new interest in snakes, trying to learn.

i've been playing with the idea of breeding animals for a few years. recently started looking in to more seriously. i've looked at all kinds of animals from snakes to foxes lizards sugar gliders and a bunch of others. snakes seem the most interesting and have the largest range of colors and patterns. been reading and watching videos for a few days. my knowledge is quite limited due to no experience but i think i've learned quite a bit. wanted to go through what i've learned so far.

handling: can be ok for short durations, but not really recommended cause snakes are solitary animals and don't want attention. i've also heard the opposite from owners that say their snakes enjoy the stimulation and body heat.

feeding: no benefit to live feed, frozen is best cause no risk of injury to animal. the only part of this that doesn't make sense is when i think about fruits and veggies. they start losing nutrients shortly after harvest. i would assume it's the same for something that is dead and frozen.

enclosures: people who consider snakes their pets buy fancy terrariums with hides substrate heat rocks wood for climbing and flowing water. breeders and people with experience tend to provide the bare minimum, plastic tubs and paper for easy clean up. this seems to be the most conflicting aspect for me. i want my animals to be happy, but from what i hear snakes are very basic creatures and it's debatable whether a snake can be happy. people with experience will say they only need their basic needs, food heat and water. everything else is more for the human than the snake. thoughts?

snake species: boas get big, not in to it. ball pythons seem to be the most popular cause of size, 3-5 feet. but i hear some boas are within that 3-5 range, while some pythons such as reticulated get pretty beefy. what is a good species to look at? want something that is nub friendly, has a unique look, and commands more than a few bucks to own one. so far i only looked at ball carpet blood and tree pythons.

breeding: i was originally thinking of getting one male and one female. but later learned that many breeders will breed one male with multiple females. some say don't breed with more than 3, others say they breed with 4-6. i know there are alot of factors here, but if you guys had to pick a number, what would it be? was thinking about breeding within the same sub-species so i know what the offspring will be. but i hear alot of breeders enjoy cross breeding cause you can end up with a new sub-species. what do you guys think?

eggs: i hear ball is between 3-6. some of the other pythons i looked at say 20-30 and up to 100. i want to be able to make profit to support the hobby/business so from that aspect you want lots of eggs, but 50-100 eggs sounds nuts. the tree python, a species i have interest in, can have 30. wondering how difficult it will be for an amateur to find homes for these snakes and what forums marketplaces or trade shows you guys recommend.

any other advice is also appreciated. thank you.

There’s plenty of nice locality boas with are so nice and stay under 4ft
The leopard boas come in some amazing pair jobs too
My Nicaraguan boas are under 5ft and not too girthy and even My Peruvian Bcl are only just over 5ft they all over 3 so nearly fully grown
The bcc true red tails are larger boas generally and the Argentine too
But there are some exceptions of bci which are over 7ft but most females are just over 6ft and makes around 5ft
Hope this helps


Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk

thanks for dropping some species names. i will look in to them. think i probably should have mentioned weight too. this is something i have not looked in to yet. i hear most pythons, even the ones that hit 5 foot, will not attack/eat/kill pets. specifically cats. i have a cat and the thought of something like that spooks me so want to make sure whatever i own is not able to hurt my furry one. length is less of a concern as weight and killing power.

My Nicaraguan and my Peruvian bcl will probably stay on medium rats every 3 weeks as they not really much fatter than that, and the leopards are probably only small -medium rats so not fat at all, the Mexican taharuma and cay caller are less than 4ft so a boa for everyone really

Sent from my TA-1024 using Tapatalk

The bigger question here IMO is: Do you want to breed snakes because you love and are fascinated by them, or do you want to breed animals and snakes just seem like a good option? I'm not trying to be rude, just noting that this will be important in how you go about things.

Snakes have a long time committment...Much longer than most mammals and other species you could attempt to breed.. i.e. if you were breeding rats and decided that it wasn't for you, rats only have a 2-3 year lifespan. A snake is a 30 year committment. Snakes can also be hard to find homes for depending on your area and what your market is like. You could be stuck taking care of a clutch of 12 babies for longer than a year..Buying feeders, providing housing. This isn't great in any circumstance, but would be even less tenable for someone that doesn't really love snakes. You will also want to check into your local laws. Some places require permits to sell live animals, some recquire liscenses, and some don't allow reptile ownership at all. I would check your city, county, and state laws just in case.

If you are seriously interested in snakes but have no experience with them, I would suggest the following to help you succeed.

1. Go to a reptile show or event (i.e. an educational event put on by your state herp society) where you can get some hands on experience with some of the species you are interested in.. Most shows will have boas, ball pythons, carpets, bloods, and some other rarer species. Get a good look at them in person and handling is a plus too... Try to see babies and adults as some species change quite a bit as they grow. This will give you a better idea of what they look like, but also what their personalities are like.

2. Once you've completed 1, hopefully, you will have gotten a better idea of what species you personally like. I would pick a species you like the looks and personality of and also think you can provide adequate enclosures and care for. Once you've decided, I would not purchase a pair, I would get a single quality female baby (well started on f/t) or juvie and I would raise her for at least a year. Once you've done this, if you are still fascinated by her and enjoy handling and husbandry tasks, then you can start looking for a male to purchase. This will allow you time to decide if this is really for you and it takes males a year less (usually) to get to breedable size anway. Do not skimp on the cost of the female you purchase and research to make sure you are purchasing from a good breeder and paying around market average price...Joing species groups on FB can be a good way to see who is breeding, average prices, what morphs look like, etc.

Personally, I prefer boas over BPs (although I like both). Boas are generally better feeders and are less timid. In general they are not nippy, but some can be. Mexican, Central American, and some island boas stay smaller (~5' and under) so would be a good place to start. Some of the smaller boa localities are known to be more defensive, especially as babies, so can take working with to get them more tame.

I would not let your cat factor into your decision with purchasing a snake... Even my 5.5' adult male BCA can't eat a cat... Plus, if you have a quality cage with a locking glass door, this shouldn't be a factor anyway. I keep my reptiles in a room that my cat does not have access to and have had zero problems.

Some species you didn't mention, that you might want to consider due to size and ease of care: Corn snakes, california king snakes, rosy boas, kenyan sand boas. These are all considerably smaller, and generally easy to care for.

Have you looked at the cost of keeping? Depending on the species you choose, you're either looking at tubs/rack housing or enclosures for adults. I use both racks and enclosures for mine depending on species. Most boas will need an enclosure, as would active or arboreal species (carpets). Bloods can be kept in racks, but need larger tubs than standard. Once you've settled on a species, I'd look at housing cost for babies and adults. Animal Plastics is a good website to look at for cages. For racks, I personally buy from C-serpents. Good thermostats are a must also. I use herpstats for my racks and cages and my reptile room is heated with an oil-filled space heater on a ranco industrial t-stat. For a basic cage / t-stat setup, you're looking at probably $400 or more, with racks, it depends on the number of tubs it will hold. They are cheaper than purchasing housing individually.

For feeders, check out perfect prey and big cheese, these should give you an idea of cost. Most species eat weekly, especially babies. Some species, as adults, eat every other week to every 3-4 weeks. Feeder size should be the girth of your animal and frozen feeders last for no longer than 1 year, with using before 6 months being ideal. Shipping f/t feeders can be pricey, so most people order enough for at least 3-4 months. I do an order every 6 months. I have a collection of 15 snakes and feeders cost me roughly $600 a year buying f/t online in bulk.

Lastly, I'd look into local vet care options. See if there is an exotic vet that will see reptiles in your area. This is a big one, as it can be hard finding a vet that will even see a snake for a respiratory infection or something simple...much less having to find someone to operate if your female becomes egg-bound

Now to address some of your other questions:
Feeding f/t is generally considered safer, but when dealing with large collections, some decie to feed live (breeding their own) for time and cost considerations. Starting out, f/t would be the best option. Know that babies sometiems require live feeds their first feeding before you can switch to f/t.

Enclosure setup/decor is a personal thing. I go both ways. In my AP cages, I use 2 hides, a waterbowl, and climbing branch for animals that will use them. In my tubs, I provide 2 hides, water bowl, and usually something like a rock for them to use at shedding time. I always provide hides to allow them to use their natural behaviors...Even my large boa has a hde (although he doesn't use it much). In my cages, I have the basking shelf option as well which allows them to climb and stretch out. Furnishings are tricky because they can improve some aspects for activity for the snake, but can also pose a threat if not properly cared for..They are more places for bacterial/mold/waste to hide and are more effort to keep clean, etc.

Handling totally depends on your animals and their personalities. I hook train all of my babies so that they know when I am in their tub/enclosure to do maintanance vs. feeding time. handling from a young age can teach the snake that you are not a threat and make handling less stressful on them later in life. It is also easier to take a bite from a baby nippy carpet than to take a bite from an adult. The hope is that with gentle handling, the baby will learn not to be fearful, and thus the adult will not feel the need to nip any more. Most experienced keepers will tell you that snakes become habituated to humans and tolerate handling.. Some snakes may seem to enjoy being outside of their enclosures, but some exploring behavior while out may be the snake trying to find somewhere to hide. Every snake is different. I have BPs that want to "explore" while out, ones that cringe and want nothing more than to get away from me and hide, I have boas that want to climb while out and will do so on my head or anything else available, and I have a carpet and BRB that can be very stressed while handling and flighty. If you want a snake more ameanable to handling, working with them from a young age will help, but they have an inherent personality and not all will tame down. It is best to ask the breeder to recommend an animal that seems to be calmer if you want that as a goal.

I have not begun breeding yet, but am growing up breeders for 3 species. My goal is to support my hobby with my funds from breeding (basically to break even). I have invested in species that I love and enjoy handling and working with, so even if I never end up making my breeding plans work (in terms of profiting or breaking even) I will still love keeping and having my collection. Good luck with your research.

It sounds like you have no idea or care what you own/breed as long as you can make a profit. That sounds like a recipe for disaster. I'd say you need to own a few different species of reptiles and keep them for awhile to see what this is all about. Plus it takes time to gain a reputation to be able to sell reptiles and I think you'll need some time to show you have the experience before you can successfully sell the offspring.

i know you don't mean to be rude. by all means, hit me with every hard question you can think of. i know you guys are able to see 10 steps ahead of me. the honest answer is i have a passion for all animals. i'm one of those people that don't kill spiders and puts them outside cause i think all life should be respected. i've never had an interest in snakes before, but after looking in to them i find them to be interesting creatures. kinda like my cat. cats sometimes have a bad rep but are awesomely misunderstood creatures. snakes kinda fall in that stereotype too but too a much greater degree. i think it would be a good experience to own snakes.

mentioning the lifespan and regulations was a excellent point. i am aware they can live a long time. i've heard up to 40 years. the legal side of things i will have to look in to. i am assuming it won't be a problem in FL. we can have class 1 and 2 cats with a permit so would be shocked to find out they have a hard on about snakes. so far the only issues i've heard about in some states they have restrictions or bans on venomous and anacondas.

have to give you credit again for suggesting i start with only one female. i was aware the females take longer to mature, but the thought of buying her first and getting the male later had not crossed my mind. this makes alot of sense.

so far i have found two sites i believe to be reputable. underground reptiles and BHB reptiles. i've watched a bunch of brians videos. his passion is obvious. even though i don't know him i feel pretty confident his animals are well card for and high quality. who else do you guys recommend i look at?

i have not looked too much in to the cost of keeping. it will play with the numbers so i know what to expect, but it's not an issue. i have looked at the cost of feeders. pretty cheap. i was expecting feeding once a week. was surprised to hear sometimes every 3-4 weeks. was also not aware they are only good for 1 year. appreciate the tip.

making sure i have a local vet that has knowledge with snakes is another good tip.

i have already watched some videos about breeding the feed. i don't think i have the heart for live feedings. i understand snakes have to eat but i don't want it's prey to suffer no matter how short it is. i saw some guy knock out all his feed with some kind of gas, i think it was liquid nitrogen. said something about reducing oxygen and they basically go to sleep. not thrilled about being responsible for taking their lives, but if they are respected and don't suffer i think i can handle it.

enclosure really is my hardest decision so far. since my OP i've been looking at bioactive terrariums. i like the idea. i want that for my snakes. but still unsure if it's going to add quality of life for them. after hearing people with experience saying it's more for the human than the snake it really makes me question the enclosures. especially if i want to breed. if i breed i don't think it's feasible to do bioactive terrariums so might as well not even go down that road.

really appreciate the lengthy post. :gj:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by smoothnobody

i've been playing with the idea of breeding animals for a few years. recently started looking in to more seriously. i've looked at all kinds of animals from snakes to foxes lizards sugar gliders and a bunch of others. snakes seem the most interesting and have the largest range of colors and patterns. been reading and watching videos for a few days. my knowledge is quite limited due to no experience but i think i've learned quite a bit. wanted to go through what i've learned so far.

handling: can be ok for short durations, but not really recommended cause snakes are solitary animals and don't want attention. i've also heard the opposite from owners that say their snakes enjoy the stimulation and body heat.

(They do not benefit from handling other than they benefit from not being scared from it when it is necessary. Some of them rare as it is even enjoy the time out.)

feeding: no benefit to live feed, frozen is best cause no risk of injury to animal. the only part of this that doesn't make sense is when i think about fruits and veggies. they start losing nutrients shortly after harvest. i would assume it's the same for something that is dead and frozen.

(Pre-killed or Frozen Thawed is the preferred method for safety reasons as you noted. Some will only eat life and others will eat almost anything offered. A dead animal will rot but if given right away would be healthy for the snake to eat. You have to feed what the animal will eat. Fish, eggs, rabbits etc....)

enclosures: people who consider snakes their pets buy fancy terrariums with hides substrate heat rocks wood for climbing and flowing water. breeders and people with experience tend to provide the bare minimum, plastic tubs and paper for easy clean up. this seems to be the most conflicting aspect for me. i want my animals to be happy, but from what i hear snakes are very basic creatures and it's debatable whether a snake can be happy. people with experience will say they only need their basic needs, food heat and water. everything else is more for the human than the snake. thoughts?

(Some species like ball pythons enjoy small confined spaces, in general. Some require large and active cages to be healthy. Research the specific species and know you animal. They communicate if they are not happy by their actions. Listen and give them what they need. Anything extra can be a distraction and anything less can cause issues.)

snake species: boas get big, not in to it. ball pythons seem to be the most popular cause of size, 3-5 feet. but i hear some boas are within that 3-5 range, while some pythons such as reticulated get pretty beefy. what is a good species to look at? want something that is nub friendly, has a unique look, and commands more than a few bucks to own one. so far i only looked at ball carpet blood and tree pythons.

(Keep in mind that the normal is more of a generality. I have a 6ft corn snake. I also have a 5ft swarf boa. Every animal is unique and the dedication it takes to care for it is specific to the animal you have. Why not start out with a corn snake or king snake? They are easy to care for and stay relatively small side and in most cases easy to handle. Other species like Tree boas, bloods, and Tree pythons tend to have more attitude or as I call it, defensiveness or food drive. Also adopting an established adult that is easy going is a good idea. You will know some of the animals history and food preferences that was already figured out by someone more experienced. Reticulated pythons are not for beginners! Myself excluded. Yes I still consider myself a noob and am learning every day but I am not the average JOE. Also take your time. When you see an animal that catches your eye and think you are ready, talk to the breeder about the animal. Ask feeding and attitude questions. If you ask enough questions and find more blanks than answers then I would not buy it. A good breeder will be glad to share this info with you and even fallow up after purchase.)

breeding: i was originally thinking of getting one male and one female. but later learned that many breeders will breed one male with multiple females. some say don't breed with more than 3, others say they breed with 4-6. i know there are alot of factors here, but if you guys had to pick a number, what would it be? was thinking about breeding within the same sub-species so i know what the offspring will be. but i hear alot of breeders enjoy cross breeding cause you can end up with a new sub-species. what do you guys think?

(As a new beginner why would you be thinking about breeding yet. You might get the animals and decide keeping them is not for you? You would not be ready to deal with bitey babies. If you buy babies to raise up then they will be year or more away from breeding. Get some experience before going this rout.)

eggs: i hear ball is between 3-6. some of the other pythons i looked at say 20-30 and up to 100. i want to be able to make profit to support the hobby/business so from that aspect you want lots of eggs, but 50-100 eggs sounds nuts. the tree python, a species i have interest in, can have 30. wondering how difficult it will be for an amateur to find homes for these snakes and what forums marketplaces or trade shows you guys recommend.

(Please take caution about Green Tree Pythons. They have huge personalities! Finding people who will provide proper care for them is not easy and would hope you would want them to be cared for properly? Grow and learn before breeding. This hobby requires dedication and caution.)

any other advice is also appreciated. thank you.

---

Summery. Don't breed yet! Learn and grow. GTP (green tree pythons) are not for beginners. Get an established adult and learn a few years with 1 animal before grabbing a few animals.

I enjoy reviewing this thread https://ball-pythons.net/forums/show...l-python-morph

Comparing prices over time...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by smoothnobody

i know you don't mean to be rude. by all means, hit me with every hard question you can think of. i know you guys are able to see 10 steps ahead of me. the honest answer is i have a passion for all animals. i'm one of those people that don't kill spiders and puts them outside cause i think all life should be respected. i've never had an interest in snakes before, but after looking in to them i find them to be interesting creatures. kinda like my cat. cats sometimes have a bad rep but are awesomely misunderstood creatures. snakes kinda fall in that stereotype too but too a much greater degree. i think it would be a good experience to own snakes.

Rescuing a spider and having one as a pet are 2 different things. Same with snakes or any other animal. Get some experience. Be open to suggestions from the pros. People will advise because they want to help you and love the snakes enough to try to keep you from getting over your head because WE LOVE ANIMALS ALSO. That is why we are her too.

mentioning the lifespan and regulations was a excellent point. i am aware they can live a long time. i've heard up to 40 years. the legal side of things i will have to look in to. i am assuming it won't be a problem in FL. we can have class 1 and 2 cats with a permit so would be shocked to find out they have a hard on about snakes. so far the only issues i've heard about in some states they have restrictions or bans on venomous and anacondas.

Learn the laws and know them! Some HOAs ban them as well.

have to give you credit again for suggesting i start with only one female. i was aware the females take longer to mature, but the thought of buying her first and getting the male later had not crossed my mind. this makes alot of sense.

Good advice here!

so far i have found two sites i believe to be reputable. underground reptiles and BHB reptiles. i've watched a bunch of brians videos. his passion is obvious. even though i don't know him i feel pretty confident his animals are well card for and high quality. who else do you guys recommend i look at?

Do more research! Morphmarket and many other places to look.

i have not looked too much in to the cost of keeping. it will play with the numbers so i know what to expect, but it's not an issue. i have looked at the cost of feeders. pretty cheap. i was expecting feeding once a week. was surprised to hear sometimes every 3-4 weeks. was also not aware they are only good for 1 year. appreciate the tip.

Do your research. If you have a shipping issue do you have a local supply of feeders? Etc....

making sure i have a local vet that has knowledge with snakes is another good tip.

Good advice!

i have already watched some videos about breeding the feed. i don't think i have the heart for live feedings. i understand snakes have to eat but i don't want it's prey to suffer no matter how short it is. i saw some guy knock out all his feed with some kind of gas, i think it was liquid nitrogen. said something about reducing oxygen and they basically go to sleep. not thrilled about being responsible for taking their lives, but if they are respected and don't suffer i think i can handle it.

Some snakes will only eat live. It is not about what you want but what the animal needs. If you cant handle that then don't step up.

enclosure really is my hardest decision so far. since my OP i've been looking at bioactive terrariums. i like the idea. i want that for my snakes. but still unsure if it's going to add quality of life for them. after hearing people with experience saying it's more for the human than the snake it really makes me question the enclosures. especially if i want to breed. if i breed i don't think it's feasible to do bioactive terrariums so might as well not even go down that road.

As I said before, enclosure is species specific. Learn and grow and ask about others experience before spending money and finding out you have the wrong setup entirely for your animal.

really appreciate the lengthy post. :gj:

---

People are here to lean, grow, and share. Thank people for taking the time to help you. You will have many more questions along the way.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MR Snakes

It sounds like you have no idea or care what you own/breed as long as you can make a profit. That sounds like a recipe for disaster. I'd say you need to own a few different species of reptiles and keep them for awhile to see what this is all about. Plus it takes time to gain a reputation to be able to sell reptiles and I think you'll need some time to show you have the experience before you can successfully sell the offspring.

---

a fair assumption. there is a little truth to your assumption, but to believe money is my only interest would be a gross misunderstanding. it's true that i won't buy something that doesn't command a high price. but my personal interest will be a the biggest factor. i was originally calling the different colors/patterns sub-species. i believe they are called morphs. so many of them are striking and beautiful. i can totally see myself getting carried away with the collection. more than i am concerned about the money, i want to make sure i am properly caring for them. in my mind i feel like i have to give them some one on one time or find ways to enrich their lives. i'm not sure how well i can do that with dozens of snakes. anyways, the point that i am trying to make is money is a factor, but it's not the only factor. i want to give them a good life too.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Skyrivers

You have to feed what the animal will eat. Fish, eggs, rabbits etc....)

Why not start out with a corn snake or king snake?

(As a new beginner why would you be thinking about breeding yet. You might get the animals and decide keeping them is not for you? You would not be ready to deal with bitey babies.

Summery. Don't breed yet! Learn and grow. GTP (green tree pythons) are not for beginners. Get an established adult and learn a few years with 1 animal before grabbing a few animals.

---

haven't heard about fish and eggs yet. thanks.

i have seen some super high priced corn snakes, but to be honest they haven't really caught my attention like the balls and trees have. i didn't know corns can get 6FT. was assuming they are all little tiny things.

to be honest, i see dollar signs. i know that sounds terrible. but that's honestly the main reason i am thinking about breeding so early. i've listened to people talk about how rewarding it is to have your animals produce a healthy clutch and to see them push their way out of their shell. these aspects interest me as well. seeing them come to life sounds awesome. i can totally see myself being infatuated with the tiny things. i'm not going to jump in recklessly only thinking about dollar signs. but i am trying to look a few steps ahead and consider if this can be a viable business.

kinda bummed to hear you tell me tree pythons are not for beginners. the red green and yellow morphs are awesome. i really want them. if you don't mind, can you elaborate a little more on why you don't recommend trees? i can deal with attitude. to be frank i would respect a little attitude. as far as biting i'm pretty sure i can handle it. i'm pretty rough with my cat and she tears the heck out of my hand. i'm sure i'll be a little scary getting bit the first few times but i doubt it would be a deterrent. i'm not made of paper.

How long is it OK to handle them? I do shows and some of mine are out almost 5 hours at a time but are established and well known for being easy. I did the research and put in the time. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...de98ca8dd1.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...d0e90c0a6b.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...fafe5cb866.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...187f9c91c7.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...60fad403f7.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...2793a9f861.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...241586faf6.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...b027730821.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...dd9c9218a4.jpg

Sent from my N9560 using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by smoothnobody

haven't heard about fish and eggs yet. thanks.

i have seen some super high priced corn snakes, but to be honest they haven't really caught my attention like the balls and trees have. i didn't know corns can get 6FT. was assuming they are all little tiny things.

It is not about the money here. It is about you getting experience and gaining knowledge. You need both.

to be honest, i see dollar signs. i know that sounds terrible. but that's honestly the main reason i am thinking about breeding so early. i've listened to people talk about how rewarding it is to have your animals produce a healthy clutch and to see them push their way out of their shell. these aspects interest me as well. seeing them come to life sounds awesome. i can totally see myself being infatuated with the tiny things. i'm not going to jump in recklessly only thinking about dollar signs. but i am trying to look a few steps ahead and consider if this can be a viable business.

At the end of the day they are living animals and should be treated as such. Having a plan for their health or emergency plan for heat or cooling etc is vital and they deserve to be treated as an animal not as a pair of shoes.

kinda bummed to hear you tell me tree pythons are not for beginners. the red green and yellow morphs are awesome. i really want them. if you don't mind, can you elaborate a little more on why you don't recommend trees? i can deal with attitude. to be frank i would respect a little attitude. as far as biting i'm pretty sure i can handle it. i'm pretty rough with my cat and she tears the heck out of my hand. i'm sure i'll be a little scary getting bit the first few times but i doubt it would be a deterrent. i'm not made of paper.

Once again, you need to do research. They have large teeth. Most are display animals only. Some calm as they age. The Red and Yellows are babies. They turn mostly green as they age.

---

http://www.reptilesmagazine.com/Care...n-Tree-Python/

Good read here. Please be smart about the things you choose.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Skyrivers

It is not about the money here. It is about you getting experience and gaining knowledge. You need both.
i know, but mr snakes was mentioning my motivation being money and i wanted to respond honestly. it's not my sole interest, but it is an interest.

At the end of the day they are living animals and should be treated as such. Having a plan for their health or emergency plan for heat or cooling etc is vital and they deserve to be treated as an animal not as a pair of shoes.
100% agreed. "emergency" heating or cooling isn't something i have thought about yet. how does that work?

http://www.reptilesmagazine.com/Care...n-Tree-Python/
thanks for the link.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by smoothnobody

haven't heard about fish and eggs yet. thanks.

i have seen some super high priced corn snakes, but to be honest they haven't really caught my attention like the balls and trees have. i didn't know corns can get 6FT. was assuming they are all little tiny things.

to be honest, i see dollar signs. i know that sounds terrible. but that's honestly the main reason i am thinking about breeding so early. i've listened to people talk about how rewarding it is to have your animals produce a healthy clutch and to see them push their way out of their shell. these aspects interest me as well. seeing them come to life sounds awesome. i can totally see myself being infatuated with the tiny things. i'm not going to jump in recklessly only thinking about dollar signs. but i am trying to look a few steps ahead and consider if this can be a viable business.

kinda bummed to hear you tell me tree pythons are not for beginners. the red green and yellow morphs are awesome. i really want them. if you don't mind, can you elaborate a little more on why you don't recommend trees? i can deal with attitude. to be frank i would respect a little attitude. as far as biting i'm pretty sure i can handle it. i'm pretty rough with my cat and she tears the heck out of my hand. i'm sure i'll be a little scary getting bit the first few times but i doubt it would be a deterrent. i'm not made of paper.

---

Just this post is evidence that when it comes to breeding you need to, "Wo the wagon train down" a bit. I joined here 7 weeks ago. Have been all over this place, attended a show and am on my second book about BP's and I feel like I've just scratched the surface. I've just started reading about genetics in snakes and if that's not enough to make your head spin then I don't what is! I don't plan on buying our first 3 snakes (for me and my 2 boys) until the Fall. I'm probably waaaaay overboard with this research but I'm the kind of person that wants to avoid 98% of the problems that can occur with snake ownership, or at least know what to do. To me it is not a long time when you consider how long your snake(s) will live (20+ years). It bothers me to see so many new threads here that basically say, "Just got a new snake, now what do I do???".

As best as I can see so far, this snake and breeding thing is a marathon, not a sprint. With how long snakes live, and with the 10,000 things that can go wrong and things to watch for with breeding, one must proceed cautiously or not be surprised and panic when problems occur.

So my advice.....go get a nice coffee pot, maybe a Barc-a Lounger or Lazy Boy and a nice end table. Scour these useful threads, then ask questions....all the while playing Word Association and Add One, Drop One and call me in the morning. Let me know where to send the bill. :snake::snake::snake:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MR Snakes

when it comes to breeding you need to, "Wo the wagon train down" a bit.
i'm not sure what this means exactly, i'm assuming you mean slow down. i'm not going to lose my head. probably gonna start with 2 female balls. give them 1-2 years of growth. if i took good care of them and still interested in breeding i will buy 1 male.

It bothers me to see so many new threads here that basically say, "Just got a new snake, now what do I do???".
that won't be me.

Let me know where to send the bill.
a rookie sending bills? how cute. :P

---

I do not recommend Underground Reptiles. I was a repeating customer of theirs for a year or so but no more. I had visited their shop almost weekly. Their feeders look terrible, animals are overpriced, and the staff is incompetent to the point where I had to step in numerous times to correct their husbandry advice given to a naive customer.

I highly recommend Dynasty Reptiles. I have looked into BHB but never purchased one from him. I have heard his facility has improved in terms of ridding of mites and staff is more responsive. I like Manhattan Reptiles/Olympus Reptiles. The owner makes a lot of YouTube vids as well so you can see his snakes and how they are kept. I like his way of caring for his snakes, the quality of his snakes and how blunt honest he is as well.

With that said, if you want to breed ball pythons, check out Olympus Reptiles video on breeding. If I recall correctly, he mentioned the start up costs can be about $10k if you want to do this seriously and correctly. It is not for someone who wants to dabble into lightly.

Breeding holds a high responsibility on your part. You are adding more to a market filled to the brim with ball pythons. You are adding more to those who are already trying to re home their current bp. It has nothing to do with love for animals if one is to breed just cause. I don't believe in unnecessary suffering. Your lack of experience can count into your inability to know how to and when to feed babies who won't eat, cut the eggs only when absolutely needed to or incubate in the correct temps using the right substrate. Many of these things are learned trial and error but many learn them by knowing what to look for to begin with. Thus, your lack of experience can hurt the animals you claim to love, and no book or forum or WebMD will cure that.

Do know that a lot of breeders don't end up making much or any money back. A lot of them just lose money by becoming breeders.

I definetly recommend getting a baby BP and when it's old enough to breed then make your decision.

You say you love animals so much, but also consider would you have the heart to cull deformed snakes or pre-kill your own rats for picky eaters? This is why I would have a hard time being a breeder.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by smoothnobody

to be honest, i see dollar signs. i know that sounds terrible. but that's honestly the main reason i am thinking about breeding so early ... but i am trying to look a few steps ahead and consider if this can be a viable business.

---

Allow this humble novice to respectfully suggest that breeding snakes is not a viable business at all, and for a number of reasons.

I know there are those four and even five figure animals out there. Those animals are rare and difficult to produce. Breeders are working with genetics, which is a just a numbers game. As in any numbers game, you lose a lot more often than you win but hope that the wins will balance out the losses.

In order to produce those few with highly desirable traits, you would need to maintain a fairly large number of animals, meaning anywhere from 30 (at a base minimum) to hundreds. Think of the cost of buying racks to house even 30 pythons, then the cost to feed them. With my local prices, I estimate it costing $45 per week to feed 30 animals, that's $180 per month. And, that's a smaller breeding operation.

That's just the cost side of the equation. Then there's the upkeep and maintenance, the real snake keeping. How do you feel about spending your days cleaning poop, scrubbing water bowels, and occasionally getting bitten?

We haven't even gotten to experience. Not just anyone can breed snakes and there is more to snake keeping than most people realize. To actually breed the animals, incubate their eggs and have a successful hatching of live snakelets, that takes skill and talent that can only be acquired from experience.

Can you make money breeding snakes, sure. But, there are a lot of easier, less stressful, less time consuming, and more lucrative hobbies out there!

Snake breeding is best for people who are passionate about the animals. People who can get pooped on, bitten, and then move to the next rack with a smile on their face. You don't know if you're that person yet. I hope you find out, and I sincerely hope that you are.

I'm just an amateur and I don't breed. But I would suggest you start small. Get yourself one female BP, or corn snake, king snake, or hognose (they seem up and coming). Get one with desirable traits, something that can be bred to produce desirable offspring. Spend some time in the hobby, learn through experience. Snake keeping is a practice.

If you enjoy the hobby you can get more and then maybe start breeding. If on the other hand you find that teeth hurt and snake poop stinks, you can easily sell a desirable female to a hobby breeder.

I hope you do enjoy it though, cause I love it. Good luck in all things.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cheesenugget

With that said, if you want to breed ball pythons, check out Olympus Reptiles video on breeding. If I recall correctly, he mentioned the start up costs can be about $10k if you want to do this seriously and correctly. It is not for someone who wants to dabble into lightly.

---

I love Olympus! He has a number of videos specifically about starting up a breeding business/program. Lots of good information. But the thing that I really like about those guys is how much they love the animals and the hobby. They are nothing but effusive.

I've also heard nothing but bad things about both Underground Reptiles and BHB. I used to watch Brian Barczyk's you tube videos, but quickly gravitated elsewhere.

Even as a rookie I know mountains more than you and I have barely scratched the surface. Bad feelings about your attitude to people trying to help you and be advocates for the animals. Where is Debrah when you need her. Let her get in here. Perhaps if you hear words of caution from experts you might hear a few of the things we have been telling you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 55fingers

Do know that a lot of breeders don't end up making much or any money back. A lot of them just lose money by becoming breeders.

I definetly recommend getting a baby BP and when it's old enough to breed then make your decision.

You say you love animals so much, but also consider would you have the heart to cull deformed snakes or pre-kill your own rats for picky eaters? This is why I would have a hard time being a breeder.

---

This. OP also keep in mind, ball python hatchlings will almost always require being fed live for their first meal (or more) before you can make a switch to f/t. This transition won't always be easy and you WILL encounter a few babies who will take more time or refuse to switch at the timeframe you want.

I'm also hoping Deborah will chime in with the harder questions and reality checks to help you determine if breeding really is for you vs falling in love with the concept of it. If you want any solid advice from someone who is very reputable and greatly experienced in the hobby, it will be from her hands down.

As an addendum to my first response, and based on some other things you've posted, I'll note some points for you to consider below.

1. My reference to 3-4 week feeding schedules was a reference to adult (over 4-5 years) boas as boa constrictors (BCC and BCI) require less frequent meals to avoid becoming obese, which can cause an early death. Most species need weekly or bi-weekly feedings as adults (I have most of my adult BPs, carpet, BRB, etc. on every 10 days -14 days).

2. As a total beginner with reptiles, you should pick a species suitable for being a beginner...That is not to say that you wouldn't be able to keep a more difficult species, but it is harder to meet their specific requirements. Most require very strict humidity, temps, housing, or feeding and in some cases temperament plays a role. A species like a GTP has very specific humidity and temp needs, they can stress easily, they are very fragile as babies, and can be difficult to reproduce. That is why they are often classed as an advanced species.. It is not that a beginner can't meet their requirements, but if you slip up on temps or humidity, the animal could go down hill much faster than a hardier animal. Also note that if you see GTPs listed for cheap they are almost certainly wild caught animals which come with their own host of issues..everything from getting them to feed, to treating internal / external parasites. I would under no circumstances start with a WC animal as a beginner.. Heck, even I won't keep a WC animal and I've been keeping for ~15 years now. If you like the look of GTP, you may want to consider carpet pythons. Jungles in particular don't get large and are known to be pretty hardy. They climb and can perch similar to GTP and are related, but not as hard to keep. They still have a temperment that is less trusting and more bitey as neonates, but will usually tame down when worked with gently. Note that biting isn't necessarily bad because it can hurt you, but it can cause additional stress on the animal and they can also break teeth off, which can become infected and require care.

As a side note here, the more information you can get the better.. There is a great youtube channel run by a guy that owns a reptile shop in the UK called "Snakes N Adders" he has classified reptiles into beginner, intermediate, and advanced classes and done youtube videos showing them and talking about their care. I highly respect him and think he gives accurate info. I will link his youtube page here. Note that he takes this so seriously that he will not sell an intermediate or advanced animal to a person new to the hobby.

I would again state that you need to find a species that you really want to keep as a pet and dig into the care of that particular species..Make it your goal to learn everything you can about them before you even make your first purchase. After making that purchase, you will learn many things through trial and error, but you should focus on perfecting your care of that lone animal first. When you can successfully keep that animal healthy, growing, etc. then it'll be time to look into buying your second animal. There are also some great books out there with information on different species. I will list some here...Most are available on Amazon, ebay, or other sites. These have info on care, on natural habitat, disease, breeding, morphs, localities, etc.

The Complete Chondro
The Complete Carpet Python
The Complete Boa Constrictor
The Complete Ball Python

3. Do not buy your animals from a dealer (like BHB or Underground)... As a beginner, you want to buy from an established, but smaller, breeder that can give you personal help should you need it and one that has a solid reputation in the hobby for that particular species. If your end goal is possibly breeding, the animal you select should be from a source that is reliable..meaning that if they tell you it is an "x" that it is actually an "x" and not something else. If you want to keep a species with morphs, some of these can be harder to tell apart and animals can get sold as the wrong morph (on purpose or not) if your species has sub species or localities (i.e. Nicaraguan boas, boc constrictor longicauda, BCC, etc.) then you need to find a breeder that specializes in localities and has documentation on his animals... that way you know you aren't buying a "mutt" labled as something else.

This also has the benefit of helping you sell future offspring because buying from a known breeder with good lines and being able to say "the mother is from breeder "x"'s line of this particular morph" goes a long way. Quality also is always a good thing.. People in the hobby for a species know what a quality animal is and is not and if you are selling poor quality animals, no one will want to buy. If you should decide this hobby isn't for you and you need to sell that first female you purchase, it will be easier to do so if you have documentation on who she's from, what she is, etc.

Note that some of the people who authored the books I posted above still breed and are very well known and reliable. If you end up with an interest in carpets, for example, Nick Mutton runs Inland Reptile and has some of best carpet pythons around. Vin Russo is still breeding boas at cutting edge. There are smaller breeders that are very well known in their species communities also (i.e. Jeff Holloway, Scott Miller, and Warren Treacher in Kenyan sand boa community) getting involved in the community will help you find out who is and is not a reliable breeder and who you may want to buy from.. Knowing the lingo the community uses (morph names, locality names, etc.) before inquiring about purchases is always good too and getting involved and doing research first is the only way to make that happen.

4. Feeding: f/t feeders are gassed via CO2. If you absolutely can't take feeding live, you need to get a well-established baby or juvenile that the breeder is dead certain takes f/t like a champ.. Even so, you can still get an animal that was taking f/t reliably and has decided that it won't any more. With breeding, you never know. Most breeders start out with at least one live feeding. Some babies will switch, some won't, and you have to be able to provide what that animal needs. Unless you have a local feeder breeder that can sell live pinkies, fuzzies, or hoppers, that may mean raising your own. It's no fun, but I have had to gas my own feeders and rats with deformaties or health issues.

5. Laws- I don't live in FL, but do know you need a license to sell there (can't remember what permit or licesne is called) you even need one if you are selling your ex pet on CL as FL FW has done sting operations to catch those without. I'd assume anything non-venomous would be OK, but some species I know need permits and chipping. Your city / county may have additional laws, so check with local animal control or government people.

All that said, when you've figured out which species you might be interested in, let us know and I'm sure people can give you more specific info at that point. Good luck with your research.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 55fingers

Do know that a lot of breeders don't end up making much or any money back. A lot of them just lose money by becoming breeders.
how do breeders lose money? this seems like a rather unlikely situation. equipment and animals are a one time cost. recurring costs of feed electric and maintenance is minimal. i can see if you are going big and renting commercial property you can go down the toilet but that's not my goal. i just want to do this for myself and make a little extra on the side.

You say you love animals so much, but also consider would you have the heart to cull deformed snakes or pre-kill your own rats for picky eaters? This is why I would have a hard time being a breeder.
to give you an answer if i could kill rats i would have to know how it's done. if it's with nitrogen i could do it. if it's by slamming them against a wall i couldn't do it. i understand some animals are fussy and won't eat pre-kill but almost all of these established companies have their animals eating frozen. even with my limited knowledge i know it's rare for a ball not to eat frozen. why do people kill deformed snakes?

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JRLongton

I know there are those four and even five figure animals out there.
not my goal to produce five figure animals. 500-900 an egg would be my goal.


In order to produce those few with highly desirable traits, you would need to maintain a fairly large number of animals, meaning anywhere from 30 (at a base minimum) to hundreds.
not my goal to have hundreds of animals and produce new morphs. i'm not trying to compete with big breeders. 3 animals is enough for now.

That's just the cost side of the equation. Then there's the upkeep and maintenance, the real snake keeping. How do you feel about spending your days cleaning poop, scrubbing water bowels, and occasionally getting bitten?
​maintenance seems pretty easy. feed once a week at the most. replace dirty paper once a month or buy a bioactive terrarium and let nature do it's thing. tell me what i am missing here. i already mentioned my cat probably does more damage to my hand than a ball will. nobody wants to get bit but it's not a too scary to handle situation for me.

---

"how do breeders lose money? this seems like a rather unlikely situation. equipment and animals are a one time cost. recurring costs of feed electric and maintenance is minimal. i can see if you are going big and renting commercial property you can go down the toilet but that's not my goal. i just want to do this for myself and make a little extra on the side."

Actually if you're just starting out and add all expenses including snake cost, feeding them, at best you break even with your expenses. It takes quite a few years (if you raise from hatchling) and a few years even more before you might earn extra on top of the total cost. And this is if you are breeding higher-end morphs.
It also depends a lot on building a reputation and having a buyer base. Otherwise you may have 10~20 hatchlings, assuming you get two females, that you must feed and raise for maybe half a year or more.

why do people kill deformed snakes?

You need to cull snakes that are deformed or ill to the point of not being able to live normal lives.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Skyrivers

Even as a rookie I know mountains more than you and I have barely scratched the surface. Bad feelings about your attitude to people trying to help you and be advocates for the animals. Where is Debrah when you need her. Let her get in here. Perhaps if you hear words of caution from experts you might hear a few of the things we have been telling you.

---

kinda surprised with this response. i didn't question if you knew more than me. you made a cute comment about sending me a bill. i gave you a cute response. you are misreading the situation, badly. the smiley face right next to my comment was a huge hint it was meant playfully.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MissterDog

keep in mind, ball python hatchlings will almost always require being fed live for their first meal (or more) before you can make a switch to f/t. This transition won't always be easy and you WILL encounter a few babies who will take more time or refuse to switch at the timeframe you want.

---

this i know, i've heard and watched videos of live pinky feedings. i feel less guilty about this cause their eyes aren't even open yet. they are kinda ignorant and helpless. i assume they don't know fear like an adult would.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by smoothnobody

kinda surprised with this response. i didn't question if you knew more than me. you made a cute comment about sending me a bill. i gave you a cute response. you are misreading the situation, badly. the smiley face right next to my comment was a huge hint it was meant playfully.

---

That was not me. I just see your approach as fail. Best of luck.

Sent from my N9560 using Tapatalk

I agree I see nothing good going on here, sorry to be blunt.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by redshepherd

Actually if you're just starting out and add all expenses including snake cost, feeding them, at best you break even with your expenses. It takes quite a few years (if you raise from hatchling) and a few years even more before you might earn extra on top of the total cost.

---

lets talk numbers. most of the balls i have seen are 300-600. lets call it $1000 for a pair. i've seen videos about complete terrariums for $100. this is assuming i want to do a terrarium and not a plastic tub. bags of 50 feeders are less than $50 and last 6 months so $100 a year. balls lay 4-6 eggs annually. i sell babies for $200-500. my breeders live 20-40 years. how is this a losing situation?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Skyrivers

That was not me. I just see your approach as fail. Best of luck.

Sent from my N9560 using Tapatalk

---

i've had like a dozen responses since i logged in this morning. i'm trying to respond to everything i think deserves a response. i copy pasted my response in the wrong quote brackets.

you guys turned on me pretty quick.

Sorry,

We tend to be a little gunshy about certain patterns we have seen in the past - it can lead to miss-hits if we get reminded of things we have seen lead south quickly.

The best adivce I can give you is go slow at the start and get the basics nailed with a few females you love the look of and then look afresh at breeding once you have the idea of whats involved pretty nailed down in your mind. At the end you will have females old enough and fit enough to breed without causing them problems and the males you want will probably have changed based on availability, personal taste and will, inevitably, have fallen in price.

Best of luck. :)


del

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by smoothnobody

i've had like a dozen responses since i logged in this morning. i'm trying to respond to everything i think deserves a response. i copy pasted my response in the wrong quote brackets.

you guys turned on me pretty quick.

---

We didn't turn on you. We all started to voice concern for the animals that might eventually be in your care. The answer is still the same. Get educated and go slow. An animal that lives 30 years is not a fad. It is a lifetime commitment. You jump to breeding from knowing zilch about snakes. We try to caution you about certain species.

End of the day is your dime. I am out of here.

Sent from my N9560 using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by smoothnobody

lets talk numbers. most of the balls i have seen are 300-600. lets call it $1000 for a pair. i've seen videos about complete terrariums for $100. this is assuming i want to do a terrarium and not a plastic tub. bags of 50 feeders are less than $50 and last 6 months so $100 a year. balls lay 4-6 eggs annually. i sell babies for $200-500. my breeders live 20-40 years. how is this a losing situation?

---

If ur wanting to breed a few snakes and maybe sell them but mostly want to keep the cool ones, this is ok. If u want to make money then u need $1000-10,000 snakes that are powerhouses that will give u morphs that people want. If not u can spend 8-15 years making your own. And u need racks, heaters, of yeah maybe thousands in vet bills over the years.

What im saying is your not the first to say let’s breed and make money, these are not rabbits. They need special care and love

now I want to breed one day maybe, but I just bought a few pythons and am raising them for a few years and I already surprised myself on how much I don’t know. So I’m now to the point that I’ll just buy wat I enjoy and be happy with that

This thread is evidence why the OP shouldn’t even think about breeding for a loooooooooooooooooooooooong time!!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by skyrivers

we didn't turn on you. We all started to voice concern for the animals that might eventually be in your care. The answer is still the same. Get educated and go slow. An animal that lives 30 years is not a fad. It is a lifetime commitment. You jump to breeding from knowing zilch about snakes. We try to caution you about certain species.

End of the day is your dime. I am out of here.

Sent from my n9560 using tapatalk

---

skyrivers out!!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MR Snakes

This thread is evidence why the OP shouldn’t even think about breeding for a loooooooooooooooooooooooong time!!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

---

U being a car guy like me, it’s the same thing when someone comes on to a car fourm and wants a 10 sec suv for 8k. They found an eBay turbo Kit that is only 5k and then they can spray the thing too! Then when people tell them u need a $5k trans and 10k built engine etc they get all mad.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by smoothnobody

lets talk numbers. most of the balls i have seen are 300-600. lets call it $1000 for a pair. i've seen videos about complete terrariums for $100. this is assuming i want to do a terrarium and not a plastic tub. bags of 50 feeders are less than $50 and last 6 months so $100 a year. balls lay 4-6 eggs annually. i sell babies for $200-500. my breeders live 20-40 years. how is this a losing situation?

---

You forget many things that entail snake keeping... It's not just sticking them in a glass tank and giving them a little food.

Herpstat are essentially are a requirement if you want to play it safe with high-end animals. Herpstat4 for 3 animals is $340. If you go with terrarium, better to go with an RHP, which are $40~$60 each with one per cage, so about $150. If you want to play it safe with ball pythons, you really need a pvc cage to use for your enclosure rather than a glass terrarium if you're not using a tub setup, which glass terrariums do not hold humidity (unless you want to cover the top with foil... but it doesn't look too good). $200~$250 per cage per animal, so that's $700 if you have three animals.

If you get adult ball pythons, you will not get 50 small rats for less than $50 lol... Fifty small rats would be about $100 including shipping and that will only last you 4 months. So it is actually about $250~$300 a year.

Ball pythons won't lay eggs annually. Females will often skip a year every 2-3 years.

Of course if you are counting in the long run, for sure you'll earn the funds back and more if the prices of your morphs didn't depreciate by a lot. But you won't be "making extra cash on the side" at best you break even in 2 years.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by redshepherd

You forget many things that entail snake keeping...

Herpstat are essentially are a requirement if you want to play it safe with high-end animals. Herpstat4 for 3 animals is $340. If you go with terrarium, better to go with an RHP, which are $40~$60 each with one per cage, so about $150. If you want to play it safe with ball pythons, you really need a pvc cage to use for your enclosure rather than a glass terrarium if you're not using a tub setup, which glass terrariums do not hold humidity (unless you want to cover the top with foil... but it doesn't look too good). $200~$250 per cage per animal, so that's $700 if you have three animals.

If you get adult ball pythons, you will not get 50 small rats for less than $50 lol... Fifty small rats would be about $100 including shipping and that will only last you 4 months. So it is actually about $250~$300 a year.

Ball pythons won't lay eggs annually. Females will usually skip a year every 3 years.

---

Oh no, those things are free.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

fine, go out. i am still here and i would like to make my position clear. i got mister snakes telling me he is gong to send me a bill for his expertise when he doesn't even own a snake. i know he is joking, so i playfully responded with a little joke of my own about him still being a rookie himself. he thinks i am being a smart @$$ and insulting his level of knowledge. he gets bent out of shape. he responds with negative assumptions about my character.

then i got you getting bent out of shape because i accidentally copy pasted his response in your quote bracket. you say i'm fail. good luck. i'm out. sure, your words aren't inflammatory by themselves but i can read between the lines you know. you are basically assuming the worst about me and kicking me to the curb for something as meaningless as pressing a wrong button when making a phone call.

you guys have been making comments about my motivation. making comments about how i "claim" to care about animals as if my words may not be true. making comments how you see nothing good here. maybe you don't see it as insulting or turning on me, but as the person who is on the receiving end of this negative energy, it sure does feel like it. you "claim" to care so much about snakes. wouldn't it make more sense to be patient with newcomers instead of being passive aggressive and walking away from them?

Have you considered breeding and selling mice? Ball pythons have a few hundred mutant genes. I don't know how many mice have, but I am sure it is over a thousand. Mice average 8 babies per litter, mature at in a couple of months, and can have a litter per month. One male can handle 3 females easily. A family takes up less space than basic housing for a ball python. Build up a little business supplying mice to all the snake owners in town.

If you go to a two-day reptile swap meet, look around in back and talk to people. Vendors must rent a table, get food and housing, transport themselves to and from the meet, etc. This all costs money, time, and emotional stress. This was not for me.

Living things have a way of dying at the worst possible time. Kiss that investment goodbye.

When people talk about making a killing breeding snakes, I remember the motto of the Mystery Writers of America. Crime does not pay...enough!

Red and yellow are juvenile coloration in green tree pythons. By a year old, the snakes are turning green, the adult coloration. I've kept green tree pythons. They are gorgeous but NOT friendly. Every breeder wants "something that is nub friendly, has a unique look, and commands more than a few bucks to own one." That was the amelanistic corn snake back in the 1970s. The most money I ever made selling a snake was from raising an amel corn snake from baby to adult back then and then selling him as a proven breeder. And I think I lost money on the deal just from the food he consumed during that three year period.

Take a breath guys.

let the butt-hurt assumptions subside on all sides and come back to this afresh.

If I have to I'll lock the thread for 24 hours but a pause on all sides should let you see the points being laid out on both sides.

None of the advice given is wrong - slow is the way to go. But that applies to voicing the viewpoints as well. :)

If anyone needs a quiet rant send it to me instead of posting it in the thread - I'm used to rants at work so it won't phase me much. :D

i know the advice isn't wrong. i know you guys have the snakes best interest at heart. despite what some of you may think, i'm not stupid. i am aware i don't know squat about snakes. i know you guys know more than me. i don't need you to tell me so from a high and mighty position. i don't need to be insulted to get your point across. i don't appreciate the negative assumptions about my character and capability. i don't appreciate passive aggressive comments like i see fail good luck i'm out. if you are going to be negative keep your jabs to yourself and be gone. go ahead and lock this DR. some of you obviously see nothing good in me and this whole thread went down the toilet.

As I said - take a pause.

These guys are some of the best people you could get advice from if you choose to make the hobby a part of your life. I'm not exaggerating when I say the years of reptile keeping experience shared between the posters on the thread is best thought of in terms of centuries instead of years. The main triggers to us as long term keepers was mainly the vagueness in species and the idea of money - that's what lead to this going south.

Take time, read everything you can, and find the snake you like -then the practical questions you ask won't be so "red-flaggy" [ hey I just invented a term :D ] to the forum in general. 20-40 years is a long time to pick up poop from an animal you don't love.

And if you don't love them I can guarantee you will sell up long before you make a dime. And that's the honest truth.

Just buy a beautiful snake and raise it for a year then think about breeding. It’s like a tatoo, easy to jump in but not easy to jump out of. Just want the best for the animals, that’s all

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by smoothnobody

haven't heard about fish and eggs yet. thanks.

i have seen some super high priced corn snakes, but to be honest they haven't really caught my attention like the balls and trees have. i didn't know corns can get 6FT. was assuming they are all little tiny things.

to be honest, i see dollar signs. i know that sounds terrible. but that's honestly the main reason i am thinking about breeding so early. i've listened to people talk about how rewarding it is to have your animals produce a healthy clutch and to see them push their way out of their shell. these aspects interest me as well. seeing them come to life sounds awesome. i can totally see myself being infatuated with the tiny things. i'm not going to jump in recklessly only thinking about dollar signs. but i am trying to look a few steps ahead and consider if this can be a viable business.

kinda bummed to hear you tell me tree pythons are not for beginners. the red green and yellow morphs are awesome. i really want them. if you don't mind, can you elaborate a little more on why you don't recommend trees? i can deal with attitude. to be frank i would respect a little attitude. as far as biting i'm pretty sure i can handle it. i'm pretty rough with my cat and she tears the heck out of my hand. i'm sure i'll be a little scary getting bit the first few times but i doubt it would be a deterrent. i'm not made of paper.

---

On a side note not sure if anyone mentioned this or not. The red and yellow “morphs” are just babies. I’m a very new keeper as well we have one ball python. Are planning another one months in advance. I wanted a GTP incredibly bad but their care requirements are to advanced for a new guy.

I was talking with an unnamed breeder at the last show and he gave me an interesting insight into breeding. He asked me, "Do you know how to make a small fortune in the reptile business? Start with a large fortune and breed snakes." :snake::snake::snake:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DandD

On a side note not sure if anyone mentioned this or not. The red and yellow “morphs” are just babies. I’m a very new keeper as well we have one ball python. Are planning another one months in advance. I wanted a GTP incredibly bad but their care requirements are to advanced for a new guy.

---

There are some high-yellow adults. But yes "red and yellow morphs" as stated in op's post sounds like he saw some green tree python hatchlings, which are always either yellow or red, or a dark red. They go through a complete color change as they grow into adults.

@ the OP: Green tree pythons also don't have "morphs" like ball pythons. They are actually just called designer gtp, the color and pattern simply combine in interesting ways depending on the breeding.

I wouldn't start with the idea of breeding green tree pythons at all... Now that's just too much to get into for someone who hasn't owned snakes before. Raising green tree python neonates is a whole different ball game from ball pythons. You can of course get one green tree python neonate to raise from juvie after VERY thorough research, and see how you enjoy them.