price because they aren't quality animals who indeed have flaws. What is someone else thinks the same exact thing as you are now and does the same thing when that snake reaches maturity. That person is going to have the same problems as you with it's genetic flaw and well yeah people are going to be breeding snakes that have bad over bites.

Then again I could be totally wrong but that's just me thinking this way. I know when I look to get an animal I look for quality and one without any kind of history with any kind of flaw. I'd specially want that if I were in fact a breeder who's going to have a reputation in this business and hobby world. I don't want someone going around saying "oh Ali breeds and sells snakes that have jaw problems and they look weird for a few extra bucks".

Eh that's just me, I look into everything very deep and list all the pros and cons for just about anything I do. I don't just jump on to something because it's an "oddity".

*You must spread some reputation around before giving it to Lillyorchid again*

Good post :)

"I know most people breed there animals on quality and health."
Yes, because they know when they sell them, they are going to effect the current gene pool. Mine will never leave my personal collection.

"What if you do breed them together or to another non related snake and it does prove out to be genetic and you don't have the heart till euthunize them."
Maybe if I was a wuss, which I am not. Sorry, but I' a very practical and ethical person. If something isn't up to par and I don't want to risk it even entering the gene pool, i'll put it down. Had a beardie whose left side was smaller than his right hatch out. Could he have lived a good life? yes, but too many unethical people out there so I froze him.
You have a very good post, but it doesn't really apply as this is an experiment, not part of my breeding projects.

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Originally Posted by Mezclado_Reps

Maybe if I was a wuss, which I am not. Sorry, but I' a very practical and ethical person. If something isn't up to par and I don't want to risk it even entering the gene pool, i'll put it down. Had a beardie whose left side was smaller than his right hatch out. Could he have lived a good life? yes, but too many unethical people out there so I froze him.
You have a very good post, but it doesn't really apply as this is an experiment, not part of my breeding projects.

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Why would you put down the offspring? You chose to allow these two to live, what makes them different than the offspring? Would you put these two down as well?

I think your idea of ethical and others might not quite be in alignment. Especially when it comes to "experimenting" with live animals that you plan to put down if they are hatched with the same birth defect.

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Originally Posted by rabernet

Why would you put down the offspring? You chose to allow these two to live, what makes them different than the offspring? Would you put these two down as well?

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If they live to adulthood. and if they produce, what would be the point of culling them then? They obviously survived this long, they can be pets. If their offspring show the trait, what would be the point of keeping them? I would probably see if they can shed and eat, but even if there are spiders in the clutch I have no desire for more pet animals and unless there is a way to spay or neuter them, I'm not letting them out of my collection. But read that first part again, that's a lot of 'ifs'.

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Originally Posted by rabernet

I think your idea of ethical and others might not quite be in alignment. Especially when it comes to "experimenting" with live animals that you plan to put down if they are hatched with the same birth defect.

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We wouldn't have 3/4 of the things we have today if I wasn't for experimentation. Some of it on live animals. I also think you are confusing ethics with morals. Do you believe I can't [legally] be able to euthanize animals I own? Or do you simply believe I shouldn't? btw, rats, snakes, rabbits, lizards, goats, etc are all animals and on the same level with me. Or do you not believe in ownership at all? but that we are the animals 'guardians'?
Honestly, I think I would breed 3 legged rats if they grew bigger and had more babies for feeders, lol. :snake:
Culling undesirables is a fact of life, breeders pick and choose all the time. I don't even know why this non-issue is a part of this discussion. Didn't see this thread coming, honestly, i saw us talking about if the breeder cut the eggs or if they got out on their own or something. Cause this is only headed one way - religion :rolleye2:

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If they live to adulthood. and if they produce, what would be the point of culling them then? They obviously survived this long, they can be pets. If their offspring show the trait, what would be the point of keeping them?

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For the same reason that you chose to keep these two? :confuzd:

Why would your ethics for the offspring you choose to produce be any different than for the two with birth defects that you want to "experiment" with?

What's the point of keeping these two RIGHT NOW if there's no point in keeping their offspring if they have the same birth defect in a few years? Your reasoning is flawed to me.

And it has nothing to do with religion, and everything to do with your logic, which you're not making a compelling argument that makes much sense to me.

Do you plan to publish your results of this "experiment" or is it just for your own personal curiosity? Usually experiments are to add to the collective knowledge of the community.

Your arguments thus far are that you just want to see what happens, which isn't a good enough reason, IMHO.

I've seen the Fauna thread..I am guessing ethics were thrown out the window a long time ago. Just sayin...

But carry on with the mad scientist experiments. I dig it!

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Originally Posted by rabernet

For the same reason that you chose to keep these two? :confuzd:

Why would your ethics for the offspring you choose to produce be any different than for the two with birth defects that you want to "experiment" with?

What's the point of keeping these two RIGHT NOW if there's no point in keeping their offspring if they have the same birth defect in a few years? Your reasoning is flawed to me.

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Because we don't know if it's genetic.

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Originally Posted by rabernet

Do you plan to publish your results of this "experiment" or is it just for your own personal curiosity? Usually experiments are to add to the collective knowledge of the community.

Your arguments thus far are that you just want to see what happens, which isn't a good enough reason, IMHO.

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If it was just for my personal curiosity, i wouldn't have posted about it. Several people here and my friends in the community have already emailed me to kept in the loop about what I find out, and i'm sure i'll post here in 3-4 years about what happens. Do you not consider this a community? as for publication, I doubt it other than the pages on my website.

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Originally Posted by Mezclado_Reps

Because we don't know if it's genetic.

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I'm curious... say this turns out to be a recessive trait and all the offspring appear normal. Will you disclose the abnormality of the sire and dame to your customers or will you continue to raise the offspring and breed them back to their parents in order determine if it is genetic or not?

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Originally Posted by Mezclado_Reps

If it was just for my personal curiosity, i wouldn't have posted about it.

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Must have been several statements here that confused me then - where you say it's for your personal curiosity on multiple occassions or ask others if they wouldn't be curious (and no - I personally am not)......:rolleyes:

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I had the opportunity to buy some baby [2 days old] ball pythons with severe overbites. And I did, out of simple curiosity.

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and this:

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Yes, they are physically sub-par, and it's yet to be seen whether they are simply survivors or thrivers, but are they genetically? Wouldn't you be curious if you found a rabbit with 3 ears, or a dragon born without a tail?

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and maybe this.....

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I love these little puzzles, I pick up oddities anytime I can.

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and finally this

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I take advice and criticism well, that's how we learn, but you can't tell me you aren't the least bit curious about something far from well-documented?

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Originally Posted by xdeus

I'm curious... say this turns out to be a recessive trait and all the offspring appear normal. Will you disclose the abnormality of the sire and dame to your customers or will you continue to raise the offspring and breed them back to their parents in order determine if it is genetic or not?

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That's correct.

Sorry, it should read "not JUST for my own personal curiosity" But i would be lying if i said i didn't pick them up out of personal curiosity.

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Originally Posted by xdeus

I'm curious... say this turns out to be a recessive trait and all the offspring appear normal. Will you disclose the abnormality of the sire and dame to your customers or will you continue to raise the offspring and breed them back to their parents in order determine if it is genetic or not?

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This is where the real ethical issue could arise in my opinion.....disclosure of the animals' history to potential customers. Many people don't like this abnormality and they shouldnt have to buy into this invisible variation unknowingly.

As far as euthanizing the offspring.....this would seem like a last resort to me. Why couldn't you keep these as pets as well if you had the space? And if they feed and are relatively healthy I would think you could find a buyer for the right price. Only if there are feeding and thriving problems in captivity should these animals be culled by euthanasia.

Since snakes are solidarity creatures that should most of the time be alone you wouldn't need to get them spade or neutered to prevent them from being culled from your breeding stock..just don't set them up in anymore breeding pairs.

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Originally Posted by Mendel's Balls

Only if there are feeding and thriving problems in captivity should these animals be culled by euthanasia.
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Woops Should read....Only if they are not feeding and thriving in captivity....

I still don't see why you want to breed them besides to prove if it's genetic or not if you just want them as pets. I know I have a 100% het pied that I could breed him to a pied next year... but am I going to do that absolutely not. Why? Because he is a train wreck spinner with some neurological problems and I don't want to risk his offspring having that flaw of being a spinner or having the trouble that I've seen him have in his short life already. I could be careless and breed him because *I* want to see what would happen in the outcome because *I* think it would be kind of cool to see what he would produce... if it be just a normal, pos het pied, het pied, pied but it would not be cool to have that flaw if it were recessive or genetic. It may not pop up, but those babies could be carriers and it could pop up later down the road. I personally know I wouldn't want to by a pied or a het pied that came from a spinner parent or had that flaw in it's line at all. I know I personally know Loopy's parents, grand parents, great grand parents... brothers, sisters, cousions etc none of them are spinners but for some reason he is and I'm not taking that chance to see if he will pass it on or not. Just not worth it if it does. Yes I could hold back all of the ones who have that problem if it were to show up, but I don't think that would be far to them to have to live like that. It would be quite selfish and to be honest some days I really wish I hadn't fought to keep Loopy alive because now I really see that yes he may have the best life possible for his problems now... but is he really happy or even comfortable? I now think back on it all and think it was very selfish of me to fight to keep him alive and around for so long. If it weren't for me, he wouldn't be here today. I'm a big believer in mother nature and to let it just run it's course... and I probably should have let it run it's course and let Pete put him down instead of fighting everyone and his own little self to keep him around. Loopy will always just be a pet and nothing more. I'm not going to play "guinea pig" with him to see if anything is hidden in his genes or not. Not worth it at all.

Agree or disagree but that's just me.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to jglass38 again.
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to lillyorchid again.



Ok to me, it seems an awful lot like BYB's. Any reputable breeder- in ANY form be it dogs, cat or reptiles- breed for health (and temperament). Those who don't care perpetuate things like hip dysplasia and the like. Well if nothing else, this post once again reitterates who I won't buy from in the future, but as Jamie said those of us who frequent another site already knew that.

To address your neg rep points:

"off topic. you got a problem, be an adult like the others and email or PM me."

Its not off topic at all. You apparent lack of ethics in business (see said thread) has now spilled over into these mad scientist type experiments.

If you want to be taken seriously as a breeder and as a business person, in my opinion this isn't the way.

Please correct me if I'm wrong since I'm no breeder but I thought the whole point in breeding was to make the blood lines stronger, better, different down the line. Won't this just be doing the complete opposite?

Yes I agree with Catawhat.. this does around a lot like "back yard breeders" who just throw two mutt dogs together just for one to pop out some puppies to sell for stupid amounts of money claiming it is actually a "real breed" of dog. Now that I've read most of the replies to this post, Mez I really hope you actually listen to what everyone has said.

I have to agree with what Sassy has just said. It seems to me, and perhaps I'm a tad naive here, but isn't the whole point of becoming a breeder to enhance a breed and bring out it's best potential? I don't care whether you're talking dogs, horses, snakes, whatever....it seems to me to purposely bring together two living creatures with obvious physical faults just makes absolutely no sense.

Mad scientist remark, very funny.
Breeding deformed animals, not funny.

Breed for beauty!

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Originally Posted by westcoastjungle

Mad scientist remark, very funny.
Breeding deformed animals, not funny.

Breed for beauty!

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This guy agrees! :rockon:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...entist.svg.png

I hate to change the subject but if you think freezing an animal alive is a humane way to euthinize it, I am kind of doubting that you really have these animals best interests in mind anyway.

My personal opinion is that purposely breeding a genetic flaw into an animal just to find out if it is a genetic trait is inhumane.

All that I am wondering is...if this "experiment" doesn't follow through, how will anyone know if this is a genetic trait? How will anyone know that a certain environmental factor(s) may be influencing this physical deformity? A control needs to be set up, as well as variables, in order to pin point the cause of this mystery. If we end it at "just keep them as pets," will others (who are not aware of this discussion) have a reason not to do it themselves?

Just my $.02

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Originally Posted by frankykeno

I have to agree with what Sassy has just said. It seems to me, and perhaps I'm a tad naive here, but isn't the whole point of becoming a breeder to enhance a breed and bring out it's best potential? I don't care whether you're talking dogs, horses, snakes, whatever....it seems to me to purposely bring together two living creatures with obvious physical faults just makes absolutely no sense.

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I think you are being naive on the real intentions of breeding. Wiener dogs have obvious physical faults (tones of skeletal and mobility problems) yet people bring them together to breed all the time. I really don't think breeding any organism has anything to do with bringing out "blood lines" that are stronger, better, etc. Stronger in what sense? In a human aesthetic sense? Stronger to serve some human need or function?

What I think most selective breeding has to do in most cases is creating an animal or plant for a specific human purpose or to make living art. By best potential if you mean faster horse, quicker greyhound, or brightest spider ball python then I understand what you are saying. But in order to push the envelope then breeders usually have to make a few mistakes on the way. They may end up concentrating some bad alleles as they attempt to achieve an animal with a certain look.....as long as the animal is somewhat healthy and can survive for some time it seems to be deemed appropriate and according to your standards "stronger".

Green_Man I have to agree and I'm glad I wasn't the only one who caught that. Then again she has been known to tell people to put "unwanted" eggs in the freezer or to :just throw them away". It doesn't surprise me at all that she puts live reptiles (and who knows what else) to sleep by freezing it to death in the freezer.

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Originally Posted by Mendel's Balls

I think you are being naive on the real intentions of breeding. Wiener dogs have obvious physical faults (tones of skeletal and mobility problems) yet people bring them together to breed all the time.

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You really don't want to know my very strong opinions on the breeding of purebred dogs that ends up with dogs that can no longer free whelp, have shortened life spans due to physical issues, have unstable temperments, etc. Sorrry but I'm not a person that agrees that breeding for the sake of a "look" should ever be more important than breeding for soundness, good temperment, faithfulness to the original intent of that breed. I'm not naive Mendel...not at all. I'm just far too nice to express my real opinion about people that breed in ways that make me pull my hair out and wonder where their brain is. Just because we can "bring them together" shouldn't give us the right to ruin them.

Dangit! You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to frankykeno again.

First of all, I agree with Jamie.:D Ethics and Sara do not go together very often.
Second of all, I saw these spiders with the overbites on reptile auction. Even at $10 a peice, they should not be bought with any thought of breeding.
I am guessing since the guy made it very clear these were to be pets only and not to be bred (hence the spuper low price) you did not say you might breed these eventually.

There should be no question. DO NOT BREED THESE!
Spiders have enough genetic quirks. You do not need to add to them.
ONLY the BEST quality animals should ever be bred.

Iam just curious did you buy them off of the reptile auction?

Guys,


Can we put a stop to the personal attacks and comments please?

It is perfectly possible to express your feeling and thoughts on the issue without resorting to them and they show neither side in a very good light.


dr del