Rescue, horrid retained shed? Mites?

Hello everyone, I am new to the forum-- and have signed up in hopes of getting some advise on a perspective rescue. A large pet chain has a young piebald that according to one of the employees, has been deteriorating rapidly for about two months. Very thin, super dehydrated. The store took it to a vet, who said nothing was wrong, so the snake remains on the sales floor in this terrible condition. It looks to me like retained shed? There are also small red dots on the white, any idea about those? I am meeting with the store manager tomorrow to discuss adopting the animal, because obviously they cannot provide proper care. Even a well meaning employee can't give the kind of time it needs while on the clock, am I right?

Anyway, If I end up with him this will be my second BP and first in bad health. I have set up a bin enclosure with heat mat, paper towel, large water dish and moist/dry hide. What is the best way to go about removing the stuck shed? What else can I do to help aid him?

I apologize for the lack of photos, the video was all I could get on short notice. If I am lucky enough to get him, I will update with detailed photos.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zuegeGwjgtE

Poor little guy , definitely suffering. What vet saw this python and said it was ok? You should be applauded for adopting him. I think the bp was featured here by someone else last month but he wasn't in this bad shape. You better take precautions bc this guy most likely has mites along with the severe dehydration. So you need to quarantine this bp asap and make sure you decontaminate yourself. This really should be reported to animal cruelty agency! Make sure you keep him away from your other reptiles and pets! Thanks for intervening on behalf of the animal and giving him a second chance.......:salute:

The stuck shed is the least of his problems as long as his tail tip is clean and there's no ring of it completely encircling his body. Keep his temps correct and his humidity on the high side and he'll likely deal with it himself.

If you don't have PAM or the NIX/RID mite solution then make some and treat his enclosure, paper substrate, and hides the day before you bring him home if you do get him. I'd wipe him down with a white paper towel dampened with either water or Reptile Relief before leaving the store to show the employees whether or not he's got mites.

I'm always torn in these situations. :(

He looks to have a whole body shed retained from the wrinkles. My problem comes in the form of refusing to give people money for snakes like this as they will simply get in another one and repeat the pattern.

Adopting him for free just to give him a chance I could agree with - with the proviso that if you know he has mites then order Provent-a-mite and treat the enclosure before bringing him home and placing him in it.

For removing the shed I would try a damp pillow case.

I would have this poor little guy soaking in a warm bath daily. Will help the shed come off and aid in hydrating him. If you add just a tiny bit of non fragrant dish soap to cut the water tension and help drown off some of those mites. When was the last time he ate?

According to the shop's feeding charts, he ate once earlier this month. I'll have a more detailed look if they agree to adopt him out. Thank you!

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Originally Posted by dr del

My problem comes in the form of refusing to give people money for snakes like this as they will simply get in another one and repeat the pattern.

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Exactly, though the OP said "adopt" which to me means free, or at least so heavily marked down that the store loses money on the transaction. If they want you to pay their full retail price then walk away, you can get a healthy, mite-free pied from a private breeder for a lot less than what the chain stores charge.

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Originally Posted by bcr229

Exactly, though the OP said "adopt" which to me means free, or at least so heavily marked down that the store loses money on the transaction. If they want you to pay their full retail price then walk away, you can get a healthy, mite-free pied from a private breeder for a lot less than what the chain stores charge.

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Yes, by adopt I meant free of charge. Fully agree, I wouldn't pay full price even if I could..

I get so sick of all these sad snakes for sale. I see them on craigslist here and they want 300 dollars for some emaciated filthy snake in a tank with a water dish and one of those half logs. Want to get the money they put into it back. They should be paying us to take the sick snakes off their hands for them.

Some petstore will just take it and throw it in the freezer to be rid of it rather then adopt it out.

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Originally Posted by Kb-

Yes, by adopt I meant free of charge. Fully agree, I wouldn't pay full price even if I could..

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I appreciate that they are considering giving him to you so that he has a chance. That seems very unusual for pet stores in general

Going to speak with the store manager in about twenty minutes. Hope they're able to do what's best for the snake..

Keep us updated. Good luck :gj:

Update??

Im interested as well. Crossing my fingers for this little guy.

Greg

Yesterday I spoke with the store manager, who didn't even know which snake I was talking about at first.. Until he saw it, and was like, 'oh.' In regards to my offering to adopt it, he stated that because it had been to a 'qualified vet' who said that I quote, "this type of snake is inherently unhealthy" (referring to the piebald trait I assume? Ugh.) it could not be adopted out. However, he said that it would be taken again and that I should call back. So, I called again this morning. He said that it should have a vet appointment today or tomorrow and they were trying to get it to shed (which terrifies me). He did express that he would like it to go to someone who could take proper care of it if possible, but because of needing permission from a vet and higher authority (because of the 500$ price tag) I should call back again on Thursday.

I'm honestly not sure what to expect at this point.. But I worry more damage than help could be done in the next few days if they try to make him still sellable. Or if the vet won't clear him for adoption. :(

In any case though, I did file a report to their corporate branch about his gross neglect for the last two months.

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Originally Posted by Kb-

Yesterday I spoke with the store manager, who didn't even know which snake I was talking about at first.. Until he saw it, and was like, 'oh.' In regards to my offering to adopt it, he stated that because it had been to a 'qualified vet' who said that I quote, "this type of snake is inherently unhealthy" (referring to the piebald trait I assume? Ugh.) it could not be adopted out. However, he said that it would be taken again and that I should call back. So, I called again this morning. He said that it should have a vet appointment today or tomorrow and they were trying to get it to shed (which terrifies me). He did express that he would like it to go to someone who could take proper care of it if possible, but because of needing permission from a vet and higher authority (because of the 500$ price tag) I should call back again on Thursday.

I'm honestly not sure what to expect at this point.. But I worry more damage than help could be done in the next few days if they try to make him still sellable. Or if the vet won't clear him for adoption. :(

In any case though, I did file a report to their corporate branch about his gross neglect for the last two months.

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By any chance is this a PetSmart? If so you can also contact the local animal control. They have to get quartlerly inspections in order to keep the license to sell animals valid. All animals must be in good care/health/clean environment. Chances are they are not due for the inspection or already had it. Could help your case a bit. Filing with corproate doesn't usually amount to much because in the end all of the animals are just numbers and price tags to them. Good luck with everything. This little guy really needs you.

He is from Petsmart, yes. Unfortunately that is how the system works.. I'll check into that, but for now it's just a waiting game. Calling back first thing tomorrow, fingers crossed they've made a decision by then.

You can also think about reaching out to local animal shelters for help. In Denver our major animal shelter has a volunteer task force of animal welfare officers that can get the ball rolling. See if you can find an organization like that to aid you. Often a phone call from a regulatory body will put a boot in the ass of management and help the animal.

Is it wrong of me to feel ill because some breeder wholesaled a pied (or more likely a group of pieds) at around $100 each to PetSmart knowing full well that they'd end up in awful conditions, when there are a ton of private buyers or even mom-and-pop shops who would happily pay double that for a healthy baby, and who would keep it correctly?

And yes I understand the whole retail/wholesale business model, heck I participate in it as a gun dealer, and I've sold some of my babies to a local exotic store, BUT I see how their snakes are kept with correct heat and humidity in proper reptile enclosures, and every single one is healthy, mite-free, etc. Their prices aren't any higher than PetSmart's either.

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Originally Posted by bcr229

Is it wrong of me to feel ill because some breeder wholesaled a pied (or more likely a group of pieds) at around $100 each to PetSmart knowing full well that they'd end up in awful conditions, when there are a ton of private buyers or even mom-and-pop shops who would happily pay double that for a healthy baby, and who would keep it correctly?

And yes I understand the whole retail/wholesale business model, heck I participate in it as a gun dealer, and I've sold some of my babies to a local exotic store, BUT I see how their snakes are kept with correct heat and humidity in proper reptile enclosures, and every single one is healthy, mite-free, etc. Their prices aren't any higher than PetSmart's either.

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Not at all, I feel the same way. Seeing a magnificent animal like that in such miserable conditions absolutely struck a nerve. How could they say that nothing is wrong? And furthermore, it almost doesn't even matter because of his pricetag. I can guarantee you that if this were a normal ball that I had asked to adopt, they would have granted without much fuss. But because it's a 500$ pied, the whole game changes.

So im assuming the whole point of this is to allow you to adopt the snake to care for it? My cousin is an attorney, and has worked on some animal abuse cases. Im sure he would be more than willing to call PetsMart and convince management to let you adopt him.

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Originally Posted by JoshSloane

So im assuming the whole point of this is to allow you to adopt the snake to care for it? My cousin is an attorney, and has worked on some animal abuse cases. Im sure he would be more than willing to call PetsMart and convince management to let you adopt him.

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Yeah, I am trying to get them to adopt the snake out to me. The issue is company policy on adoption, along with his pricetag is making it difficult. When I spoke to the store manager yesterday, he sounded as if he himself was more than willing to adopt it-- but he had to get higher approval on account of the price, as well as a vet recommendation. Hoops to go through.

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Originally Posted by Kb-

Yeah, I am trying to get them to adopt the snake out to me. The issue is company policy on adoption, along with his pricetag is making it difficult. When I spoke to the store manager yesterday, he sounded as if he himself was more than willing to adopt it-- but he had to get higher approval on account of the price, as well as a vet recommendation. Hoops to go through.

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Why not, as the manager of the damn store, just take better care of the animal? Im sure he went online and saw the price tags associated with this gene and instantly thought to himself that he could turn it for a profit. This entire story makes me very sad for the nature of people and how money drives almost every action a person takes.

Wish you the best OP, keep us updated.

Greg

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Originally Posted by EasiGregory

Why not, as the manager of the damn store, just take better care of the animal? Im sure he went online and saw the price tags associated with this gene and instantly thought to himself that he could turn it for a profit. This entire story makes me very sad for the nature of people and how money drives almost every action a person takes.

Wish you the best OP, keep us updated.

Greg

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Unfortunately, the store mangers really have very little contact with the animals. It's the petcare manger that's really to blame, but they have no power to grant an adoption of this price. What I'm afraid of now, is that they're going to try and treat it themselves. I explained that at this point it really is out of their capability, which the manger admitted; 'since we only have our hands on an animal maybe twice a day' he said, or something like that. I know that he is going to require intense care for a while if he's going to pull through, that I am more than willing to give if only they'd let me.

Another thing is, they take their animals to a Banfeild vet located in every store. It's convenient, but most of their staff aren't trained in reptiles. Obviously since this vet said that nothing was wrong the first time, I also fear they might prescribe some guessed treatment before admitting it as adoptable..

A few months back I encountered a similar situation at Petco, but this snake was much worse. When I first walked by the enclosure, I thought it was dead. But then I saw it writhe and twist, trying to correct the position of its head and I nearly blew a gasket. After an angry talk between the employee who took it out for me to hold, the manager was called. He was fully aware of the condition, saying that it just wouldn't eat. But why the *** was it still on the sales floor, being squashed by four other pythons?! I pretty much knew it would die at this point, but he agreed to adopt it anyway-- then he sprung a 25$ nonrefundable pricetag at the register when she was already boxed! I could hardly say no at that point, so I spat up the money and left.. She died later that night, but at least she was warm and as comfortable as I could make her.

I refuse to let this pied die like that if there's anything I can do to get it out of there.

Photos of the pastel at Petco, who passed shortly after. (Sorry the pictures are large)

http://i57.tinypic.com/2r5c8s3.jpg

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http://i62.tinypic.com/295tnuq.jpg

This is exactly why my reptile keeping and breeding will always be a hobby and not a business. A business, especially a big box store, won't write off that pied until it becomes a liability - meaning, the cost to keep it, treat it, and sell it is greater than its sale price. As a hobbyist if I choose to spend $500 at the vet to treat a $50 snake that's my business and no one else's, I'll eat the loss. If this were a normal ball python the OP would have it in hand already, and the store would just pay five bucks for a replacement.

Having the bean counters drive policies to maximize profit is fine if you're talking about inanimate objects, not so much for critters. Sadly until the big box stores take enough losses on animals that they're forced to either keep them correctly or stop carrying them, or animal control actually gets a clue and starts seizing reptiles and nailing the stores for neglect, which will not only cost them money but customers due to the bad PR, nothing will change.

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Originally Posted by bcr229

This is exactly why my reptile keeping and breeding will always be a hobby and not a business. A business, especially a big box store, won't write off that pied until it becomes a liability - meaning, the cost to keep it, treat it, and sell it is greater than its sale price. As a hobbyist if I choose to spend $500 at the vet to treat a $50 snake that's my business and no one else's, I'll eat the loss. If this were a normal ball python the OP would have it in hand already, and the store would just pay five bucks for a replacement.

Having the bean counters drive policies to maximize profit is fine if you're talking about inanimate objects, not so much for critters. Sadly until the big box stores take enough losses on animals that they're forced to either keep them correctly or stop carrying them, or animal control actually gets a clue and starts seizing reptiles and nailing the stores for neglect, which will not only cost them money but customers due to the bad PR, nothing will change.

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Completely agree.

As an update on the Pied, called again this morning-- Store manager wanted to talk to his Petcare manager then call me back. Hoping to hear from him soon..

Here's to hoping the store does the "right" thing and adopts the poor baby out to you.. so sad..

My local Petco struck a deal with a breeder and has a bunch of morphs, but fortunately in this situation the manager used to manage a reptile shop and keeps them in far better conditions. She gave me 50% off my new (healthy) leucistic which makes sense for the store because they don't have to take care of it and wait for someone else to pay full price. I had the option of half off any of the morphs, pied included, but despite that being a more "desirable" morph I fell in love with the Lucy. The pieds sold out within the next couple of days, which this Petsmart was likely hoping for.

I think in these situations where there is a more expensive kind of snake the store wants to turn it and make a profit but ends up keeping it for longer because not as many people will pay that price right away so you see the deterioration that would happen to ALL of them if they were kept for a longer period of time. The store probably thinks you are just trying to get an expensive snake for free so it might be tactful in this case to offer them "something" for it, maybe offer to buy it at cost so they can just replace it (so it makes sense in their minds). The current snake could potentially cost them more in the long run as it needs medical attention so they could basically start over with a fresh healthy one. Not that I want them to but it might help you jump through those hoops.

I don't want the store to get spooked and just move it to the back and claim it sold when they're just hiding it so time is of the essence. There might be some arrangement that makes you look less like someone trying to take advantage but you might be the best judge of the situation.

As far as care, my baby from Petco retained all but its head the first time it shed so I had to soak him and help him shed, basically gently pulling the skin all the way around (thumb and index finger encircling the body - pardon the analogy but kind of like a condom :oops:). The soaking also helps if there is any sort of impaction making the snake uncomfortable and not wanting to eat and the warmth feels good.

Update?

Yeah, it is highly unfortunate that the one in awful shape just so happens to be a 500$ animal.. Wouldn't have been my first choice to pick a fight about, but regardless.

Sadly not much to update, called yesterday at 10 am. He wanted to talk to his petcare manager and call me back. Nothing yet, hoping to hear from him today.

What if you offer to take it for $250 or something? I want to save the baby pied. Is it in California by any chance? I'd pay $400 just to save the little guy.


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I wouldn't spend that kind of money on something that is potentially diseased and under weight while also running a risk of infecting my own snakes with mites. I know we want to have a quarantine section but thats to protect from unknowingly bringing on problems. To knowingly bring in God knows what it better be free or at least under 50 bucks.

I wouldn't do it either. Aside from the fact that it's a lot of money for animal with plenty of known issues that could affect your current collection, purchasing it just encourages that store to bring another high value snake to sell. As long as people keep buying these animals, stores will keep selling them.

I know people want to save them, but buying this one to save it, just means more will be brought in and end up being mistreated.

I think you might be better off simply trying to educate the store on proper maintenance and housing. At least then this snake will have a slightly improved life, and any that come after it have a chance at a better setup.

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Originally Posted by amozo

I'd pay $400 just to save the little guy.

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I wouldn't. Healthy males pieds from reputable breeders are going for less than that. The store won't change its policies or husbandry practices until it loses money on the animals. If it makes a profit by keeping the animals sick or in bad conditions because people who feel sorry for them buy them, it will simply buy more and the cycle will continue.

I might be judged for saying this, but I'm a big angry guy when it comes to ignorance and neglect, I would have asked to hold the animal, and when they hand it to me and turned there back, I'm out the door middle finger raised, baby pied in-hand.
But thats my irrational response to the situation...

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Originally Posted by BigJay

I might be judged for saying this, but I'm a big angry guy when it comes to ignorance and neglect, I would have asked to hold the animal, and when they hand it to me and turned there back, I'm out the door middle finger raised, baby pied in-hand.
But thats my irrational response to the situation...

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While I understand the sentiment, getting charged with theft won't help the snake - or you.

Yeah, I guess everyone is right that if I did pay good money for it, it would only encourage these stores to continue this bad practice. I just want to save the little guy from that miserable store. I hate going into the chain pet stores, they have such malnourished and sad looking animals. No hides, no water and lights bright all day. It breaks my heart, but you can't save them all.

Exactly why is was my irrational response lol, my actual rational response would be to report this store, and verbally rip the manager, pet care taker, or whoever else is working, a new one. And you best believe I would be at that store every day raising hell untill they learned how to take care of the animals and untill i saw improvment.

Random, but in my old hometown a homeless man kept a puppy tied to a tree behind a WalMart for God knows how long. I witnessed the dog had no water bowl or food bowl. Every day I passed this poor dog tied up, deteriorating, I gave him 3 days for at least something. But never even saw the homeless man. So I went over and I untied it from the tree, left a note with my phone# and 20$. Note said if he used the 20$ for dog food or anything dog supply related I would let him get the dog back. Well someone "recieved" the note because it was gone the next day, ( I put a rock on the envelope where his "camp" was) Never recieved any contact. The pup is now almost 4 years old and has a wonderful life.

In Summary, I have NO problem being the a**hole to do the right thing!

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Originally Posted by amozo

Yeah, I guess everyone is right that if I did pay good money for it, it would only encourage these stores to continue this bad practice. I just want to save the little guy from that miserable store. I hate going into the chain pet stores, they have such malnourished and sad looking animals. No hides, no water and lights bright all day. It breaks my heart, but you can't save them all.

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A lot of big chain stores get bad reps and deservedly. But not all of them are as bad as the situation you are in. I know it may not seem like it will make a difference but contacting the headquarters and letting them know what's going on can make a difference. Now would they brush off you complaining about a dead goldfish or something yeah. A dead anole (they are all wild caught and one not making it surprises no one) yeah. But if you tell them one of their high priced animals that is captive bred, that they have now wasted vet money on, probably won't sell they will listen and respond with corrective action, hopefully in the form of training.

Why not try to work out a deal where you can assist them with their set up and maintnance of the snakes as well as educating the employees in the same in return they maybe provide you some store credit for supplys needed for the care of your animals. I have a friend that did this to help the animals and himself and the pet store all at the same time. Working something like this out you can care for the current animal without the company looking at you as a person that wants something for free, while at the same time educating the employees on the proper care of the snakes to ensure that they do not end up like this again.

Hey OP-Im directly offering you help with this situation. We work with animal rights groups across the country, and would gladly make a phone call on your behalf. We aren't looking to get anyone in trouble, often times all it takes is one convincing phone call to encourage management to adopt out the animal, or sell it at cost. I would just need the name and phone number of the manager that you are dealing with. We have dealt with issues like this in the past with nationally branded pet stores. Its worth a try. Usually a mild threat of legal action is enough to set things in motion. Let me know if you want help.

UPDATE-- Piebald has been adopted to me!

Thank you everyone offering to help, luckily they reached a decision and the snake was adopted to me free of charge. As I feared though, they did try and de-shed him themselves-- leaving behind what looks almost like a burn(?) or what their vet said (hours before I adopted it) was bruising from pulling off the shed. It's very red, and I see at least one bubble/blister. Is there anything I can do to treat this, or will it heal on its own? I'm not sure what the cause was if it is a burn, as they don't use heat pads or rocks. Also I see no signs of mites, thank goodness.

Aside from that, it's a curious little bugger-- checking out his new tub, clean and furnished with paper towels, hide, and water bowl. I think with a few good meals and some TLC, it'll heal up just fine.

http://i62.tinypic.com/dw6t2.jpg

http://i57.tinypic.com/18ywlt.jpg

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Good news for the snake finally then. :)

I would monitor it for changes over the next couple of days to see how the colour/ swelling changes. If it changes a lot then pop up another pic. :gj:

Congratulations!

If it's an open wound Vetericyn is a water-based antimicrobial gel available at pet stores like Petco or online.

Silver sulfadiazine is another option, normally it's prescription only but it can be bought online at http://www.mountainside-medical.com/.

Awwwwwww yay!!! Not good how they forced a shed, but he does look so much better! He's a downright gorgeous little fellow, albeit in need of food and love and care. :gj::gj::gj: Good on you

Now the real challenge begins.

Wow! I've been following this post and hoping for the best in this situation. I've experienced this first hand with Petco. My pastel from Petco didn't make it more than 48 hours, but I'm now working on a small normal. He was not eating at the store and his weight was diminishing. Luckily he is now gaining a little weight and doing well.

The pied you adopted is beautiful. Hopefully with some proper care and a little love, your little guy will be back to 100% in no time. Please keep us posted with photos of his progress!

Here's a photo of my little one from Petco that I'm nursing back to health slowly, but surely!
http://i58.tinypic.com/2lwkj77.jpg

I've been following this for a while, and I'm so happy that they made the right decision! I got so excited I wound up scaring my cat.