When is it okay to demand a refund?

I'm not posting this on fauna's BOI yet or anything, because I don't really know how the buying/selling of stuff works very well, or when things are legal or not... So I have a few questions.

The situation is I paid for a cage to a guy (who will for now remain unnamed, but let me know if it's okay to name him LOL) on February 7th. It was $325. But a problem is that I'm an idiot and send the money "as a gift/friends" on paypal, because I thought he was trustworthy, since someone else recommended him to me. I'm now 100% sure this is already the point where I'm screwed lol, but have to ask for advice still.

Anyway, he first stated it would take 2 weeks to make and send the cage. In fact, it took him a month and a half (over 3 weeks his original deadline) because of this or that reason, his family is in the hospital, etc etc. he kept pushing the "deadline" forward multiple times.

The cage finally arrives to me on April 3rd, BROKEN... 1. because fedex screwed up and flipped it all around, but 2. mainly the "this side up/fragile" was not written clearly on the package. I didn't even see it at first. So I have to wrap it up, fedex picked it up on the 4th or 5th or something, and it's supposedly on its way back to him. I asked him for a refund on that day, but he said he will "make me a new cage ASAP".

Now he says he's going to wait for the broken cage to arrive for him instead, because he "doesn't want to spend more money on making me a new one ASAP". It's April 23rd and the broken cage hasn't arrived to him yet, and he isn't making me anything.

Now I'm asking him for a refund again, which he refuses to give me, and says he will make me a new cage. I can't escalate a claim because of my sending it as a gift... obviously... But I have no date on when he will receive it, he didn't give me info on the claim he supposedly filed with fedex, and I have no clue when he will actually finish it and send it again.

Assuming I wasn't an idiot and didn't send "as a gift", when is it okay to DEMAND a refund and escalate a claim? Can a seller actually refuse a refund for something like this?

and since I did send "as gift", I assume there's just nothing I can do, right? If there is, please let me know.

Through Paypal, no, you cannot do a thing. Un-fortunately.

I will absolutely, 100% REFUSE to do any business with anyone that asks to be paid that way. They can be the best breeder, company with the best feedback there is.
Asking to be paid that way screws the buyer AND paypal (out of the fees they should be getting)

A business that is professional simply absorbs those fees or factors them into the price.

But, you already knew this...but no, paypal won't do a claim.

Did you pay with a Credit or Debit card (through paypal). If so, its worth making a phone call to the issuing bank.

Aside from that, ask him one more time, nicely, and then tell him you will have to make this public. And then do it. BOI on Facebook, Fauna, here...wherever.

You will obviously not get satisfaction from him, and he is pulling you around by your nose hair because he knows of the paypal policy.

Well, public opinion can make a HUGE impact on sale, as he will figure out quickly. Is this someone that operates as a business? Or more a private person doing this as a little side income? Do
they do quite a bit of business online?

He has jerked you around long enough. At this point I would be tired of him dictating the entire thing. I also think that your chances of getting something satisfactory by simply waiting are less, then getting something satisfactory after public pressure.

As sad as that is.

Of course, it is all up to you...But I would have had enough of this weeks ago, and most certainly at this point.

Unfortunately there is nothing PayPal will do for you. Did you back the payment up with cc? If so, you may have recourse thru them.

Shipping it back: Thru whom did you send it and how did you send it? (Ex: FedEx ground return receipt) You should have a receipt with a tracking number. Go online and track the package. You will know where it's at and a delivery day estimate. You can't do anything until he has both your money and the returned item. Do you have concrete proof of the agreement to ship it back and have it replaced?

After you track the package, contact him thru text or email, not a phone call because you need proof, spelling out what you ordered, when it arrived, its condition (I hope you have pictures of the carton and damaged item), the agreement to make it right, the date and method of your return shipping including the tracking number, the anticipated arrival date, and based on that date, ask him for an anticipated date of completion/shipping to you with shipping method info and his plan to help avoid another damaged cage (for example, more padding and/or better labels. Also clarify who paid/will pay the several shipping fees.

This communication will provide a clear a concise description of events, issues and remedies.

If you don't get an undamaged cage in an agreed upon amount of time, you have recourse thru your cc, if you used one.

BUT contact the cc company NOW and give them a brief overview to find out what your time limitations are to file a claim. Usually it's only 90 days from purchase.

If the cc company cant help or you didn't use a cc, there is always small claims court. This has its own set of problems, especially if you are in different states.

Any chance the friend who connected you two could intervene?

I hope things work out well. What a disappointment.

Thanks for the advice zina, and I paid with paypal funds, not with a card. Ugh unfortunately, I was just trying to be nice and trusting by sending him money without the fees. He didn't request that of me. I will never do that again though, lesson learned, something is bound to go wrong.

Here's the chat, and he's currently finally accepting to send me a refund, after I threatened with the publicizing, which I didn't do before. I guess that is what always works. I really am sick of this, and I'm a patient person!

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...%2F13z2uk0.jpg

Dlena: thanks for the advice! Funnily, the friend who has recommended him to me has been intervening lightly, but it didn't help. I think he might be going through the same exact thing with the seller right now actually, but since he sent money as goods/services, it's much easier to get that refund (I think).

It was through fedex, so I'll contact them again and see how it turned out and ask for tracking... they came over to pick it up for free, since it was damaged by feded through shipment, at least partially. Though if this guy can finally send me a refund, I would care less about the broken cage.

Sorry for duplicate info, Zina is a much faster typist than I am. Again, good luck.
And based on how things go, you absolutely should take the time to post this on the BOI on FC. Make sure you provide all your documentation.

Thanks guys. Also, I forgot to answer, he's more like a side income and I don't think he has done much business online, since his good reviews I see are all from people picking up their cages/racks at shows, in person.

I would post this on fauna's BOI as a warning to others, but I also don't want to cause a ruckus or make enemies... Especially since I did send the money as "friends and family", it's my fault for being too nice aka an idiot in the first place, or else escalating a claim would be so much easier. I probably could have gotten my refund a couple months ago, if that.

eta:
Also omg, he sent me that "I'll look it back up" 30 minutes ago... Is this even true? How do I even believe this guy anymore lol.
https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...m%2Ft7btdj.jpg

I will say this as a person that does freelance commissions and uses paypal to get paid: DO NOT EVER USE THE GIFT OPTION WHEN PAYING FOR A PRODUCT/SERVICE. It not only protects you, the buyer, in case you want a refund, but it also protects the seller. Further, it's against Paypal's terms of service to get around the service fee, and a seller WILL get their account locked and all their funds frozen. Even if you think you're doing a favor by sending as gift: don't. It's really not a favor at all. And if they ask you to send it like that, back away slowly, that seller is NOT on the up-and-up.

What you CAN do, if you think the product is worth it and wish to show your appreciation as such, is tip the seller. Though I would advise to save tipping for after your product is received.

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Originally Posted by Lizardlicks

I will say this as a person that does freelance commissions and uses paypal to get paid: DO NOT EVER USE THE GIFT OPTION WHEN PAYING FOR A PRODUCT/SERVICE. It not only protects you, the buyer, in case you want a refund, but it also protects the seller. Further, it's against Paypal's terms of service to get around the service fee, and a seller WILL get their account locked and all their funds frozen. Even if you think you're doing a favor by sending as gift: don't. It's really not a favor at all. And if they ask you to send it like that, back away slowly, that seller is NOT on the up-and-up.

What you CAN do, if you think the product is worth it and wish to show your appreciation as such, is tip the seller. Though I would advise to save tipping for after your product is received.

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Yeah, I'm not doing that again, as you know if you read my posts :\ lmfao

Unfortunately you sound kind of screwed. Your only real chance is to probably try and shame him into making you whole again by posting the deal on BOI of Faunaclassifieds or send him a letter saying if he doesn't give you a cage or a refund, you will take him to small claims court.

That is why you never send money through Paypal as 'gift/friend'. If you didn't, then you could have filed a claim with Paypal in 90 days. I had to do that once and since I've used Paypal a ton and never had a single issue, they processed my claim very fast and i was taken care of.

Also while it is your fault for sending cash 'gift/friends', it's not your fault for not receiving a cage. That is all his fault and screw if you make an enemy out of him, he stole your money. I'd be raising a stink on BOI all over. Heck, if you know what state he's in, i would contact the attorney General and tell him of the issues. If he didnt want all this negative feedback, he should have just made you the cage. Not your fault, you fulfilled your end of the bargain with the payment. Good luck.

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Anyway, he first stated it would take 2 weeks to make and send the cage. In fact, it took him a month and a half (over 3 weeks his original deadline) because of this or that reason, his family is in the hospital, etc etc. he kept pushing the "deadline" forward multiple times.

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While I understand that things happen (been there done that) when you run a business your customer need to be taken care of, problem or not and if you can’t immediate refund and apology for the situation should be offered.

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Now he says he's going to wait for the broken cage to arrive for him instead, because he "doesn't want to spend more money on making me a new one ASAP". It's April 23rd and the broken cage hasn't arrived to him yet, and he isn't making me anything.

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Poor excuse IMO, he knows and has proof that the cage is on the way and a new one should be out or being worked on.

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Now I'm asking him for a refund again, which he refuses to give me

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The fact that he is refusing to issue a refund his troubling to me, he fails to meet the deadline, the product once received was not satisfactory and had to be return anyone in this situation not only should refund the money that was sent but he should have actually been the one offering to do so without having you asking for it.

Between all that I would definitely ask for a refund, customer service is very important and I feel that he does not value his customers the way a business should.

Sadly since you paid with paypal funds there is little that can be done since it was sent as a gift, if it had been with your card it would be different.

I would make a last attempt and tell him that if you do not receive a refund you will simply post on the BOI, between the missed deadline, additional wait while the cage is confirmed to be on it's way back and refusing to offer a refund it will not look good for him.

It will come down to refunding your money or get his reputation tarnished, pretty easy choice for most people.

It's rather telling that his PayPal funds are locked up due to a different chargeback/dispute. Have you researched this person on the Fauna BOI or on any of the Facebook reptile feedback forums?

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Originally Posted by bcr229

It's rather telling that his PayPal funds are locked up due to a different chargeback/dispute. Have you researched this person on the Fauna BOI or on any of the Facebook reptile feedback forums?

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His only two reviews on fauna are from customers buying snakes, not cages/racks, and they're from years ago. (good reviews)

He has a few good reviews on his facebook page, but only one of them has a description. I'm not sure if that was cage was picked up in person or not. So basically, there are no actual reviews on having cages made and delivered through shipping.

He has almost 1000 likes on his facebook page too. I didn't expect customer service like this.

eta: I just found his account on fauna, and he does have one red dot instead of a green dot. But I have no idea what that means.

Not sure if you told him you made a mistake and sent it Paypal Friends & Family but Id try to Bluff him and tell him your done waiting and if you don't have a Paypal pending refund by tomorrow your opening a Credit Card Paypal Claim (he doesn't know you had funds in Paypal you used) and you'll Post on BOI.
You are way past the point of being understanding now, this guy has taken total advantage of you because you've been so nice. It's time not to be nice.
Ive had this problem with Equipment Ive bought online. I had a scam run on me last summer and they got me for $5000. After 4 months I got my money from Paypal. I will never do transactions for that kind of money again. Even though I got it back it took hours of my time each week calling and sitting on HOLD and pushing Paypal to pursue. On top of that there was a computer glitch and my whole claim was lost 1/2 way through the process. Nightmare.
Im sorry this happened. Of course its a lesson. I am like you and try to do a solid for people i do business with however i have learned that business is business period. Learn and move on is all we can do [emoji1360]

Ps- 1000 likes on facebook is nothing... You can get 1/2 that by accident. My daughter clicks and likes anything she sees in her newsfeed from what ive looked at or commented on hahahhahahaha


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Thanks for all the info and tips guys, I will continue trying to pressure him through publicizing what's happened, and I got a good gist of what a terrible seller this guy is. I took a load of screenshots of almost our entire chat since February, just in case I need to use it on BOI. I'll only post on BOI if he doesn't refund me once his account is unlocked, since I gave him a day to screenshot/forward to me the info about his account being locked.

I guess even if I did make the mistake of sending funds as gift on paypal, I still paid him. It's the equivalent of handing him cash in real life in exchange for a service, I guess.

How long are accounts usually locked for these reasons? What's a reasonable amount of time for me to wait for him to resolve this? Any idea how I could keep getting proof that his account is locked, or he's just stalling?

If he keeps stalling about paypal, is it reasonable for me to ask him to mail me a check? Or does that have risks?

It's possible his account will be frozen indefinitely if he's violated Paypal Terms of Service, in which case Paypal gets to keep what ever money he had in his account and EVERY ONE is just sol.

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Originally Posted by Lizardlicks

It's possible his account will be frozen indefinitely if he's violated Paypal Terms of Service, in which case Paypal gets to keep what ever money he had in his account and EVERY ONE is just sol.

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Darn, let's hope not! Or in that case, I suppose it's reasonable to ask him to send me a check?

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Originally Posted by redshepherd

Darn, let's hope not! Or in that case, I suppose it's reasonable to ask him to send me a check?

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Don't do it.

Checks can bounce, even days after you deposit it. And then its another couple of weeks later and a whole nother mess to deal with.

If anything, ask for a postal money order sent registered mail. Tell him to deduct $5 from the total in order to send it registered.

Well, that's what I would do. I have a feeling he isn't done jerking you around yet, though :(

Your right Zina this guy is playing games still im sorry to say. If he was a good business man he would be sending it anyway possible, a money order or western union ect.... Im going to be blunt with you and its only to prove a point not bust your chops ... "STOP ASKING WHATS A REASONABLE AMOUNT OF TIME FOR HIM TO GIVE YOU PROOF OF THIS SHAM".
You have paid in full for services he has not delivered, enough already and tell him you want your money SENT within 1 business day or your taking action. Everything you have done has shown this person your easy. This is your hard earned money, your family can use this before he can have it.. Tell him his Paypal problems are NOT YOUR PROBLEMS and that you paid with a credit card and are reporting this as fraud!!!!! Most likely once he hears that he will either send it or try and stall again, so stop falling for it and stick to the story about reporting a claim to the Credit card company. Let him know all Txts are being sent to them too.
Get mad and put yourself (the customer) first. Best of luck [emoji1360]
Play Hard Ball.


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Okay thanks for the advice guys, here we are.

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...weioruweio.jpg

Is this true? If your paypal account is locked, you can't send usps money orders...?

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...ep%2Fimage.jpg

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...y9%2Fimage.jpg

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I cant believe you have given the enemy the leverage you may have had. You told him outright you screwed up and sent it Friends & Family??? You just showed him all your cards. I was trying to explain earlier not to leave yourself open like that.
If he insured this package and you paid for it then id contact Fedex and see what they suggest. Call Paypal too and tell them you chose Friends & Family BY ACCIDENT. See what they suggest because at this point not to be mean but you have shown this jerk all your cards.
By the way to answer your question, PAYPAL is a private company, this guy is lying his butt off if he said he cant send a money order and you just keep falling for all his nonsense.


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Wow- he is so shady! It's just excuse after excuse. The way he is being overly defensive is definitely one of the many red flags. Make sure that you follow up on your threats. If he keeps dodging doing the right thing then he deserves to have his name dragged through the mud!

by the sound of that text he sent the reason it took this guy so long to send your cage is because he is 30 cents short of a Quarter. He has NO MONEY. What he is going to do now is get the damaged cage back, replace the damaged parts cheap because he does not have the cash to give you anymore. Go with legitimate companies from now on. This whole transaction was a bad decision. Make sure it taught you something and that way it isn't a loss my friend.


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Originally Posted by Mr Sully

I cant believe you have given the enemy the leverage you may have had. You told him outright you screwed up and sent it Friends & Family??? You just showed him all your cards. I was trying to explain earlier not to leave yourself open like that.
If he insured this package and you paid for it then id contact Fedex and see what they suggest. Call Paypal too and tell them you chose Friends & Family BY ACCIDENT. See what they suggest because at this point not to be mean but you have shown this jerk all your cards.
By the way to answer your question, PAYPAL is a private company, this guy is lying his butt off if he said he cant send a money order and you just keep falling for all his nonsense.


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See, this is why I'm not posting on BOI, because I'm just a noob here trying to figure this out.

He says ALL of his funds are on paypal. This makes zero sense now.

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...gz%2Fimage.jpg

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Originally Posted by redshepherd

See, this is why I'm not posting on BOI, because I'm just a noob here trying to figure this out.

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Its not that your a noob buddy, but slow down and think about your move before you take it. People like that prey of people that trust or who are honest because they know you will keep giving them the benefit of the doubt.
At this point you better just get the enclosure because everything this person has said points to the fact he has had financial problems already and thats why his Paypal is frozen. Someone has most likely opened a case on him and when that happens his account is froze. Call Paypal credit and ask them if this guy has a history. Explain he has taken your money but please remember not to admit you sent it Friends & Family on purpose otherwise they will say your out of luck. Tell them you chose that BY MISTAKE.


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Originally Posted by Mr Sully

Go with legitimate companies from now on. This whole transaction was a bad decision. Make sure it taught you something and that way it isn't a loss my friend.

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Clearly, from my very first post...

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Originally Posted by Mr Sully

Its not that your a noob buddy, but slow down and think about your move before you take it. People like that prey of people that trust or who are honest because they know you will keep giving them the benefit of the doubt.
At this point you better just get the enclosure because everything this person has said points to the fact he has had financial problems already and thats why his Paypal is frozen. Someone has most likely opened a case on him and when that happens his account is froze. Call Paypal credit and ask them if this guy has a history. Explain he has taken your money but please remember not to admit you sent it Friends & Family on purpose otherwise they will say your out of luck. Tell them you chose that BY MISTAKE.


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Okay, will do. Also, I'm not a buddy, I'm 23 years old and a girl lmfao.

Sorry this happened. ... One more thing though, as you go though this situation with this guy stop telling him " I just found out" ect.... What your doing is showing him that you do not know of what he says is true so you research it. This is how he is conning you.. He knows he can feed you Boloney.
Nobody keeps all there money in Paypal. What this means is that he is BROKE, has no money in the bank and his PAYPAL is now locked from fraudulent activity. Stop playing games and call Paypal. I guarantee his account is frozen because someone else has a case open on him. Next time you'll know to spend $325 with AP.

PS: buddy means Friend . Thank god I didn't call you Bro hahahaha
PSS: edit your last post. The abbreviation for LMBO will get you a Write up (points) for swearing.


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I can't believe this. LOL

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...0v%2Fimage.jpg

Also yeah I'll be calling paypal

Well all I can say is at least he is answering txts.. for now anyway... Like i said im sorry this happened.. Ive gotten taken too before. Tuff lesson especially when thats a lot of money especially for younger people :(


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Nobody keeps all there money in Paypal.

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Incorrect. I know PLENTY of people who's sole means of access to money is via Paypal. They set up a Paypal account to receive money via youtube, patreon, commissions etc. Paypal sends them a debit card, and they do all their business AS IF Paypal were a bank, even though it isn't. Not everyone has a 9-5 paycheck and direct deposit in a regular bank/credit union, especially if their credit is crap or they have over draft stuff from previous accounts etc. It's not smart BECAUSE Paypal is a private company that sets terms and conditions on their use, and they can and WILL freeze your account, and every penny you have is just -poof!- gone if you do something wrong. But people still do it either because they don't know any better or they don't have a choice.

Okay, but I did find something out. I'll update tomorrow.

Actually, if the guy is this irresponsible with his financing (not having enough to build a new cage/not being able to refund out right and wants to simply repair the broken cage to save on material costs leads me to believe he's mismanaging his business costs) and customer service, I'm betting that he was keeping all his money in Paypal BECAUSE he's got over draft fees from his bank that he didn't want to have eaten into.

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Originally Posted by Lizardlicks

Incorrect. I know PLENTY of people who's sole means of access to money is via Paypal. .

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Your right and i should of explained all that but i was just trying to give a quick response and not confuse her after all this craziness hahahaha.
What I should of said is that anyone that keeps all their finances with Paypal is most likely someone nobody should do business with. Several people do use Paypal like you said Lizard and for the reasons you said.. Its to bad but we all have to be defensive & very careful when doing business in person and online. To many people have problems that become our problems otherwise. I was one of those that always gave people the benefit of the doubt or second chances and that never worked out in my favor. Unfortunately it makes you a little hard but it also keeps you from getting screwed.


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I think it's a good time now to reveal that his name is Mitchel Lack of Outlaw Exotics, and he is absolutely a bad guy in my situation. I'll update what has happened tomorrow.

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Originally Posted by redshepherd

I think it's a good time now to reveal that his name is Mitchel Lack of Outlaw Exotics, and he is absolutely a bad guy in my situation. I'll update what has happened tomorrow.

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I'm so sorry this has all gone down to "crap" the way it has.

What I would like to say is this...do NOT blame yourself. This is not your fault.
He is being a crook, that is all there is to it. He is taking advantage of you and jerking you around. So what if you paid friends and family. It might leave you unprotected now, but you DID PAY.

HE is the bad one here, please keep that in mind at all times.

Crooks will be crooks. Even when you do everything right, or try to protect yourself as good as possible, crooks find ways to screw you over.

What it sounds like is the typical situation of "spent the money" and then didn't have any to buy materials to make the cage. Finally got more money for more cages, so spent some of "their" money on your cage, hastily putting it together. Now its broken, which can happen, so he "should" take care of you. But he doesn't, because once again he has spent all funds, and not where he should have. He should have received that cage back by now, and he should have received money from FedEx.

Most likely he is waiting on new orders, so he has more money coming in. Which he will spend on whatever, but not on those peoples orders. If you are lucky, some may come your way.

He is just stalling. I don't believe for one nanosecond that he even HAS funds in paypal.

Instead of applying the funds he gets towards each order, making sure the order is filled in a timely manner, shipped in a timely manner and NOT spending the profit on it UNTIL everything went well and the transaction is closed he is "borrowing from Heinz to pay Kunz" like we say in Germany. Meaning taking money from one person to pay back another, and so on and forth.

I bet he runs his entire business like that. Which is as crooked as can be.

No matter what I sell, I ALWAYS always hold on to the funds until the buyer gets back to me, letting me know they are happy and everything went well.

Once again, do not feel guilty, or like you did wrong. You did right. He did wrong.

You will just learn that you can't trust hardly anyone and that you have to protect yourself as good as you can. Sad fact of life, to many crooks out there, or at least people with not ethics.

Well, I'm sorry this has happened to you but I think you were more than right to expose him. I just found the "Outlaw Exotics" facebook page. I saw a negative review left about an hour ago. It appears you aren't alone in this matter or the community is taking up for you (unless it was your comment I happened to find, haha).

Best of luck going forwards. I really hope you are refunded soon! I will continue following the story.

Having read the initial post and the rest of it from what I understand it's really not either you or the sellers fault at least initially. Fedex broke your cage.

Yeah, its his fault for asking to send money as gifts and not having the necessary capital to easily replace a broken item, but like you said, its a side business. He should have immediately taken the issue up with his shipping company.

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Originally Posted by Jhill001

Having read the initial post and the rest of it from what I understand it's really not either you or the sellers fault at least initially. Fedex broke your cage.

Yeah, its his fault for asking to send money as gifts and not having the necessary capital to easily replace a broken item, but like you said, its a side business. He should have immediately taken the issue up with his shipping company.

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But that's not what happened. I'm not trying to be rude but it's obvious you didn't ACTUALLY read everything in this thread. It has been stated many times the money was never requested to be sent as money/gift. The buyer did this to try to help the seller out. She has also been lectured about why this is a bad idea and gets it. It was immediately taken up with the shipping company. There are many reasons why many believe it to be the sellers fault. Let's go through the events again.

- Enclosure paid in full ($325) on 2/7/17.
- Enclosure estimated timeframe ~ 2 weeks. We'll call it 2/21/17.
- Enclosure not completed until sometime between 3/20/17 and 3/27/17.
- Enclosure arrived 4/3/17 damaged. It may very well have been FedEx's fault BUT the package was very poorly labeled.
- Refund immediately requested on 4/3/17. Seller persuades buyer into allowing him to immediately build a new one and have it shipped out to her.
- Shipping claim filed immediately as FedEx picked the enclosure back up on either 4/4/17 or 4/5/17.
- Seller takes it upon himself to decide not to immediately build a new enclosure and to wait for old one to return to use scraps because he has blown all of his funds.
- As of 4/23/17, a refund has been requested many times. He has not even begun to build a new enclosure in lieu of a refund. He has claimed to have no way to give her a refund. FedEx still (supposedly) has not delivered enclosure back to seller.

The bottom line is it has been two and a half months since an enclosure was paid for, in full. Side gig or not, this is irresponsible and just plain wrong. If you aren't building quality enclosures that can be shipped, provide horrible customer service, and don't know how to manage your finances well enough to right your wrongs when you do mess up, you don't need to be taking money from people.

OP, do you know if there was any shipping insurance placed on the enclosure? I don't imagine this to be the case but some people even abuse shipping insurance. He sends a subpar enclosure that he can recycle materials from. Enclosure is "damaged" in shipping. He gets enclosure sent back and cashes in from the shipping insurance. He "fixes" the enclosure as cheaply as possible, ships it back out, and not only makes money on the enclosure but probably tucked a couple extra hundred dollars in his pocket from the insurance check FedEx gives him.

It also sounds as if there is more incriminating evidence coming from the buyer's most recent statement.

Time limit expired to edit post :mad:

I also think one of the MOST frustrating parts for me (besides the idea of not getting my money back) would be the turnaround time she's in for when picking a new, honest, reputable enclosure manufacturer to do business with! She's already been screwed around for two and a half months. She may have 6+ weeks to wait for an enclosure depending upon who she decides to go with.

Just an FYI.... 5 star reviews with no comment mean nothing it they don't have a comment to go with them, then again I feel the same about any review without taking the time to comment.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by redshepherd

See, this is why I'm not posting on BOI, because I'm just a noob here trying to figure this out.

He says ALL of his funds are on paypal. This makes zero sense now.

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...gz%2Fimage.jpg

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Doubtful he probably means his "business found" money coming in from cages an animals.

I can guarentee he has money elsewhere to pay everyday bills (phone,cell phone, mortgage), I am pretty sure he buys gas as well if he does not use cash and use a credit card he has a cash advance limit he should use to withdraw cash and send a MO.

If he has a personal bank account ask for a Cashier Check.

Keep in mind that if he has no money available has he alledge how will he build or ship your new cage if he cannot buy the material and Paypal locked his account for an undetermined amount of time. He will take another 1,2,3 months, more? Ask him and tell him it's not acceptable

Paypal, locking his account is not YOUR problem, and if he want to make it right he need to refund your money at this point.

What are his term? On refund, dealings etc?

I called paypal last night and this morning, and the paypal person told me last night that his account is NOT locked.

So this guy has been lying to me, and who knows what else he is lying about, probably has been lying to me about everything for the past 3 months, and is a total bad guy.

I just spent an hour calling paypal this morning, and they just can't do anything about anything being sent as friends family. But they said that they'll call and email him to try to get me a refund (obviously that won't do anything).

Now what do I do? How do I sue someone from a different state?

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...2r%2Fimage.jpg

He knew that paypal had this policy of not disclosing other people's information, but the paypal person yesterday really did me a favor and told me that his account is not locked. When I called today and brought it up repeatedly, the new people who talked to me didn't reveal that info to me. So I really got a nice person yesterday.

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...kj%2Fimage.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by redshepherd

I called paypal last night and this morning, and the paypal person told me last night that his account is NOT locked.

So this guy has been lying to me, and who knows what else he is lying about, probably has been lying to me about everything for the past 3 months, and is a total bad guy.

I just spent an hour calling paypal this morning, and they just can't do anything about anything being sent as friends family. But they said that they'll call and email him to try to get me a refund (obviously that won't do anything).

Now what do I do? How do I sue someone from a different state?

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I can't say that I'm surprised in the least, unfortunately. I bet you it is like I said, he spent the funds he got before applying them on cost of materials. He just doesn't care to make it right.
As late as March he was still active on ads in Fauna, buying and trading.

So I'm sure he has some money, just not willing to "waste" it on making things right. Or you just aren't a high priority for him :(

Suing across states will be difficult. Even in small claims court, you will spend more then you stand to get back. He knows all that. He knows he holds the cards.

At this point "outing" him is probably the best thing you can do. Either way, its not guaranteed that you will ever get anything, or anything satisfactory. He will try to black mail you into not outing him, saying you will only get something if you "wait". And then how long you wait? God knows.

For now, just prepare a "presentation". Prepare a detailed but to the point written account of what took place from beginning to now. Incl. what paypal said, etc. Then sort through all the screen shots and emails you have and put them into order.

Once you are ready to out him, you want to have everything as precise and easy to read through as possible. And then just fire away...

I would still mention that you will turn him into the FBI fraud department and that you will turn him in to the local authorities and such. It doesn't matter whether that will actually do anything, but it will make you feel better and it might put pressure on him. You have prove he scammed you, because he got caught in his own lie. See if you can get anything from paypal in writing, something that said as of this date this account was not closed.

I hate that this happened to you. Can't help but feel violated when someone scams you and then proceeds to lie through their teeth. Like I said before, don't beat YOURSELF up to bad. You are not the bad one here just for not protecting yourself better. You paid. You were patience (far more then I would have been) You gave him time and time again to make things right and all you got back was lies and BS.

edited to say: I didn't see your latest reply before I sent this one off, I guess paypal giving you a written statement is out. He is still lying. Even right now. And by now he should have had the cage back even if it was sent freaking pony express !!!! Is there no way you can find out the tracking for yourself ?

https://www.justice.gov/criminal-fraud/report-fraud

Did he sent you a "return label" for the cage? Did you take it to FedEx yourself?

Is there anyway you can find the return label email that was sent (if it was). Perhaps search your "trash" folder for it. If you took it to Fed Ex, go to the local office and ask them for help. If he called to have it picked up at your house, call HIS local hub and ask for help. If nothing more, how long it would take to arrive.

There is no way, no how, he didn't get it yet. There is not service through FedEx or UPS that is THAT slow. None. Not unless you sent it to another country.

OMG Sully please remove the review from his page.... I knew I shouldnt have disclosed this info yet

PLEASE DONT LEAVE A BAD REVIEW YET, ANYMORE!!! I won't get my refund until he sees zero bad reviews.

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...mx%2Fimage.jpg

Zina I still happen to have the call number for fedex, and they told me it is out for delivery today. So I guess there is one truth to this whole thing.

And if anyone knows Mr Sully in real life, please tell him to come online and delete the review!

Is it possible to move the thread into quarantine so that he can't read it/follow what is going on? That prevents non-users from seeing and posting, right?