Rat scratched my snake's eye, please help!!!

I fed my snake and I look at her closer and the rat scratched his eye! I do not know what to do, first picture is after she ate the rat on 12/19/16 night, second picture is the eye today 12/21/16 - below are links to pictures, I do not know how to post on this website

http://i64.tinypic.com/ao0r4o.jpg - first pic


http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=29w3if7&s=9 - second pic

That looks like stuck shed to me. Are you sure it was the rat?

Yes I noticed this rat after I fed her rat, I am positive she was scratched, in second picture u can see scratch above eye

I'd get the snake to a vet. If the living scale over the eye has been punctured, the snake will likely lose that eye.

Have you thought of switching to f/t?

I'd get her to the vet immediately if possible.

At first glance it looks like stuck a eye cap, but I don't believe so. Especially comparing the two pics you can see how it progressed to a worse condition.

The scratches go a bit diagonally from 11 o'clock to 6. Then there is once that looks like a hand on the clock at the 7 position. Or it is one wound that is splintering/spreading like cracked glass. Looks like the natural oils/fluids leaked or dried out.
Then a few millimeters away from the eye is another wound at 11 o' clock.

Sorry this happened. :( This is strong motivation to switch to frozen for sure. Not only for OP, but others as well.

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Another reason why not to feed live sorry buddy,as for the owner please take it to a vet before it catches an infection. Good luck.

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Originally Posted by Panic2336

Another reason why not to feed live sorry buddy,as for the owner please take it to a vet before it catches an infection. Good luck.

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This is a predominantly American populated forum so I'd probably advise against posting comments like that .... just speaking from experience ..

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Originally Posted by Zincubus

This is a predominantly American populated forum so I'd probably advise against posting comments like that .... just speaking from experience ..

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Why does geography matter? Because in the U.S. we are more likely to feed live? I personally feed all but two balls pythons (out of around 45) frozen thawed and they take without hesitation. The other two will eventually switch over, I am certain. I agree with the people that have said, switch to frozen thawed. No chance of injury, no chance of internal or external parasites, etc. The benefits are considerable.

Warren

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Originally Posted by Panic2336

Another reason why not to feed live sorry buddy,as for the owner please take it to a vet before it catches an infection. Good luck.

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Originally Posted by Zincubus

This is a predominantly American populated forum so I'd probably advise against posting comments like that .... just speaking from experience ..

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Originally Posted by Warren_Booth

Why does geography matter? Because in the U.S. we are more likely to feed live? I personally feed all but two balls pythons (out of around 45) frozen thawed and they take without hesitation. The other two will eventually switch over, I am certain. I agree with the people that have said, switch to frozen thawed. No chance of injury, no chance of internal or external parasites, etc. The benefits are considerable.

Warren

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i'm not sure about his experience in live feeding, but Zincubus has a lotta emotions tied to anti-live feeding. it's not an American thing to feed live or bash those that don't, but he seems to take it personally. i prefer to feed frozen-thawed myself, but we are dealing with BP's here and they're notoriously picky eaters. i have a few BP's that take live only. I continue to attempt to convert them, but i will feed them live prey with supervision rather than let them shrivel up.

to OP, it looks like it's a scratch or bite on the scale above the eye. Looks like the rat may have gotten the actual eyeball too, which is attempting to scab up. movement from your BP is shifting and loosening the scab. get a vet to check the wound, also look for an infection. Best of luck.

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Originally Posted by Ax01

i'm not sure about his experience in live feeding, but Zincubus has a lotta emotions tied to anti-live feeding. it's not an American thing to feed live or bash those that don't, but he seems to take it personally. i prefer to feed frozen-thawed myself, but we are dealing with BP's here and they're notoriously picky eaters. i have a few BP's that take live only. I continue to attempt to convert them, but i will feed them live prey with supervision rather than let them shrivel up.

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I was simply putting it out there , to save him and anyone else from the hassle I got when expressing my views on the topic .

I'm totally opposed to it and got into trouble at the time . I promised to not antagonise anyone from that moment on and have stuck to that .

It's just not accepted over here in the UK but it seems to more or less the norm in the States from what I can gather . Sure there will be many over there who don't feed live food but at least two of the main mods in here actively promote live feeding unless I'm mistaken ....

I'm just bemused that so many say they HAVE to feed live to some of their Royals as I'm far from being any kind of expert but I've NEVER had any trouble with mine over the last decade or so ...I've got a five Royals at the moment but I've had around 30 in my time .

I do have a couple who will only eat every 10 to 12 days rather than every week though ....


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Too late to edit ...... Actually I did take on a rather miserable / poorly Royal many years ago and it did go on a hunger fast for a few months and then started again after having a soak in a container ( another tabboo subject ) .

Oh and I've never fed anything LIVE to my snakes , couldn't face doing . I feel enough guilt when I feed earthworms to my Axolotl !


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My BP is extremely underweight and will not eat F/T. Should I let her starve to death for the sake of my conscience?

Where do you find time to handle and care for 45 ball pythons? Are you a "breeder"?

I'm not going to touch the live vs F/t.....But I would def get the snake to a vet like has been suggested.

No such thing as "taboo" being that case studies have shown that wild Ball pythons actually do soak themselves...if most "breeders" were required to case study or environmentally invlove themselves, I bet it would greatly weed out those just looking to make $ by flooding an already strained reptile market! I've noticed that there isn't much difference between alot of reptile breeders and puppy mills!!!

Actually, thats part of the consequences of trying to domesticate a wild predator...you can lead a horse to water but it'll drink when its ready!

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Originally Posted by Ratikal

Where do you find time to handle and care for 45 ball pythons? Are you a "breeder"?

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If you are referring to me, I have around 75 snakes in total. Split between Central American Boas, Ball pythons, and Corallus ruschenbergerii. I have actively been keeping and breeding snakes (as a hobbyist) for over 20 years. I don't handle every snake every day, however I interact with the group of animals I maintain on a daily basis, either through feeding, cleaning, watering, etc. I don't feel the need to have to handle each snake on a daily basis.

Warren

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Originally Posted by Ratikal

No such thing as "taboo" being that case studies have shown that wild Ball pythons actually do soak themselves...if most "breeders" were required to case study or environmentally invlove themselves, I bet it would greatly weed out those just looking to make $ by flooding an already strained reptile market! I've noticed that there isn't much difference between alot of reptile breeders and puppy mills!!!

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Interesting points raised here. I am a professor of evolutionary biology and much of my work relates to snakes. I would love to see those studies you refer to regarding wild ball pythons soaking. I have not seen them and when I search through academic literature I don't see anything that discusses soaking behavior in wild snakes. There are notes of wild caught snakes soaking, however that is not necessarily normal as the animal is removed from its natural environment.

Second, you refer to "breeders" being required to case study or environmentally involve themselves. What do you mean by this? Do you mean that a person that breeds a snake must know exact details of that animals natural environment, ecological parameters, behaviors under natural conditions, etc? If so, this is an interesting point as one could argue that captive breed animals are far removed from natural conditions. Hence the reason "captive syndromes" are often discussed.

Finally, because someone may own a lot of animals, does not mean that they neglect those animals, nor does it mean they all feel the need to breed every animal they own. With mine, I might attempt to produce one or two litters of boas a year, or a handful of python clutches. That is far from being a puppy mill.

Warren

:hijackd:


I would definitely get that little guy to a vet as soon as possible. Might be easier said than done this time of year. None of the Reptile First Aid pages I found referred to eye injuries, so unless someone else has experience with them, you might want to just leave it alone. You might also want to remove anything from the enclosure that might scratch or get into the wound. Change the substrate to paper towels, etc.



Good luck and let us know how the vet visit turns out.

Vet is a good choice for an eye injury. Good luck and keep us posted.

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Originally Posted by Zincubus

I was simply putting it out there , to save him and anyone else from the hassle I got when expressing my views on the topic .

I'm totally opposed to it and got into trouble at the time . I promised to not antagonise anyone from that moment on and have stuck to that .

It's just not accepted over here in the UK but it seems to more or less the norm in the States from what I can gather . Sure there will be many over there who don't feed live food but at least two of the main mods in here actively promote live feeding unless I'm mistaken ....

I'm just bemused that so many say they HAVE to feed live to some of their Royals as I'm far from being any kind of expert but I've NEVER had any trouble with mine over the last decade or so ...I've got a five Royals at the moment but I've had around 30 in my time .

I do have a couple who will only eat every 10 to 12 days rather than every week though ....


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I truly appreciate your efforts, Zincubus, in not being antagonistic. I know this subject is near and dear to your heart as you are very passionate about your stance. Personally, I actively promote the right of a keeper to choose. I'm not sure if you consider me part of your "hassle" but when I see a person trying to bully or shame folks into thinking their way is the only/right way, I'll gladly offer some pros for the other side. There are merits for either "argument" but I doubt this particular horse could get any deader.

For the snake....... I am not seeing any damage rodent related. Looks more to me like either a dehydrated or stuck old eye cap.


As far as the "f/t is a safe method" comments, has anyone see what happens when you didn't make their meal correct and it is still partially frozen?

Care for a huge collection of snakes is easy. Ball pythons are not really as hands on type of pet, just because they tolerate it doesnt mean they like it.;)

Care for a huge rodent colony sucks, I don't have time for mine anymore and this is the only reason I am switching to f/t.

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Originally Posted by Calider

My BP is extremely underweight and will not eat F/T. Should I let her starve to death for the sake of my conscience?

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Could it simply be dehydrated ??

Maybe worth putting a photo up and let the real experienced guys see it - just a thought ...

Thank you all for your thoughts, I think I will take him to vet. below is updated picture as of today,

http://tinypic.com/r/zy60qe/9

Vet is a good call. If you don't have one, someone here might be able to make a suggestion or two if you post a location.

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Originally Posted by Yamderk157

Thank you all for your thoughts, I think I will take him to vet. below is updated picture as of today,

http://tinypic.com/r/zy60qe/9

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When you get a moment or two -any chance of a photo of the whole snake from above then the possible dehydration aspect could maybe be confirmed or ruled out ...

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Originally Posted by Zincubus

When you get a moment or two -any chance of a photo of the whole snake from above then the possible dehydration aspect could maybe be confirmed or ruled out ...

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A photo of the other eye would also address that. The pre-feeding does show some signs of dehydration, however eyes are a poor organ to base this on. A picture of the last few inches above the vent often is the tell tale. Also, if you pinch the snakes skin and it does not immediately return to normal, then you have your answer.

Keep is posted and good luck.
Warren

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Originally Posted by PitOnTheProwl

For the snake....... I am not seeing any damage rodent related. Looks more to me like either a dehydrated or stuck old eye cap.


As far as the "f/t is a safe method" comments, has anyone see what happens when you didn't make their meal correct and it is still partially frozen?

Care for a huge collection of snakes is easy. Ball pythons are not really as hands on type of pet, just because they tolerate it doesnt mean they like it.;)

Care for a huge rodent colony sucks, I don't have time for mine anymore and this is the only reason I am switching to f/t.

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Oh my word!! What happens if part is frozen?

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Originally Posted by Yzmasmom

Oh my word!! What happens if part is frozen?

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I can't say for sure , presumable regurgitation ?!?

Why would that ever happen .... It's hardly rocket science to defrost a damn frozen rodent and should never happen . I dare say the chances of it happening are pretty slim and I can't say I've heard of any specific cases ... sounds a little like scaremongering by the LIVE brigade :)

Got to be less of a risk than feeding live as there appear to be threads documenting those risks appearing most days in here .


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At best a regurge.

Zincubus..... No bait right now....SMH

It actually does not look like a retained eye cap, it looks like damage to the living lens.

Take to a REPUTABLE reptile vet. Not a vet who occasionally sees a reptile. An opthalmic antibiotic will most likely be prescribed. In the meantime, remove all bedding and put the animal on paper towels.

If it is a damaged lens I've never seen one successfully healed. I've never seen an animal with a damaged living spectacle not lose the eye. Oftentimes, the next shed can tear the crust off. I've has some success using artificial tears to keep the scab moist when it goes into shed. Once the spectacle lens is removed the cornea becomes extremely susceptible to damage.

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Originally Posted by Yzmasmom

Oh my word!! What happens if part is frozen?

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Well that won't happen because the keeper will make sure it's fully thawed,the whole outside of the rat is warm,see the live feeding is always dodgy because the Royal may not be hungry n royals have a tendency to fast so always have to watch the snake with the rat,I can't n would never feed live cos that reason!


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I actually prefer to feed fresh killed (via CO2) instead of live or frozen thawed. As far as keeping a rat / mouse colony, as soon as I switched up to an ARS rat breeding rack I'd say 90% of the work went away, and it saved me a bunch of time and money. Feeding lab blocks from above keeps the food fresh and available at all times, none to get soiled and throw out. And I water the whole rack with a 5 gallon bucket, just have to top it off with a gallon or so every few days. I use newspaper and shredded paper for bedding so that's free, I change out the bedding and spray down the tubs with disinfectant every three days. I have plenty of rodents for my 20 snakes feeding twice a week, and my reticulated python gets all the big ones that are too big for my ball pythons. I'm very impressed with my ARS rat breeding rack, so much so that I'm tempted to get an additional rat grow out rack as well. With lab blocks and no bedding costs the price per rat is very inexpensive. I actually have some frozen rats in my freezer but have so many live ones I'll probably never use the frozen ones.

I actually started feeding live but I had some close calls with snakes just biting the rodents legs and not getting a good grip and really getting bit by the rodent. I've also seen a few one eyed snakes due to rodent damage. I actually despise feeding frozen thawed, the idea of soaking dead rats in hot water is nasty in my opinion, just can't seem to stomach it very well. And they have a weird smell to them as well. Feeding a fresh killed is the best option in my opinion, just as fresh as feeding live but without the risk to the snake, and no nasty wet fur or risk of partially frozen rodents, or feeding at the wrong temp and making the snake go off of feed or a smell that is 'off'. And at feeding time I have all my rodents immediately available, no need to wait for things to thaw out, CO2 takes less than a minute. May not work for everyone but works well for me.

I put mine to defrost on a spare heatmat for a while ... or even on the boiler if the wife's not around :)

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Originally Posted by PitOnTheProwl

At best a regurge.

Zincubus..... No bait right now....SMH

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As to baiting , again I don't see anything in that last post that could ever be seen as baiting ... I just stated a fact to defend the use of feeding df rodents - everyone can see the threads that I eluded to anyways and I can't recall seeing ANY referring to problems from not defrosting adequately .

Confused sorry

Also I've no idea what SMH means , sorry .

SMH = Shake My Head

I hope the injured snake is helped. That looks painful. If he loses the eye, I hope he's loved anyway. Several of mine are less-than-perfect rescues.

Live vs frozen debate...
This is a matter of personal preference and convienence in my opinion! If people in the UK or Europe are against feeding "live" meals because of whatever reason, my only advice is, don't domesticate natural evolution of a super predator. Get a turtle or some fish...
Personally, how do you know your frozen feed is being processed under sanitary and healthy conditions? A diseased colony will freeze the same as healthy animals!
Yes, there are advantages but there are also disadvantages too...that can be said for both sides! In this case, the snake owner made the #1 mistake of leaving a live "feed" animal alone with his/her pet. Now you can see a major disadvantage to feeding live prey. The snake suffers the most. Since there has been no update, this poor animal is probably being neglected by not getting veterinary attention right away. I treat all my pets like children and would never let my pet go days with a popped eye ball, regardless of what instruction is given by under-educated online advice by other pet owners.
I personally feed "live" stunned rodents and I ALWAYS STAY IN ATTENDANCE UNTIL THE PREY IS INGESTED!!
I will be switching to frozen once I find a reputable supplier in my area that I can trust. Its more convenient and safer for my snakes. By feeding live, I can see whether my snakes are getting "healthy" prey as meals!

I don't see many DVMs or any at all on these forums, so I merely take notice of the experience of others. I can tell you with 15 years of medical experience as a Registered Nurse, I am very careful of giving medical advice to others, especially online! You don't get a sense of enviroment and neglect on message boards or thru the computer screen. In defense of this forum, most moderators seem highly experienced in caring for their snakes. I tend to gain knowledge from that experience of other snake keepers.
My concern is the snake and its kept environment...proper care and responsibility. We all know to well the allure of keeping snakes, and we also are aware of the dangers when the responsibility of caring for a snake is taken lightly. In most cases, the animal suffers. This is what happens when allure of owning such a beautiful creature takes relevance over responsibility.

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Originally Posted by Ratikal

Live vs frozen debate...
This is a matter of personal preference and convienence in my opinion! If people in the UK or Europe are against feeding "live" meals because of whatever reason, my only advice is, don't domesticate natural evolution of a super predator. Get a turtle or some fish...
Personally, how do you know your frozen feed is being processed under sanitary and healthy conditions? A diseased colony will freeze the same as healthy animals!
Yes, there are advantages but there are also disadvantages too...that can be said for both sides! In this case, the snake owner made the #1 mistake of leaving a live "feed" animal alone with his/her pet. Now you can see a major disadvantage to feeding live prey. The snake suffers the most. Since there has been no update, this poor animal is probably being neglected by not getting veterinary attention right away. I treat all my pets like children and would never let my pet go days with a popped eye ball, regardless of what instruction is given by under-educated online advice by other pet owners.
I personally feed "live" stunned rodents and I ALWAYS STAY IN ATTENDANCE UNTIL THE PREY IS INGESTED!!
I will be switching to frozen once I find a reputable supplier in my area that I can trust. Its more convenient and safer for my snakes. By feeding live, I can see whether my snakes are getting "healthy" prey as meals!

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It's the owner's choice to feed live and I keep reading how it's safe if you're ' in attendance ' and watching in case something goes wrong BUT I've also seen many accounts stating how easy it us and that they feed live rats to 30, 40, or more consecutively so how do they closely watch 40+ live feeders ???

I had no idea there was such a huge live vs f/t debate until I discovered this place.

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Originally Posted by cletus

I had no idea there was such a huge live vs f/t debate until I discovered this place.

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Only with people that have never done it.......

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Originally Posted by cletus

I had no idea there was such a huge live vs f/t debate until I discovered this place.

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I hope it isn't all deemed to be my fault as there are many others who feel the same as me . LIVE feeding is just something we don't talk about or even come across here in the UK tbh - as it's frowned upon and simply seen as not acceptable .

I have learnt my lesson now and don't try and force my opinion on others . That aspect aside , this is a marvellous snake forum and one of my favourites with some very knowledgable and helpful people .

You never stop learning after all !


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Originally Posted by Zincubus

I hope it isn't all deemed to be my fault as there are many others who feel the same as me . LIVE feeding is just something we don't talk about or even come across here in the UK tbh - as it's frowned upon and simply seen as not acceptable .

I have learnt my lesson now and don't try and force my opinion on others . That aspect aside , this is a marvellous snake forum and one of my favourites with some very knowledgable and helpful people .

You never stop learning after all !


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Nope. I don't judge. I was just making an observation. If I had the space to breed my own rodents I'd probably be feeding live as I have in the past. I don't, so f/t is convenient for me and my snakes don't mind. How you or anyone else does it really isn't my concern. To each his own I say.

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Originally Posted by Ratikal

Live vs frozen debate...
This is a matter of personal preference and convienence in my opinion! If people in the UK or Europe are against feeding "live" meals because of whatever reason, my only advice is, don't domesticate natural evolution of a super predator. Get a turtle or some fish...
Personally, how do you know your frozen feed is being processed under sanitary and healthy conditions? A diseased colony will freeze the same as healthy animals!
Yes, there are advantages but there are also disadvantages too...that can be said for both sides! In this case, the snake owner made the #1 mistake of leaving a live "feed" animal alone with his/her pet. Now you can see a major disadvantage to feeding live prey. The snake suffers the most. Since there has been no update, this poor animal is probably being neglected by not getting veterinary attention right away. I treat all my pets like children and would never let my pet go days with a popped eye ball, regardless of what instruction is given by under-educated online advice by other pet owners.
I personally feed "live" stunned rodents and I ALWAYS STAY IN ATTENDANCE UNTIL THE PREY IS INGESTED!!
I will be switching to frozen once I find a reputable supplier in my area that I can trust. Its more convenient and safer for my snakes. By feeding live, I can see whether my snakes are getting "healthy" prey as meals!

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Well we have made them pets,we have taken them from there habitat n then we put a live rat in when they r literally in a box so it's like saying a domesticated dog could survive outside,a domesticated snake can't neither cos we have tamed them!ive never heard of any horror story's of defrosted rats causing any problems tbh!anyway each to there own way!


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Actually a domesticated dog can survive being re-introduced to the wild. They will scavenge, breed, re-multiply and survive establishing new packs. A prime example of this are feral cats and feral hogs. Once considered domesticated but are re-evolutionized back to wild traits and habits!
I'm sure if you took a clutch of unhatched Ball Python eggs and replaced them in their correct habitat, a significant portion of the genetically dominant, i.e. "normals" would thrive. Where as, most of the beautiful morphs would be picked off by other predators due to their lack of physical camouflage. Definitely would be an interesting case study. I can say this from 3 years spent in Africa, 95% of all morphs found on the market for sale, are not found in the wild due to "survival of the fittest"!

Yea but there not in there habitat,there in a Viv with a live rat!n they can't get away from a rat unless we intervene!i think u r talking about stray dogs n they would survive on the edges of human rubbish but that's 1st gen,2nd gen from stray would b a feral dog,that may survive on live prey in the wild,as for cats n hogs I never said them,a domesticated dog would not survive in a proper wild environment,catching live prey!anyway I hope this guy takes his snake to the vets!that is wat this forum is about!


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Thats the point and dogs do acclimate back to the wild without human intervention. They will stay close to civilization because they are scavengers by nature, not predators like snakes. I know this because i have seen this personally with dogs surviving in the wild with no human interaction or no civilization around....
I think you need to reference the actual definition of "domestication" before you try to argue an invalid point.
The fact is this person broke the #2 rule of snake leeping, never leave it unattended with live prey!
Fyi..
Hogs and cats can turn feral or wild prior to the 1st gen of wild birth. This is a documented fact that hogs have actually changed appearances and re-grown tusks or fur after being bred in captivity and released or escaping to the wild. I know these things because I have spent more time in the "wild" than most humans.
If you think your snakes are "domesticated", rub their dead prey on your hands and convince them not to strike...
Even bred in captivity, they are thousands of years from being remotely close to "domestication"...thats a scientific fact. Exactly why they are kept in enclosures to simulate wild or natural environments instead of domestically running around your house...game...set...match!

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Originally Posted by Ratikal

Thats the point and dogs do acclimate back to the wild without human intervention. They will stay close to civilization because they are scavengers by nature, not predators like snakes. I know this because i have seen this personally with dogs surviving in the wild with no human interaction or no civilization around....
I think you need to reference the actual definition of "domestication" before you try to argue an invalid point.
The fact is this person broke the #2 rule of snake leeping, never leave it unattended with live prey!
Fyi..
Hogs and cats can turn feral or wild prior to the 1st gen of wild birth. This is a documented fact that hogs have actually changed appearances and re-grown tusks or fur after being bred in captivity and released or escaping to the wild. I know these things because I have spent more time in the "wild" than most humans.
If you think your snakes are "domesticated", rub their dead prey on your hands and convince them not to strike...
Even bred in captivity, they are thousands of years from being remotely close to "domestication"...thats a scientific fact. Exactly why they are kept in enclosures to simulate wild or natural environments instead of domestically running around your house...game...set...match!

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They don't cos the domestic dog needs human waste rubbish to start the 2nd process of being actually wild,u r talking about no human civilisation or human contact so the dog is already wild it hasn't been with humans,domesticated means tame n kept as a pet,I think we all kno that!lol,FYI:i don't kno y u keep referring to hogs n cats wen I never raised that with u,u bought that up urself so I don't kno y u r saying that,u couldn't have a snake slithering round ur house cos it would disappear like many have(escapees) prob die somewhere that's y there in vivs!As for game set match.lol,u still ain't won the argument love!as for your facts there all wrong!dunno wat wild situation u lived in,think it's jus another way of u try a win n argument u can't win!thats y ur lying!


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Folks, this thread is asking for help about an injury. Tempting as it may be to continue with the "great" debate here, I'd hate to see an update or on topic post get lost in the shuffle - this particular discussion has a way of blowing up rather quick. If you would kindly utilize the search function, you can find plenty of live vs f/t threads. Most of the arguments have been hashed out to the point of becoming almost mindlessly repetitive but, if you feel you have something new or enlightening to add, please feel free to bump the appropriate posts.

Here are a couple threads to get you started if that's the direction you'd like to take:
https://ball-pythons.net/forums/show...eally-that-bad
https://ball-pythons.net/forums/show...ous-Wives-tale
https://ball-pythons.net/forums/show...-vs-F-T-debate

I apologize for the running off topic. I just stated my opinion and the basis behind it. It is a bit alarming when someone objects without facts or base just for arguements sake! The sad fact is this injury happened quite some time ago and this poor snake is obviously being neglected...maybe an actual DVM forum for medical advice would be a better option in the future?