Bad Neck Kink

https://youtu.be/83XtZwJ3mVg
My wife bought a super cinnamon for my Christmas present. She warned me when she gave it to me that it had been very defensive and striking. I examined the snake and discovered it had a bad neck kink and could not move well. Its head is often twisted around at weird angles and its tail is completely limp. It will not feed. It appears that is stays coiled up and defensive due to this. She told me that the breeder she ordered it from told her that it had a "minor kink and that it would not affect it in any way". I contacted the breeder and his response to me was basically he told her it had a kink and now it was our problem. I feel bad that my wife did not know anything about kinks and went by what the breeder told her. Unfortunately, I believe I will have to euthanize a snake she paid $500 for. My feeling is that snakes like this should be culled and not sold, and their genes should not be continued. I am just looking for other opinions on the subject.

Honestly if someone sold me that snake and said it had a “minor neck kink” I would make it my life’s mission to tarnish their reputation on the internet until they were forced to stop breeding. I would have T-shirt’s made with their logo and a picture of that “minor kink” right on the front of it. That’s just me though.


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I would report the breeder over at http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...splay.php?f=13 I'd say that's a tad more than minor. I could be wrong though. I don't have any kinked snakes and I'm not a breeder. But I'd stay away. That's just me.

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Originally Posted by Jbabycsx

Honestly if someone sold me that snake and said it had a “minor neck kink” I would make it my life’s mission to tarnish their reputation on the internet until they were forced to stop breeding. I would have T-shirt’s made with their logo and a picture of that “minor kink” right on the front of it. That’s just me though.


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I’m being a little sarcastic here but I would certainly post the situation on the various forums BOI sections so other people know. For one thing, it’s totally unprofessional to deceive a first time buyer. Not to mention they shouldn’t sell a snake with any type of kink or serious defect like that.


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I agree. Sign up at Faunaclassifieds and start a "bad guy" thread on this breeder.

That’s really gut wrenching to watch, especially since seeing the solid black super cinnamons are one of the things that brought me into this hobby.


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Poor snake & rotten breeder, she was taken advantage of. That snake should NEVER have been sold, much less for $500. Lucky to give it away & should be euth'd.

Personally I'd contact the seller since they said it's your problem now...ask them if they want to reconsider a return/refund, considering the bad publicity
they'll be getting otherwise. :rolleyes: Did she by any chance pay by credit card? I hope? (-see their rules about shady deals & refunds...) That breeder would be
begging to give me a refund, just sayin'...I'm very nice but I can be ornery too.

Who is the breeder?

Thank you for your input, I will follow your advise and post on Faunaclassifieds . I would like to at least educate people to watch out for problems like this. I feel this breeder does not take any responsibility for passing off snakes that should never be sold. I looked at morph market at other snakes he has sold and he has others that stated they have kinks that have sold. So I guess this is common practice for him.

The Breeder is Steves Morphs out of Florida. She found him on Mophmarket. I pinned him pretty hard about selling a snake that needed to culled and euthanized. He continued to take the stance that the snake was fine when he sold it.

Steves Morphs out of Florida

I feel terrible for the snake and for my wife for being duped. I have not euthanized him yet, but I know that is what must happen. I thought the supers were great looking snakes and had mentioned to my wife, so she surprised me for Christmas, but it is unfortunate that this happened.

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Originally Posted by Jbabycsx

Honestly if someone sold me that snake and said it had a “minor neck kink” I would make it my life’s mission to tarnish their reputation on the internet until they were forced to stop breeding. I would have T-shirt’s made with their logo and a picture of that “minor kink” right on the front of it. That’s just me though.


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IT WOULD BE MY MISSION TOO


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This is so sad. This person was only out to make money and he knew the condition of the snake when he sold it
I feel so bad for you and your wife this is such a sad situation but if it were me I would humanely have the snake euthanized and I would ruin this guy's reputation up until the day that I died

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Originally Posted by Russell Bye

Steves Morphs out of Florida

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I think we here should take the next couple of days to make this guys life hell. Emails, phone calls. A dishonest breeder can't be allowed to get away with something like this.

Does anyone know if there is someone or group that runs MM? I'd bet they wouldn't let someone get away with this.

Steve's morphs out of Florida is the one that produced this Snake?

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I'm all in for making this guy's life hell he needs to refund the money and he needs to be put to shame

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Thanks everyone for your support. My wife is reading your responses and it is making her feel better that it was not her fault. When she received the snake. She did feed it a small mouse, after that it started being defensive and not moving. I think it might have been moving ok when she got it, but after that first feeding something went bad with its neck kink. Thanks for all your support.

If you do decide to go the BOI route over at Fauna... Make sure you come correct. Post all the facts correctly or they will eat you alive. It's very easy to be left feeling like it's all your own fault if you don't do it right. Every word you post is picked over with a fine tooth comb. It's a great resource and serves it's purpose but you can't go at it half cocked.

Yes it was Steve's Morphs that produced and sold her the snake. My exact response to him was that any responsible breeder would cull this snake and never allow his genetics to be passed along and never to sell a snake with a kink. He only responded by saying the snake acted ok when he shipped it. Then stated he could not predict when a snake will have a problem, 2 weeks, 2 years. The issue is that the snake had a bad kink that if not affecting it now will affect it in its life.

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Originally Posted by cletus

If you do decide to go the BOI route over at Fauna... Make sure you come correct. Post all the facts correctly or they will eat you alive. It's very easy to be left feeling like it's all your own fault if you don't do it right. Every word you post is picked over with a fine tooth comb. It's a great resource and serves it's purpose but you can't go at it half cocked.

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This is good advice. If you don’t have every email, text conversation ready to post so they can see it, don’t even bother. Search their BOI for other posts about the company before hand so you can see what others have said about them.


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The snake may have an issue that was exacerbated due to the stress of transport/shipping.
I would give the snake some time to settle down before deciding to euthanize it.

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Originally Posted by Lord Sorril

The snake may have an issue that was exacerbated due to the stress of transport/shipping.
I would give the snake some time to settle down before deciding to euthanize it.

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For sure. When was it shipped? What were the temps it had to go through to get to you? What are the temps in its enclosure now?


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I'd also take short videos like that of the snake every day/few days with a time stamp, just for a record... If you do post on the BOI on fauna (which I totally would).

Does the breeder have a policy statement on their morphmarket or any of his pages? Usually breeders will have a "health guarantee within a week of arrival" or something similar. If you have a date on the video in your first post and it's within his guarantee, then you can post on the BOI regardless if the snake was "fine with him" or not.

Also agree with above that if you do post, make sure to post all texts, convos, pictures, his policy, etc. in the opening post. People will immediately question you pretty harshly and the thread can last for ages and be unorganized if not all information is provided upfront.

If your thread on the BOI is successful, I think that's the best way to get your refund!

He was shipped 3 weeks ago. His enclosure is controlled at 85 degrees with humidity at 60% He has both hides, hot and cool zones. He has had time to settle in, but as you can see he cannot control his body from the kink forward. His tail has no muscle tone, he cant curl his tail to hold onto things. I am giving him time to see if he can regain anything, but the long and short of it is this snake, if it survives, will have a very difficult and possible painful life as long as it lives.

The breeders guarantee was for 7 days, but my wife had him 2 weeks prior to Christmas, so the time had passed by the time I got him.

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Originally Posted by Russell Bye

He was shipped 3 weeks ago. His enclosure is controlled at 85 degrees with humidity at 60% He has both hides, hot and cool zones. He has had time to settle in, but as you can see he cannot control his body from the kink forward. His tail has no muscle tone, he cant curl his tail to hold onto things. I am giving him time to see if he can regain anything, but the long and short of it is this snake, if it survives, will have a very difficult and possible painful life as long as it lives.

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I agree. Sorry you and your wife are going through this. Hopefully there will be some type of refund or replacement or a vast improvement is made in the snake.


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Russell Bye

He was shipped 3 weeks ago.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Russell Bye

The breeders guarantee was for 7 days, but my wife had him 2 weeks prior to Christmas, so the time had passed by the time I got him.

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That's unfortunate. :( This will make it harder to get the refund or for a BOI thread to be successful I think, but hopefully someone with more experience and advice can chime in.

I feel so bad for you both and the snake. This is so heartbreaking. The person that sold it to you is a perfect example of someone that has no business breeding anything

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Russell Bye

The breeders guarantee was for 7 days, but my wife had him 2 weeks prior to Christmas, so the time had passed by the time I got him.

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Where did she hide it from you for 2 weeks? Don't tell me in a box under the Christmas tree!

There is a facebook page for inquiries, praise and criticism now. It gets a LOT of traffic, I dare say even more so then Fauna Classified.

You should look it up , ask to join, and then post. Just like with Fauna, make sure you read the rules and then post with all information you have. Pictures, screen shots of text messages, anything at all.

FBI - Feedback and Inquiries For Reptiles << that is it, find it on facebook


I did a search on there and there are 2 posts regarding that breeder. Each time nothing but praise...Although those posts aren't that long. One has 34 comments, that one was an inquiry. Then there is a praise one, with 4 comments.

Doesn't mean he didn't mess up this time and shouldn't be held accountable.

You will definitely need to answer how and where the snake was housed while your wife kept it a secret. Even the breeder will question whether it has been housed correctly. Even though that doesn't change a kink in the neck.

Just have all your ducks in a row and then go with it. You can 100% ask for your money back through paypal. Do a charge back. Do NOT euthanize the snake. While it may be the kind thing to do, while all this is going on, it needs to stay alive. And you may have to return it.

While its easy to be noble online and say the snake shouldn't go back to that guy, this is $500 we are talking about. It is not fair to you that you should have that loss.

And again, how did she make the payment? Might be able to get a refund thru credit card but you have to make a complaint & quickly.
What that seller did is despicable... and I'd still tell the Morph Market folks, you're probably not the only one he has cheated, you know.

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Originally Posted by RickyNY

Where did she hide it from you for 2 weeks? Don't tell me in a box under the Christmas tree!

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Ha, no she took good care of it. We have a spare room that she put it in with an appropriate enclosure and made it off limits to me. I had a feeling she had probably bought a snake for me but I was good and stayed out of the room until Christmas. She has always had reptiles and snakes since she was a kid, she just did not know about kinks and the problems that they create.

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

And again, how did she make the payment? Might be able to get a refund thru credit card but you have to make a complaint & quickly.
What that seller did is despicable... and I'd still tell the Morph Market folks, you're probably not the only one he has cheated, you know.

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I just asked her about payment and she used google pay, I guess similar to paypal, I am not familiar with it. We will check into it though. Thanks.

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Originally Posted by Russell Bye

I just asked her about payment and she used google pay, I guess similar to paypal, I am not familiar with it. We will check into it though. Thanks.

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Same thing...it's credit, you have rights.

Searched for his business name as well as his full name on Fauna Classifieds BOI as well. Nothing.

He does seem to care about his reputation and no-one yet has anything bad to say about him. At least not that I could find on inquiry boards/pages or even google. (under business and personal name)

So maybe this is not typical for him? Maybe there is hope to come to some resolution?

I still say, call him out on it on those pages. People WILL reply. And if he cares about his reputation and he did wrong, he should make it right. The scammers just disappear for a few months, but he doesn't seem to be one of those from what I could gather.

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Originally Posted by zina10

There is a facebook page for inquiries, praise and criticism now. It gets a LOT of traffic, I dare say even more so then Fauna Classified.

You should look it up , ask to join, and then post. Just like with Fauna, make sure you read the rules and then post with all information you have. Pictures, screen shots of text messages, anything at all.

FBI - Feedback and Inquiries For Reptiles << that is it, find it on facebook


I did a search on there and there are 2 posts regarding that breeder. Each time nothing but praise...Although those posts aren't that long. One has 34 comments, that one was an inquiry. Then there is a praise one, with 4 comments.

Doesn't mean he didn't mess up this time and shouldn't be held accountable.

You will definitely need to answer how and where the snake was housed while your wife kept it a secret. Even the breeder will question whether it has been housed correctly. Even though that doesn't change a kink in the neck.

Just have all your ducks in a row and then go with it. You can 100% ask for your money back through paypal. Do a charge back. Do NOT euthanize the snake. While it may be the kind thing to do, while all this is going on, it needs to stay alive. And you may have to return it.

While its easy to be noble online and say the snake shouldn't go back to that guy, this is $500 we are talking about. It is not fair to you that you should have that loss.

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All good advice. He does have a multitude of other snake sales, and probably does ok on the most part because honestly most snakes are problem free. I think he has a cinnamon line that has genetic problems, if you look at his supers he has sold in the past, a number of them state that they have kinks. I think he should cull his bad line and focus on the good. For me I would have been fine if he would just own up to selling a bad snake and take responsibility for it. I have to say, I read all the communication between the breeder and my wife. He was very pleasant. She specifically asked him if the kink would be an issue and he assured her it would not be. He tone changed completely when I approached him about the condition of the snake and sent him this same video. He became very defensive.
thanks for the advice.

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Originally Posted by Russell Bye

All good advice. He does have a multitude of other snake sales, and probably does ok on the most part because honestly most snakes are problem free. I think he has a cinnamon line that has genetic problems, if you look at his supers he has sold in the past, a number of them state that they have kinks. I think he should cull his bad line and focus on the good. For me I would have been fine if he would just own up to selling a bad snake and take responsibility for it. I have to say, I read all the communication between the breeder and my wife. He was very pleasant. She specifically asked him if the kink would be an issue and he assured her it would not be. He tone changed completely when I approached him about the condition of the snake and sent him this same video. He became very defensive.
thanks for the advice.

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Then bring all of it out in the open! Post it. Including the video. True, you were told about the kink, so there was no misrepresentation. But you were told the kink didn't seem to bother the snake.

So here are my questions.

What does the snake weigh now? What did it weigh when you got it? How often has it fed for the breeder and what did he feed it ?
You say the bad problem started after the snake ate its first meal with you ? What exactly happened during that feed? Was the snake able to kill (unless f/t) constrict and eat it without problem? With problems? Was the tail limp and the snake flailing BEFORE that meal and after you got it ?

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Originally Posted by Russell Bye

All good advice. He does have a multitude of other snake sales, and probably does ok on the most part because honestly most snakes are problem free. I think he has a cinnamon line that has genetic problems, if you look at his supers he has sold in the past, a number of them state that they have kinks. I think he should cull his bad line and focus on the good. For me I would have been fine if he would just own up to selling a bad snake and take responsibility for it. I have to say, I read all the communication between the breeder and my wife. He was very pleasant. She specifically asked him if the kink would be an issue and he assured her it would not be. He tone changed completely when I approached him about the condition of the snake and sent him this same video. He became very defensive.
thanks for the advice.

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It’s not just his line. The super cinnamon morph is known for having defects. That’s the reason a lot of people don’t breed them.


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Originally Posted by Jbabycsx

It’s not just his line. The super cinnamon morph is known for having defects. That’s the reason a lot of people don’t breed them.


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Yes. It's one of the morphs that should not be bred.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by zina10

There is a facebook page for inquiries, praise and criticism now. It gets a LOT of traffic, I dare say even more so then Fauna Classified.

You should look it up , ask to join, and then post. Just like with Fauna, make sure you read the rules and then post with all information you have. Pictures, screen shots of text messages, anything at all.

FBI - Feedback and Inquiries For Reptiles << that is it, find it on facebook


I did a search on there and there are 2 posts regarding that breeder. Each time nothing but praise...Although those posts aren't that long. One has 34 comments, that one was an inquiry. Then there is a praise one, with 4 comments.

Doesn't mean he didn't mess up this time and shouldn't be held accountable.

You will definitely need to answer how and where the snake was housed while your wife kept it a secret. Even the breeder will question whether it has been housed correctly. Even though that doesn't change a kink in the neck.

Just have all your ducks in a row and then go with it. You can 100% ask for your money back through paypal. Do a charge back. Do NOT euthanize the snake. While it may be the kind thing to do, while all this is going on, it needs to stay alive. And you may have to return it.

While its easy to be noble online and say the snake shouldn't go back to that guy, this is $500 we are talking about. It is not fair to you that you should have that loss.

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I'm going to hire you to be my SPA (Snake Purchasing Advocate)! My head is spinning.

I would never sell a hatchling with a defect. No matter what morph, cheap, expensive, normal.

It just doesn't seem right. I would re-home it carefully, to the right home, to someone with experience and willingness to take it on. If the defect was to severe, then I would do the heartbreaking task of putting it down.

"You forever become responsible for what you have tamed" You are also responsible for what you have created. And a snake with no quality of life means you do the hard thing.

I didn't even sell one of my hatchlings that had no other issues then being a difficult starter. Refused to eat, like some just do. To the point of assist feeding after all other options were exhausted. Even assist feeding was challenging with that one. I eventually got it to eat. Then to eat on its own. Then it would grab, coil and eat with gusto! After 3 or 4 of those great feedings I gave that one away, despite being a gorgeous looking morph and a sweet heart. It just didn't feel right to sell her. She went to a good home with full disclosure. If she had gone back to not eating because of the stress of moving, she would have come back to me.
She is a TREASURED pet now. I get pictures frequently. She is growing and thriving and gorgeous. She has never refused a meal yet. She is the sister to "Sunny" my Super Emperor Pinstripe girl. Her sister is just as gorgeous.

Actually, most of my hatchlings were either given away or sold at low prices. Same for the adults I "sold". This way I was able to be very picky about where they ended up. However, there is NOTHING wrong with good breeders asking good prices. I have no problem paying for a healthy snake with the genetics I want from a GOOD and REPUTABLE source.

He may be a good breeder with quality animals. He may (so far) have a great reputation. If the snake was in as bad of a shape in his care as it is now, it shouldn't have been sold, period! I would love to hear what he has to say.

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Originally Posted by MR Snakes

I'm going to hire you to be my SPA (Snake Purchasing Advocate)! My head is spinning.

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I've been in those circles for quite a long time. The BOI and FBI are sometime entertaining to read. Sometimes you just wonder how low people can sink and you feel like you need to shower after reading. Such scumbags out there. But it also teaches you who/what to stay away from.

I cannot say this enough, do your homework before buying. It can save you a lot of head ache and heart ache. I think you will be just fine, though, you have learned a TON already, and fast, too. I think your snakes will be some very fortunate ones, indeed. The way it should be :)

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Originally Posted by zina10

I would never sell a hatchling with a defect. No matter what morph, cheap, expensive, normal.

It just doesn't seem right. I would re-home it carefully, to the right home, to someone with experience and willingness to take it on. If the defect was to severe, then I would do the heartbreaking task of putting it down.

"You forever become responsible for what you have tamed" You are also responsible for what you have created. And a snake with no quality of life means you do the hard thing.

I didn't even sell one of my hatchlings that had no other issues then being a difficult starter. Refused to eat, like some just do. To the point of assist feeding after all other options were exhausted. Even assist feeding was challenging with that one. I eventually got it to eat. Then to eat on its own. Then it would grab, coil and eat with gusto! After 3 or 4 of those great feedings I gave that one away, despite being a gorgeous looking morph and a sweet heart. It just didn't feel right to sell her. She went to a good home with full disclosure. If she had gone back to not eating because of the stress of moving, she would have come back to me.
She is a TREASURED pet now. I get pictures frequently. She is growing and thriving and gorgeous. She has never refused a meal yet. She is the sister to "Sunny" my Super Emperor Pinstripe girl. Her sister is just as gorgeous.

Actually, most of my hatchlings were either given away or sold at low prices. Same for the adults I "sold". This way I was able to be very picky about where they ended up. However, there is NOTHING wrong with good breeders asking good prices. I have no problem paying for a healthy snake with the genetics I want from a GOOD and REPUTABLE source.

He may be a good breeder with quality animals. He may (so far) have a great reputation. If the snake was in as bad of a shape in his care as it is now, it shouldn't have been sold, period! I would love to hear what he has to say.

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Very well said.
Your outlook is refreshing and commendable [emoji173]

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Originally Posted by Jellybeans

Yes. It's one of the morphs that should not be bred.

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I have learned this fact as well. Maybe a little late, but the super does seem to have its issues. I just don't think that if a breeder sales this morph with issues to a person with little knowledge and tells them that a kink will cause no issues, then that is irresponsible.

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Originally Posted by zina10

I would never sell a hatchling with a defect. No matter what morph, cheap, expensive, normal.

It just doesn't seem right. I would re-home it carefully, to the right home, to someone with experience and willingness to take it on. If the defect was to severe, then I would do the heartbreaking task of putting it down.

"You forever become responsible for what you have tamed" You are also responsible for what you have created. And a snake with no quality of life means you do the hard thing.

I didn't even sell one of my hatchlings that had no other issues then being a difficult starter. Refused to eat, like some just do. To the point of assist feeding after all other options were exhausted. Even assist feeding was challenging with that one. I eventually got it to eat. Then to eat on its own. Then it would grab, coil and eat with gusto! After 3 or 4 of those great feedings I gave that one away, despite being a gorgeous looking morph and a sweet heart. It just didn't feel right to sell her. She went to a good home with full disclosure. If she had gone back to not eating because of the stress of moving, she would have come back to me.
She is a TREASURED pet now. I get pictures frequently. She is growing and thriving and gorgeous. She has never refused a meal yet. She is the sister to "Sunny" my Super Emperor Pinstripe girl. Her sister is just as gorgeous.

Actually, most of my hatchlings were either given away or sold at low prices. Same for the adults I "sold". This way I was able to be very picky about where they ended up. However, there is NOTHING wrong with good breeders asking good prices. I have no problem paying for a healthy snake with the genetics I want from a GOOD and REPUTABLE source.

He may be a good breeder with quality animals. He may (so far) have a great reputation. If the snake was in as bad of a shape in his care as it is now, it shouldn't have been sold, period! I would love to hear what he has to say.

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I just wish everyone had these same morals. It is fine for people to have a business and make profits, but never sell an animal with defects just to make money.

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Originally Posted by zina10

I've been in those circles for quite a long time. The BOI and FBI are sometime entertaining to read. Sometimes you just wonder how low people can sink and you feel like you need to shower after reading. Such scumbags out there. But it also teaches you who/what to stay away from.

I cannot say this enough, do your homework before buying. It can save you a lot of head ache and heart ache. I think you will be just fine, though, you have learned a TON already, and fast, too. I think your snakes will be some very fortunate ones, indeed. The way it should be :)

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Dummie here.......what is BOI & FBI? You're not in trouble now?

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Originally Posted by Russell Bye

I have learned this fact as well. Maybe a little late, but the super does seem to have its issues. I just don't think that if a breeder sales this morph with issues to a person with little knowledge and tells them that a kink will cause no issues, then that is irresponsible.

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You are absolutely right.
I myself have just recently learned of all the ball python morph issues.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by zina10

I've been in those circles for quite a long time. The BOI and FBI are sometime entertaining to read. Sometimes you just wonder how low people can sink and you feel like you need to shower after reading. Such scumbags out there. But it also teaches you who/what to stay away from.

I cannot say this enough, do your homework before buying. It can save you a lot of head ache and heart ache. I think you will be just fine, though, you have learned a TON already, and fast, too. I think your snakes will be some very fortunate ones, indeed. The way it should be :)

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I learned early on about less than ethical breeders/sellers when I bought my Solomon Island ground boa who was “captive bred and feeding on small mice” at the table when I purchased him. When I reached out to the vendor when he refused to eat, all of a sudden he was wild caught and ‘usually’ ate lizards...ummm, not those either. :weirdface I eventually got him eating, but it was initially assist feeding when he started dropping weight.

For new buyers it can be overwhelming at times, and there doesn’t seem to be much available for this seller so there wouldn’t have been any red flags. These forums and websites at least help weed out some of the worst sellers. Hopefully the seller will make good on the purchase or there are avenues available through the purchasing vendor to get their money back. I do agree to handling this professionally through the appropriate chanels and keeping the animal alive until it is resolved. Best of luck to the OP.