Multimammate Mouse, Common African Rat, Soft-furred or African Soft-furred Rat

So I saw some of these "things" at the small show a couple weeks ago and the tidbits I get here and there interest me more and more. As I read about this rodent I keep thinking more and more that there is no reason NOT to try and run with some.

Apparently little or no urine smell and litters of 20-25. I don't think they get as big as the rats we are used to, maybe small/medium size comparison? For those keeping snakes that don't require adult size rats (BP keepers?) these might bring some nice conviences. I "have" to raise my rodents in a back room of the house because frankly they wouldn't survive the high's of summer or lows of winter here in MI and my garage is not setup with insulation. I keep the rodents in the same room as our computers where we unfortunately can spend alot of time. Generally I am used to the "smells" but outsiders definately know its not "normal". Anyway I'm thinking rodents that breed with large litters...bigger than mice...urinate very little!!!

I also come to realize we (I) are talking about ball pythons here and most of us generally know how these snakes can be about food items. I personally have had no real issue between mice and rats or vise versa with my long term BP's. I then wonder about if I sell reptiles I've bred and raised started on these african rats how will they fare to the end keeper? Will these African rodents become popular enough to be considered common food item (or pets?!)

These rodents are fairly new yet or at least seem to be in the reptile scheme of things with the price tag I saw for a treo at the last show. I am also seeing them pop up elsewhere for ~$100/trio. If they propagate as fast as I am reading they do, I'm not sure "getting in early" will have any affect other than that I will have paid a crap load more now rather than later when I would assume they would be much cheaper. Still something I have been turning over and over in my head. I might even look for them at the show this coming Sunday and get some more info.

What are your thoughts on this seemingly near perfect solution for rodent breeders specific to ball pythons or otherwise?

My first litter was 12. The currant litter is 4. They bite, a LOT. Very mean. They smell less than mice, about like comparable size rats.
Ball pythons are supposed to not be able to resist them. I offered fuzzy babies to my hatchlings and of 4 hatchlings, 2 ate. I offered reg rat pinkies to them the following week, and 3 ate.
They are neat, and I am hoping to make my money back selling mine for breeders, then I will most likely get rid of them.
Just my .02
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...roupBabies.jpg

Wolfy

What is the current going price. A few months ago I was offered 1.3 for $100 and I could not see paying $100 for 4 rodents. $25, maybe $30 for 4.. maybe.

Rick

Best price I have HEARD was a trio for $75. The guy might have been trying to get me to come down from $100 for a trio though.
I'd be happy with $75 or even slightly less myself.
They are cute little buggers. Give them a year and the price should come down. They just don't reproduce really well. I have 7, 3.4 and I have 2 litters so far. I am going to seperate them out further and see if that helps. They did NOT eat any of the babies though. 12 pinkies were born, and I fed off two fuzzies, and 10 are now just past weaning age. They don't grow as fast as normal rats do.
Wolfy

I would be interested in buying some. Is there a way to ship them? Also would you be willing to sell a pair? or maybe a 1.2?

Aren't these those unusual rats/mice that they sell at the shows for $10 a pair? or are those something that they call pigmy mice or something like that. They are grey and white and they don't look like typical rats/mice.

the only way to ship mammals is to ship them just like a dog, and they have to have vet health certs, it's not worth it trust me. You'd be paying $200+ just for shipping. Sorry.
Come on down to Tampa, lol. You might need to start driving now.. lol.
Wolfy

If they grow slower, breed less and are more likely to bite, it would seem they will make less than ideal feeders. Perhaps with some handling there will be a good market for them in the pet trade, but I want faster breeding rats that are less likely to bite the snakes that I need to feed live to.


I do appreciate your honesty, based on your experiences.

Rick

Yeah the biting is the main reason I wouldn't want to feed them live to snakes...


I wonder if they were raised by a normal rat (Im sure that works?) if they would have different tendencies.

I'm not conserned with biting myself. I treat my rodents with care as I would any other animal...but I don't atttempt to hold them or bother them unless I'm cleaning or checking litters. As far as biting snakes go, I don't have any that "require" live food at the moment. I pre-kill what I need the the night I feed.

I am still reading that they have larger litters, although it may take some time for them to build up the the naturally high numbers and possibly less bitey. Gestation and heat cycles don't seem to be much different than that of normal rats. I'm still thinking about trying some if I can find them cheaper. I might just raise them along with mice so I still have both but also have a bit larger rodents to try and transition to.

I still think the reason for insane price is just due to the fact that aren't that common yet, or at least I've only just started seeing them.

I wrestled with the idea of bringing them in or not ... here are the conclusions I came to.

While they are supposed to have great litters most people with them report about a 14 average ... Same as most of my rats.

No real difference in pregnancy length between those and a normal rat.

They look similiar to a hamster ... this may turn people off to them thinking they are a "pet" rather than a feeder.

And the biggest one ... The only snake they are really going to be good for is wild caught ball pythons. With them still being an exotic with high prices most people arent going to want to feed them to their animals ...

If I was breeding snakes to sell I would not feed them these rats ... you are running a risk of the reptiles (particularly ball pythons) imprinting on them. As a potential client I would not consider an animal from a breeder feeding soft-furred rats as they are only available in limited quantities and high cost.

Bryan

Personally, I think they're nothing more than a gimmick .... if you can't get ball pythons to eat and thrive on mice and/or rats, you're doing it wrong. As a breeder, I want my hatchlings to be eating the most widely available source of prey possible ... mice and rats.

Just my $.02

-adam

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Personally, I think they're nothing more than a gimmick .... if you can't get ball pythons to eat and thrive on mice and/or rats, you're doing it wrong. As a breeder, I want my hatchlings to be eating the most widely available source of prey possible ... mice and rats.

Just my $.02

-adam

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I agree 100% my Bp's are thriving on rat's and I wouldn't change a thing. These rodent's are probably for someone only getting WC female's.

Great points and I feel the same way. I'm not having feeding problems myself...I guess I'm mostly taken in by the fact that they don't urinate so much, and the size being inbetween mice and regular rats. Any thoughts on if these will become a popular food item or not? I realize a transition would be hard and probably most established breeders wouldn't buy into this early just due to the fact that they are not common. What if they did become more common would keepers be inclined to change to this food source assuming prices would also drop and were comparible to rats (or mice).

I'm trying to invision different scenarios of how this would work...if it can. It may not be feasible to get in the action early due to the crazy prices being asked now. So its largely dependant on the population of these new rodents and a price drop. If and when that is accomplished, I think the next wall to climb would be to convince reptile keepers to jump into it. With this I see many skeptics and a few who might try it. I would think this might cause a mess though with some breeders raising on this new rodent and some not, even assuming these af. rodents are widely available.

A possible scenario for smaller breeders/keepers that may work is if they would be used just for feeding animals that are kept for breeding/pets. Reptile offspring could still be raised on mice. This however poses the question of why raise so many different rodents? Good question! Is the less smell worth it?

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Originally Posted by TekWarren

I guess I'm mostly taken in by the fact that they don't urinate so much

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So what? They still stink, all rodents do.

-adam

They smell about as bad as smaller rats, so the less odor is not a real factor. I hoped to sell the offspring of mine as breeders to others. I think personally I'd stick with raising rats. Why put the same food into one that only gets a 1/3 the size of a rat?
They are darned cute, but it still doesn't bother me to feed the little buggers off to a snake.
Wolfy

So even though they urinate so little you would say they smell just as bad as mice or rats? I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything one way or another just trying to learn the facts. The main odor in my rodent tubs is urine, I clean the tubs weekly but in about 2 days you can hardly tell smell wise...especially in the maturing male tubs. That's why males are the first to go! Thus far I guess its worth it to get some and do some testing unless some fall into my lap.

Another quest for a clean odor -less down the tubes for now. My wife's gerbils never smelled, maybe I'll have to train the mice to use the potty :P

Thanks for the replies!

I may be immune to the smell but ... The only times mine get smelly is when one of my drinking valves has leaked. I can instantly tell when I walk into the shop. I can also tell if an animal has died in the last 4 hrs ...

If you want something between mice and rats with decent litters try dwarf hamsters. They are gaining popularity as a feeder. With dwarfs you can keep them in colonies.

My personal opinion is if the rodents smell bad after only a few days you need to check what you are feeding them.

Bryan

Thanks for the info, generally its the all male tub that starts to smell when they pee. My mouse breeding tubs with just one male and females are not bad and much less messy.

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Originally Posted by Bdadawg

I may be immune to the smell but ... The only times mine get smelly is when one of my drinking valves has leaked. I can instantly tell when I walk into the shop. I can also tell if an animal has died in the last 4 hrs ...

If you want something between mice and rats with decent litters try dwarf hamsters. They are gaining popularity as a feeder. With dwarfs you can keep them in colonies.

My personal opinion is if the rodents smell bad after only a few days you need to check what you are feeding them.

Bryan

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Or you are over crowding them. I found that out the hard way with my growouts.

My take on these rats.... if I bred the entire spectrum of food, I would want some, but unless I have several WC snakes, that despite months and months of work just won't eat, then why bother?

It would be nice to have an easy out for snakes who won't eat, but if you feed them special food, you better plan on keeping them :)

Just want to clarify some of my reasons for starting this topic. I've raised rodents for a long time, I don't over crowd them...if anything they have more space than needed. I have also not run into to many problem feeders that haven't come out of it. My whole take is just the possibility of a "cleaner" rodent, not because I am currently having issues with animals I have. My wife raised gerbils for a long time and you would never known it as little as they urinate and they where very clean. I'm still thinking about trying even just one tub of them...but most likely not at the current prices I'm seeing.

Well durring the last few days I've been working on a triangle trade to take place at a show tomorrow and I think its going to work out pretty good for me. Anyway part of one of one of the deals has me taking a trio of these african rats. Its not a complete waste/loss before I get scolded these rats are only part of that deal. So anyway I will end up with some and see how/if I can work them in with my personal animals as food item. Might be a waste...might not time will tell. I'll post some pics of them tomorrow if I have I have time. Oh and also of a "girl" I had to beg, plea, and convice to get in a trade ;)

Those are beautiful rats!!! I would love to buy some. I have been wanting my snakes to have the most natural enclosure possible for them. And who knows maybe I'll switch my snakes onto this rat and feed live? Nah, I couldnt, too big of a heart. But feeding them more natural food appeals to me ALOT. I would like to buy 20 of them all none related. Anyone can help me out? Or PM to talk more about it, Thanks you so much for sharing this. Because I have been looking for ever for natural food or more similar appearance to thweir natural food.

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Originally Posted by Bdadawg

They look similiar to a hamster ... this may turn people off to them thinking they are a "pet" rather than a feeder.



Bryan

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Well people feed "pets" to their snakes all the time. There are soo many people out there who have pet mice and rats and guineapigs and hamster (some people feed hammies to their snake) and well everything out there is considered a pet. But if feeding more natural food to your snake will make them want the food more and everything, then I'll want some. I quit breeding rats more my animals because I couldnt stand putitng them down. But now I can do it easily with modern day CO2 gas chambers and nothave it some bloody mess.:)

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Originally Posted by Sapphire7

Because I have been looking for ever for natural food or more similar appearance to thweir natural food.

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Domestic mice and rats are also found in West Africa and are often consumed as prey by p. regius ... you're already feeding them natural food. Don't be a sucker and fall for the hype.

-adam

OK I know I am dragging up an old post!

Have any of you changed your mind from what you said here 2 years ago?

I was reading this and I thought to my self this is not what I am reading now.

I am really amazed at what the prices were. Did you guys really pay $100 for a trio? If you did that's stinkin NUTS!!! I am hopefully buying a trio on Monday for $25 unless I get alot of people telling me I shouldn't. I am hoping to be breeding BP's next season, would it be bad for me to feed ASF's?

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Domestic mice and rats are also found in West Africa and are often consumed as prey by p. regius ... you're already feeding them natural food. Don't be a sucker and fall for the hype.

-adam

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LOL! good stuff!

Nah, I think you'll be fine.
I'm buying 1.5 ASFs in January to start a colony- and from what I've heard, the only concern most people have is a BP being 'imprinted', meaning it'll only eat ASF and nothing else. True they are picky eaters, but if you decide to sell them (which would be your concern- having them eating for the new owners which don't want to feed ASF), the switch can be made back to mice/rats/gerbils/ etc. You may have to feed live if you are not for a couple times, but all my BPs have switched back and forth from frozen to live, from mice to rats- they seem generally happy as long as they are fed.
I say go for it- hey, if it doesn't turn out, you haven't really lost anything- just feed what you have to your snake and move on- simple as that.

25 still seems high to me...i got a good deal from another bp.net member and ended up with 3 lab tanks and a trio of soft furs for 20 bucks.

i paid $2.00 and $1.50 each for mine (depeneds on the size they were when i picked them up)

We had to drive 3 hours downstate to the reptile show to meet a guy, to find out he lives only an hour away from us. :P

We paid $5 bucks each, but talking with him and a few others, they paid around $50 for a trio. Some people paid more.

As more people have them, the price will eventually come down, but looking at it this way, we are all used to paying feeder prices on domestic rats. Pet stores still often charge $6-10 per rat, which is often where people get their first breeders from since pet stores are so plentiful.

People didnt bat an eye when they were charge $50 for a trio, or more, because of the lack of ASF breeders, and the prices that pet stores set in the first place.

Now that we've drug the price down, how many people that sell their ASF's actually know how much it really costs to raise each rat?

Are they "required" to sell the rat for as much as it cost to raise? Or are they allowed to sell the rat for whatever they want and make some money on top of the costs to produce it?? :cool:

Why is it people can't wrap their heads around the simple concept that even though 5 guys down in florida buy their rats for 4 or 5 from Mike, should mean that Kenny up in Utah has to match that price when he is the only ASF breeder in Utah?

SUPPLY AND Demand. Don't forget that. ;)

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

Why is it people can't wrap their heads around the simple concept that even though 5 guys down in florida buy their rats for 4 or 5 from Mike, should mean that Kenny up in Utah has to match that price when he is the only ASF breeder in Utah?

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If you are going to name drop like that get it right! I am selling them for $3.50 each live... and selling large frozen for $3 each. Get it right!!!!


***disclaimer... I know this is not the for sale section. I am not the one that started this.

Mike

it all depends on how many breeders are in your area?

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Personally, I think they're nothing more than a gimmick .... if you can't get ball pythons to eat and thrive on mice and/or rats, you're doing it wrong. As a breeder, I want my hatchlings to be eating the most widely available source of prey possible ... mice and rats.

Just my $.02

-adam

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

So what? They still stink, all rodents do.

-adam

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Domestic mice and rats are also found in West Africa and are often consumed as prey by p. regius ... you're already feeding them natural food. Don't be a sucker and fall for the hype.

-adam

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Is it just me or is some one kinda jaded about ASF's?

I can get them for about 20 bucks for a trio or less here.... be picky about bloodline. Some seem mean, some don't

Yes, I paid $30 for each of two 1.3 groups of non biters. I later added a solid colored 1.3 for $16 from another source and they aren't as docile.

It will be interesting to see how ASF's fit in long term. I think by now they have moved beyond fad but it's yet to be seen if they will be truly standard.

I do know of one commercial rodent breeder who was planning to get into them big time. I don't know how the cost of production compares. It seems to me that even though they grow slower they eat less and mess less so maybe if you have the grow out cages they compare ok on a commercial basis. Of course the market is also a very important consideration and again I don't know what the commercial market is for ASF's. You see mice being sold very cheap so if ASF’s can be produced nearly as cheap maybe you could sell a ton at $1 each.

They do fit a niche for me as a small ball python breeder. Bigger breeders probably already have their own outbuilding with Norway rats and maybe mice. But I needed something I can raise in moderate numbers in my house. No, they aren't perfectly without smell but they are a lot better than Norway rats and especially mice. Also their small max size might be important to ball breeders who don't happen to have big balls that can eat retired breeder Norway rats. Also I have a couple of balls that rarely eat Norway rats and I normally buy mice for and both seem to love ASF's. So they work for me.

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Originally Posted by hoax

Is it just me or is some one kinda jaded about ASF's?

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LOL... well just keep in mind, you are quoting someone from over 2 years ago!!!! At that point the great majority looked at them as a fad.

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Originally Posted by mcavana

LOL... well just keep in mind, you are quoting someone from over 2 years ago!!!! At that point the great majority looked at them as a fad.

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I understand. I just think some of the comments are funny. Especially Adams he has talked about people being jaded on other forums and he has talked about how he used to be the same way and now he is more "political" if you can talk about Wysocki that way...

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Originally Posted by RandyRemington

They do fit a niche for me as a small ball python breeder. Bigger breeders probably already have their own outbuilding with Norway rats and maybe mice. But I needed something I can raise in moderate numbers in my house. No, they aren't perfectly without smell but they are a lot better than Norway rats and especially mice. Also their small max size might be important to ball breeders who don't happen to have big balls that can eat retired breeder Norway rats. Also I have a couple of balls that rarely eat Norway rats and I normally buy mice for and both seem to love ASF's. So they work for me.

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ASF's are definitely the one for you! I've only had ASF's for a month (from the awesomest ASF breeder in the USA - Mike Cavanaugh) and I can tell you for a FACT that they can definitely be raised inside the house especially if you sprinkle a little Sweet PDZ (see post on general Feeder section) underneath the substrate. I have my rats in the office. Right now, I have my trio on the living room coffee table because they just had babies and I'm just sooo excited I have to look at them all day long! And, I've only cleaned their tubs twice since I've had them. I'm cleaning again on Saturday and my guests yesterday didn't even notice I have rats on the coffee table. The advantage of them being inside the house is it is temperature and pest controlled. I would go crazy if they would get fleas and such!

The ones I got from Mike don't bite. The trio I got are pets and my kids are constantly petting them.

I am looking into getting started in breeding these guys. Anyone on here have them for sale anywhere near Reno Nevada?
Thanks

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Originally Posted by silverstateexotics

I am looking into getting started in breeding these guys. Anyone on here have them for sale anywhere near Reno Nevada?
Thanks

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Go to the for sale section.

I just heard today that the other big rodent breeder in my state is raising them and supposedly doing well. It wasn't first hand but if true sounds like these might be cost effective even for situations where mice and Norway rats are an option. I wonder who's buying them in quantity though. Maybe they work well for birds of prey?

well I can get frozen ASFs(no live ones though) at a local reptile pet store, they've surely caught on enough to be found for feeders in a low reptile pop. area like MN

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Originally Posted by anatess

And, I've only cleaned their tubs twice since I've had them.

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Notice, just because you can't smell them, doesn't mean they dont smell, or that they aren't pooping and peeing all day long and have to live in it.

Please clean their enclosure's at least once a week. I again, understand no one but ME can smell these ASF's, but I apparently have a very sensitive nose to them because after one week the smell makes me want to get sick. I have grown more used to it now, but it's still a very strong (although not largly permeating) odor.

Saying you only need to change them when YOU smell them is not sanitary, given they are living right in it and on top of it, and are far more capable than us with scent sensitivity, you should clean it more often to prevent the bacteria growth from their excrements. Especially seeing as how most of them choose one spot to pee and poop in, it's terribly unhealthy to let them sit in it for weeks at a time.

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Originally Posted by mcavana

If you are going to name drop like that get it right! I am selling them for $3.50 each live... and selling large frozen for $3 each. Get it right!!!!


***disclaimer... I know this is not the for sale section. I am not the one that started this.

Mike

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Mike! I thought you moved north out of Florida! :P

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

Notice, just because you can't smell them, doesn't mean they dont smell, or that they aren't pooping and peeing all day long and have to live in it.

Please clean their enclosure's at least once a week. I again, understand no one but ME can smell these ASF's, but I apparently have a very sensitive nose to them because after one week the smell makes me want to get sick. I have grown more used to it now, but it's still a very strong (although not largly permeating) odor.

Saying you only need to change them when YOU smell them is not sanitary, given they are living right in it and on top of it, and are far more capable than us with scent sensitivity, you should clean it more often to prevent the bacteria growth from their excrements. Especially seeing as how most of them choose one spot to pee and poop in, it's terribly unhealthy to let them sit in it for weeks at a time.

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You must have missed the note in my post that I'm using sweet PDZ...
Check out this post:
http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...948#post931948

If you go to the official sweet PDZ website, you can read up on the part that says using sweet PDZ will help eliminate the harmful effects of ammonia and bacteria and yada yada. The thread linked above also mentions an alternative called equine fresh bedding with the same properties - fights bacterial growth, eliminates ammonia, etc. etc.

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Originally Posted by anatess

You must have missed the note in my post that I'm using sweet PDZ...
Check out this post:
http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...948#post931948

If you go to the official sweet PDZ website, you can read up on the part that says using sweet PDZ will help eliminate the harmful effects of ammonia and bacteria and yada yada. The thread linked above also mentions an alternative called equine fresh bedding with the same properties - fights bacterial growth, eliminates ammonia, etc. etc.

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Yup, thank you for that. However, I do use Equine fresh, and HAVE used sweet pdz (m00kfu is my boyfriend and commented on that in your thread), but they do still stink, and they do still pee and poop continually, and they do mostly go in one corner of the tub that will end up saturated with pee and poop, turn a nasty brown color and your sweet pdz and equine fresh don't control bacteria or ammonia in high concentrations like that.

I also understand you probably only have 3 or so ASF now, so they aren't putting out as much, but as the numbers grow, I don't want others to believe that it's safe or sanitary to not change the tubs if they use enough sweet pdz or pelleted bedding. Using it is not an alternative to regular cleaning of any animals tubs.

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

Notice, just because you can't smell them, doesn't mean they dont smell, or that they aren't pooping and peeing all day long and have to live in it.

Please clean their enclosure's at least once a week. I again, understand no one but ME can smell these ASF's, but I apparently have a very sensitive nose to them because after one week the smell makes me want to get sick. I have grown more used to it now, but it's still a very strong (although not largly permeating) odor.

Saying you only need to change them when YOU smell them is not sanitary, given they are living right in it and on top of it, and are far more capable than us with scent sensitivity, you should clean it more often to prevent the bacteria growth from their excrements. Especially seeing as how most of them choose one spot to pee and poop in, it's terribly unhealthy to let them sit in it for weeks at a time.

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Amen. Go live in a public restroom for a week. Some peoples idea of sanitary might change

oh yeah they smell! when not cleaned(almost a human urine smell) I keep mine very clean every three days they get cleaned healthier for them to be clean.