Killing rats

Tonight I gave a medium sized rat to my BP that my dad had put into a pillow case and slammed into a wall, and my GF went nuts saying that its inhumane. I gave her the other option of putting it into the freezer and letting it freeze to death and she didn't like that either. She thinks that I should let nature take its course, but I'm not about to let Spike fight a rat that could blind him or even worse kill him. I already had an episode of him getting a bad grab on a large mouse and it turning and biting him on the neck, scarring him permanately. Any suggestions would help.

CO2 gas chamber. Your rat will fall asleep and never wake up :)

Here is a very well written thread on creating a Co2 chamber http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...hlight=chamber I followed these instructions using a 10 gallon tank and 2 lbs of dry ice in a bag, with two large rabbits in the tank I opened the bag and covered the top with a piece of plywood, they slowly went to sleep and stopped breathing after about 4min. If you can't access dry ice you can create Co2 with white vinegar and baking soda, here is that page. http://www.alysion.org/euthanasia/ Co2 is very clean and they just fall asleep and don't wake up.

errr, dont put it in the freezer, thumping it hard is better than that.

i say go with feeding it live prey. that way its as close to being natural as possible. pythons hunt for thier food. its instinct. as long as you feed your bp the right size mice or rats, it shouldnt be too much for him to handle.

Ball pythons don't hunt for their prey, they ambush it. I've read too many posts and have heard stories and know someone that did feed live once that had a rat bite the snake in the eye and had to be taken to the vet, costing a couple hundred for surgery and such. It's just much safer to feed frozen thawed, or pre-killed in my experience.

CO2 is AOK for me, i donm't want to take a chance of a rat nipping my snakes tail if he doesn't have an instant feed response. I had gotten a dumeril's from a petstore they nursed back to health after a rat went off on it, nearly 2/3rds of her back was scared up.


wildlifewarrior

I tried the vinegar mix to euthanize some mice, and the darned things simply got drunk, and then acted like thay had hangovers. I felt bad, and wanted to give them teeny ice packs. But they recovered fully, and went on to become snake food anyway. I'm going to get CO2 in a tank if I can.
Wolfy

Yea I am getting to where the size of rat I have to whack are getting bigger than just hoppers or smalls may nee to do one of those gas chanbers myself.

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Originally Posted by MontyNSpike

I've read too many posts and have heard stories and know someone that did feed live once that had a rat bite the snake in the eye and had to be taken to the vet, costing a couple hundred for surgery and such.

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How many posts and how many stories? How many people that you know had this happen? 5, 10, 50, 100? ... Just curious?

-adam

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Originally Posted by Pythons Rock

Here is a very well written thread on creating a Co2 chamber http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...hlight=chamber I followed these instructions using a 10 gallon tank and 2 lbs of dry ice in a bag, with two large rabbits in the tank I opened the bag and covered the top with a piece of plywood, they slowly went to sleep and stopped breathing after about 4min. If you can't access dry ice you can create Co2 with white vinegar and baking soda, here is that page. http://www.alysion.org/euthanasia/ Co2 is very clean and they just fall asleep and don't wake up.

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good post now all you need is a food saver to vacume seal them and presto! Rodentpro quality. Good job

If you don't feed larger than a small rat (which is the largest size your ball will ever need) - live feeding is not an issue. I've fed hundreds of live mice and probaby 20 live rats since I've been keeping ball pythons - it's not been a problem for me at all.

Sorry, I don't know how to quote, but in the last post someone said that a small rat was the largest food a BP would need---I'm curious about that, as my two girls are both pretty big, and eat medium or large rats (I was following the "thickest part of your snake") rule. Are BP not supposed to be fed the medium and large sizes?

(not trying to hijack the thread, but I think it's a good related question :) )

My CO2 chamber was simple.

1. get a CO2 tank from walmart or a paintball store, as well as what is called a remote (just the tube with a turn valve also in painball section or pball store)
2. You can make a small box, or i just use the taped box they come in.
3. make a hole into the box or container to allow the CO2 in
4. when turning on the valve GO SLOW!! you can crate alot of noise and pressure possibly opening the top and the rat or mouse making a run for it.
5. You may also want to ad a small vent hole on the top so the air in the box can be forced out (Air is lighter than CO2). And it doesn't take more than about 2-3 min
6. after alot of gasing a refil is like 2-3 bucks depending on the size of the tank you have


thats just my sorta rig, it doesn't take alot of CO2 to put em down, once you replace all of the air with CO2

hope that gives some ideas!


wildlifewarrior

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Originally Posted by Dananyc

Sorry, I don't know how to quote, but in the last post someone said that a small rat was the largest food a BP would need---I'm curious about that, as my two girls are both pretty big, and eat medium or large rats (I was following the "thickest part of your snake") rule. Are BP not supposed to be fed the medium and large sizes?

(not trying to hijack the thread, but I think it's a good related question :) )

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The term small and Medium are relative what one company think is a small the others might think is a Med and so on. By following the "thickest part of the body rule" is fine thats what most of us do. It might be a good idea to weigh their food items so if you ever have to get them from somewhere else. you will have the weight to go by.
Most F/T companys give a size description but they package by what weight class the rat or mouse fall into. So a small rat might be 30 or 40 grams and your thinking a small rat is 50 - 60 grams thats a bigg differance.

Look at some of the sites and see but weight their food and see what size they are eating just to know and keep records of it.


Hope this helps :sweeet:

Here's a good discussion on appropriately sized prey for your snake.


http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...mall+small+rat

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Originally Posted by Dananyc

Sorry, I don't know how to quote, but in the last post someone said that a small rat was the largest food a BP would need---I'm curious about that, as my two girls are both pretty big, and eat medium or large rats (I was following the "thickest part of your snake") rule. Are BP not supposed to be fed the medium and large sizes?

(not trying to hijack the thread, but I think it's a good related question :) )

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I feed a few hundred ball pythons every week, and even my largest girls (4+ feet and 3000+ grams) only get what I call "small small" rats. Over the last 25 years keeping ball pythons I've found that if you're going to feed weekly, ball pythons are less likely to refuse meals during the year if they are fed smaller than the "wide as the widest part of their body" rule.

Being predators of opportunity, ball pythons are capable of eating massive amounts of food in the wild and the going for long periods of time without eating ... in captive environments, where regular weekly feedings are possible, smaller amounts of feed given regularly are more than enough to provide these slow metabolism relatively inactive animals all of the nutrients they need to be healthy and content.

I know what I know through direct experience (yes I've fed mediums, largers, and even jumbos to ball pythons) and trial and error with many many snakes over many many years ... it works very well for me and my snakes. ;)

-adam

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

... and even my largest girls (4+ feet and 3000+ grams) only get what I call "small small" rats. ...
-adam

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Adam,

Great post. Thanks! For my own education - Do your big girls get a single small rat per week?

Thanks again,
Steve

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Originally Posted by hoo-t

Adam,

Great post. Thanks! For my own education - Do your big girls get a single small rat per week?

Thanks again,
Steve

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For the majority of the year, yes ... It really depends on the individual, the time of year, if she's recovering from laying eggs or not, and the texture & smell of her poop.

-adam

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

For the majority of the year, yes ... It really depends on the individual, the time of year, if she's recovering from laying eggs or not, and the texture & smell of her poop.

-adam

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So thats what all the latex gloves you've got laying around are for!

And here I thought they were just for entertainment....

Its like CSI of pythons.. Adam with the little black light

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

Its like CSI of pythons.. Adam with the little black light

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You can learn a ton about a ball python by checking out it's poop ... how it feels, how it smells, even how it tastes ;) ... I'm constantly checking snake poop to make sure everyone is gettin r done!

-adam

Hope you use mouth wash afterwards:D


wildlifewarrior

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

You can learn a ton about a ball python by checking out it's poop ... how it feels, how it smells, even how it tastes ;) ... I'm constantly checking snake poop to make sure everyone is gettin r done!

-adam

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Yeah... I think I will leave playing with snake turds up to someone else...

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

You can learn a ton about a ball python by checking out it's poop ... how it feels, how it smells, even how it tastes ;) ... I'm constantly checking snake poop to make sure everyone is gettin r done!

-adam

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Adam I imagian you with little deli cups of ball poo in a blind taste test to see if you can tell who's is who's.

I don't go as far as taste but have broken a few up to make sure that they are digesting well..

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

Adam I imagian you with little deli cups of ball poo in a blind taste test to see if you can tell who's is who's.

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In my collection, I bet I would do better than 50% ;)

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

but have broken a few up to make sure that they are digesting well..

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ROCK ON! ... Ya gotta do what it takes to make sure they're healthy!

-adam

So what is the ideal poo, not too runny not too solid?, what about the urate, should that be lemon flavored? (jk;) ) but should that be hard or runny as well?


wildlifewarrior

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Originally Posted by wildlifewarrior

So what is the ideal poo, not too runny not too solid?, what about the urate, should that be lemon flavored? (jk;) ) but should that be hard or runny as well?


wildlifewarrior

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Fresh poo should be soft and evenly destributed with hair and squishie bits and taste like peanutbutter fudge with a hint of 9 dayold rat. Urate should taste like.. Well thats a love it or hate it thing.

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

Fresh poo should be soft and evenly destributed with hair and squishie bits and taste like peanutbutter fudge with a hint of 9 dayold rat. Urate should taste like.. Well thats a love it or hate it thing.

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we had a nacho mexican fiesta in the cafeteria for free today and i have eaten more beans salsa cheese and sour cream than i should in order to remain in decent health

that was before reading this thread. right now i am hating everyone for it


:puke2::puke:

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

. Urate should taste like.. Well thats a love it or hate it thing.

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hahahahahaha both on this quote and what bchapman said ahahaha

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

You can learn a ton about a ball python by checking out it's poop ... how it feels, how it smells, even how it tastes ;) ... I'm constantly checking snake poop to make sure everyone is gettin r done!

-adam

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What can you tell by the color? and what do the different colors mean?

Think of them like mood rings.

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

Think of them like mood rings.

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LOL!!!!!!!!!:carrot: :rockon:

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

Think of them like mood rings.

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Well.... What mood matches the color?!?!?

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Originally Posted by Liquid Snake 06

i say go with feeding it live prey. that way its as close to being natural as possible. pythons hunt for thier food. its instinct. as long as you feed your bp the right size mice or rats, it shouldnt be too much for him to handle.

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I feed live, BUT I could care less how it is in nature because they aren't in the wild. They are in tubs.

They can hunt a F/T or P/K rat too.

i feed fresh killed myself, whack the top of their head against a hard surface, then place into tub/cage, still warm and wiggly like a live one.

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

How many posts and how many stories? How many people that you know had this happen? 5, 10, 50, 100? ... Just curious?

-adam

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I know of one person that this has happened to. It seems there's posts and stories everywhere of people that have had rats and/or mice attack snakes when they are left alone, and sometimes when they are being attended to. I don't really think it matters how many, one would be enough for me to stop and change my feeding. I've been feeding frozen thawed with both my bp and rtb and they have never been attacked by their food. :rolleyes: Both are happy and healthy and I don't see any reason to feed live. The rtb was fed 3 mice a month by the previous owner before I got her, I watched one of the feedings and while the mice were all eaten within seconds of being put in, I switched over to frozen as soon as I acquired her. Hope that answers your question :sweeet:

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Originally Posted by MontyNSpike

I know of one person that this has happened to.

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And I know of one person that fed their snake a not fully thawed F/T rat ... the unfrozen portion ended up thawing and rotting in the snakes stomach and killing it.

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Originally Posted by MontyNSpike

I've been feeding frozen thawed with both my bp and rtb and they have never been attacked by their food.

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And ya know what? I've been feeding live rodents to at least 200 snakes a week, every single week, for the past 10 years ... Just 3 days ago, I fed out over 450 live rodents ... and not one of my snakes has ever been attacked by it's food either. ;)

Live feeding can be done safely if done responsibly ... 99.9% of the horror stories that you read on line are because the owners were idiots leaving prey items (that were probably too large for their snake anyway) in the enclosure with their animal for extended periods of time without anything to eat.

:sweeet:

-adam

Feeding is up to the owner. Live if done right is Ok F/t if done right is ok. I mean to do anything the wrong way and someone will get hurt. I mean you play darts the wrong way and see what happens

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

And I know of one person that fed their snake a not fully thawed F/T rat ... the unfrozen portion ended up thawing and rotting in the snakes stomach and killing it.



And ya know what? I've been feeding live rodents to at least 200 snakes a week, every single week, for the past 10 years ... Just 3 days ago, I fed out over 450 live rodents ... and not one of my snakes has ever been attacked by it's food either. ;)

Live feeding can be done safely if done responsibly ... 99.9% of the horror stories that you read on line are because the owners were idiots leaving prey items (that were probably too large for their snake anyway) in the enclosure with their animal for extended periods of time without anything to eat.

:sweeet:

-adam

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Well GFY, I'll continue to feed frozen thawed to my 2 snakes 1 rat each every 2 weeks or so. Feeding time can be dangerous it seems, but as long as everything is done correctly, the snakes will be fine.

:sweeet: :sweeet: :sweeet:

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Originally Posted by nathanledet

CO2 gas chamber. Your rat will fall asleep and never wake up :)

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Thats a completely great way to do things. When I bred rats I didnt want to "kill" them by smashing them onto something and all that horrible stuff. But my neighbor did who bred BEAUTIFUL morph Bps, corns, and a few other types of snakes. And he did the dirty work for me. But I quit breeding rats because I felt it sad. One day I see the baby rats playing and then the next day they're dead.. bloody. So I quit breeding them and have retired breeders that I loove to death. But I found out that my neighbor is now using CO2 to kill the rats. And its very quick and not as inhumane as smashing them against something hard, or breaking their next or having my snake suffocate the poor things.

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

Feeding is up to the owner. Live if done right is Ok F/t if done right is ok. I mean to do anything the wrong way and someone will get hurt. I mean you play darts the wrong way and see what happens

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That's not what you first said ! :confused:

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Live feeding can be done safely if done responsibly ... 99.9% of the horror stories that you read on line are because the owners were idiots leaving prey items (that were probably too large for their snake anyway) in the enclosure with their animal for extended periods of time without anything to eat.

:sweeet:

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Agreed. I feed exclusively live and have never had any problems. I have heard the horror stories and seen the horror pics of what rodents can do to snakes, but common sense tells me how to avoid this kind of incident. When I am feeding, if the snake doesn't take the item immediately after it enters the cage, I either assume it is not hungry and skip it, or leave the rodent in for a short period of time. During this time I check on them pretty frequently. If the snake I am feeding is usually a good eater and I have been keeping it for a good amount of time and it still hasn't eaten, I let it wait until its next scheduled feeding. If this is a snake that I know has a history of feeding problems, I may leave the rodent in with the snake overnight. I always provide the rodent with food and water when I do this, and have never had an incident. For some reason rodents think they are going to starve to death if they do not have food available, even for very short periods of time. I've seen rodents eat each other while being temporarily housed together for a couple of hours without food.

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Originally Posted by MontyNSpike

That's not what you first said ! :confused:

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yea I decided not to be an instagater tonight so I change my post to keep Adam from getting riled and words from getting exchanged

Is it common for rats to go on a crapping spree while in the snakes enclosure? The rat I've been using over and over (snake won't feed) leaves about 8 little poops every single time in a matter of seconds.

you would to if every time you got taken out to play there was the chance you might die. LOL

No but for real I don't feed live so I have no cue

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

yea I decided not to be an instagater tonight so I change my post to keep Adam from getting riled and words from getting exchanged

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I get riled? :confuzd:

-adam

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Originally Posted by JPost

Is it common for rats to go on a crapping spree while in the snakes enclosure? The rat I've been using over and over (snake won't feed) leaves about 8 little poops every single time in a matter of seconds.

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Define over and over. Once a week or more often?

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Originally Posted by Rapture

I may leave the rodent in with the snake overnight. I always provide the rodent with food and water when I do this, and have never had an incident.

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You're lucky, cause that is how most of the horror stories start. "I left the rat in over night and when I woke up, the snake was dead."

Is this something you would recommend to people that feed live?

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Originally Posted by MontyNSpike

Is this something you would recommend to people that feed live?

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What does it matter? Is there a point you're trying to prove. That poster does it their way, you do it yours ... so what?

-adam