The Live vs F/T debate

I really don't get this LIVE feeding malarkey . I've kept loads of snakes from Garters to Burms and I've never had to resort to feeding LIVE.
Even the fussiest Royal Python will eat warmed up d/f when they're ready . I currently have a matching , non related pair of Albino Royals who will only eat if it's warmed up and dangled in front of their face .. It sometimes takes three or four attempts but so what - just put the time and effort in and don't take the easy route of feeding LIVE . It's cruel to the rodents and risky for your snakes !!

I read a post the other day where this woman said she hated feeding live due to the harrowing sound of the rat pup crying in pain for 25 minutes whilst it was slowly eaten alive !!!
She said it sounded like a crying baby !!!

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Originally Posted by Zincubus

I really don't get this LIVE feeding malarkey . I've kept loads of snakes from Garters to Burms and I've never had to resort to feeding LIVE.
Even the fussiest Royal Python will eat warmed up d/f when they're ready . I currently have a matching , non related pair of Albino Royals who will only eat if it's warmed up and dangled in front of their face .. It sometimes takes three or four attempts but so what - just put the time and effort in and don't take the easy route of feeding LIVE . It's cruel to the rodents and risky for your snakes !!

I read a post the other day where this woman said she hated feeding live due to the harrowing sound of the rat pup crying in pain for 25 minutes whilst it was slowly eaten alive !!!
She said it sounded like a crying baby !!!

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Feeding live is not particularly cruel or dangerous. Contrary to your expert experience, not every snake will simply eat what you want them to when they're ready. If they would, we'd have plenty of hippy dippy folks feeding their snakes tofu nuggets every week.

There's nothing wrong with feeding live. It's a good way to try to kickstart a snake that isn't eating.

If you aren't sure what size to get, get the adult mouse.

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Originally Posted by kitedemon

Live should be a last resort. I have yet to meet a Royal that cannot be converted to F/T and I have seen a few F/T eaters that refuse to deal with a live rat. (I have rescued out close to a 1000 royals now) and every now and again one comes back because it will not eat. In the three cases now the F/T eater was offered live and refused it. The three cases all ate with no problems once back in the facility and offered F/T again.

My point is Royals often imprint on food. An adult mouser has to be struggled with to convert it to rats and often will revert back to mice given a chance.

I would offer what you have always offered not try something new. A regularly eating snake often will not eat new things. Routine is a trait of these animals.

There is a caveat here, if the you know the snake was started on mice a mouse scented rat may help, if that fails a mouse may work but you might get stuck feeding mice and mousers often are under weight because it just isn't big enough when they are still in a growth spirt, they will fill out sooner or later but IMO it is a poor food for a growing snake and a inappropriate food for an adult.

Live feeders often can be a pain to switch, it isn't a huge problem feeding live as long as it is supervised, but that takes time an extra 10 or 15 min per snake and if you care for any number that is potentially a lot of time. It is such a fluke for a snake to be injured by dead prey it is almost funny. It however is not uncommon for a snake to be hurt by a rodent defending its life.

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At last a voice of reason and sensibility !

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Originally Posted by John1982

Feeding live is not particularly cruel or dangerous. Contrary to your expert experience, not every snake will simply eat what you want them to when they're ready. If they would, we'd have plenty of hippy dippy folks feeding their snakes tofu nuggets every week.

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I have never EVER claimed to be an expert on anything .. I do have 17 snakes currently and I've owned over 70 over the years and I've NEVER had lower myself to feeding LIVE !

I currently have Corns , Kings , Garter snakes , a Dwarf Hypo Burmese python , three Royal pythons , A Rhino Ratsnake , a Bamboo Red Mountain Kingsnake and a 7' adult Snow Boa ( bred by John Berry ) .
Never lost a snake or have ANY die ...

Guess I'm doing something right !

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Originally Posted by Zincubus

At last a voice of reason and sensibility !

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There is nothing unreasonable or insensible about feeding live.

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Originally Posted by 200xth

There is nothing unreasonable or insensible about feeding live.

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I rather think that the slowly dying rat pup crying like a baby for 25 minutes easily disproves that train of thought ....

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Originally Posted by Zincubus

I rather think that the slowly dying rat pup crying like a baby for 25 minutes easily disproves that train of thought ....

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Well that just shows you're lack of experience and ignorance when it comes to live feeding :gj:

Funny how people feeding live (and I mean experienced in doing so not just one live prey a month) are a lot more open minded when it come to f/t and wouldn't use words such as never or lower themselves to....

As for the OP if you do feed live make sure you are prepared to do so for a while if your snake does not switch back.

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Originally Posted by Zincubus

I rather think that the slowly dying rat pup crying like a baby for 25 minutes easily disproves that train of thought ....

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You can think whatever you want, there is nothing unreasonable or lacking sense in live feeding.

No one cares that you feed frozen, but quit trying to act like you're some sort of morally superior person because of it. Not a single thing you feed your snake was not alive at one point, yet you act like you're somehow so much better than anyone else.

I am fairly new to the game but I picked up a 2 year old that was always fed live since it hatched. To make sure that he transition well and kept eating I still feed him live like he's used to. I do it with caution and the proper tools(pencil and tongs) in case I have to get in there and rescue my snake. I think that as long as you are careful and respectful of the prey there is nothing morally wrong in feeding live. I have never seen or heard of a feeder crying for 25 min from any of my herp friends who have been keeping snakes for may years. Its usually a quick squeak and its over there is no more air in its lungs and it cant inhale to "cry" because its being constricted. I am also a hunter who has a problem with people who are upset by it saying its wrong to kill an animal wile they eat a burger or steak, cows don't grow on trees. One animal must die in order for another to live, those have been the rules of the game since the beginning of time.

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Originally Posted by 200xth

You can think whatever you want, there is nothing unreasonable or lacking sense in live feeding.

No one cares that you feed frozen, but quit trying to act like you're some sort of morally superior person because of it. Not a single thing you feed your snake was not alive at one point, yet you act like you're somehow so much better than anyone else.

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It's not about being superior at all tbh. It's probably a culture thing ... Over here in the UK it's just not accepted by I think around 500,000 snake keepers .... I appreciate that over in the states it's regarded as common place but that doesn't make it right or indeed acceptable ..

500,000 hu? Wow.......well as you said, just because its common place doesn't make it right.....Or me wrong we are just different. Its probably a cultural thing.:salute:

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Originally Posted by 200xth

There is nothing unreasonable or insensible about feeding live.

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Nope. i feed live and don't have an issue at all.

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Originally Posted by Zincubus

It's not about being superior at all tbh. It's probably a culture thing ... Over here in the UK it's just not accepted by I think around 500,000 snake keepers .... I appreciate that over in the states it's regarded as common place but that doesn't make it right or indeed acceptable ..

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Yea. Not trying to sound superior at all, except all you people are doing something wrong and unacceptable. Do you even listen to yourself?

It's perfectly right and it's perfectly acceptable.

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Originally Posted by 200xth

Yea. Not trying to sound superior at all, except all you people are doing something wrong and unacceptable. Do you even listen to yourself?

It's perfectly right and it's perfectly acceptable.

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In the wild the mice / rats have a chance to escape and also there's no risk to the snake as the prey is NOT cornered , fighting for their dear lives .......

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Originally Posted by Zincubus

In the wild the mice / rats have a chance to escape and also there's no risk to the snake as the prey is NOT cornered , fighting for their dear lives .......

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What sort of chance to escape did the food you use have when it was killed by the people who kill your snake's food for you?

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Originally Posted by Zincubus

I've never had to resort to feeding LIVE.

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So, I'm just curious what sort of experience you are speaking from regarding the actual, real life dangers of this practice, and not the whipped up, false hysteria that's posted on various sites by people who have never even done it?

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Originally Posted by Zincubus

I have never EVER claimed to be an expert on anything .. I do have 17 snakes currently and I've owned over 70 over the years and I've NEVER had lower myself to feeding LIVE !

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"lower myself"? are you serious right now? :confusd:

you think snakes order take-out in the wild?

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Originally Posted by 200xth

What sort of chance to escape did the food you use have when it was killed by the people who kill your snake's food for you?



So, I'm just curious what sort of experience you are speaking from regarding the actual, real life dangers of this practice, and not the whipped up, false hysteria that's posted on various sites by people who have never even done it?

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I've never been to the moon but I'm certain it's a good distance away ..

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Originally Posted by se7en

confusd:

you think snakes order take-out in the wild?

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I honestly have you idea where you're going with this ..

Who mentioned take- aways ?? :)

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Originally Posted by Zincubus

I honestly have you idea where you're going with this ..

Who mentioned take- aways ?? :)

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https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...2/ernie001.png

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Originally Posted by Zincubus

I rather think that the slowly dying rat pup crying like a baby for 25 minutes easily disproves that train of thought ....

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You like mentioning that 25 minute mess as though it's a mark against all keepers who feed live. It's not really a common scenario. There are several things the lady could have done to remedy the situation with a quickness. If the 25 minutes isn't an exaggeration, which I highly doubt, I can almost guarantee she was the cause of the extended feed time.

I'm not a fan of snakes eating live prey before killing it either. All she had to do was grab the rat pup and jiggle it around a bit to get the snake to constrict. That failing, a little pinch on the snake to simulate a threat would surely have done the trick. Heck, she could have just thumped the pups head with her index finger for an instant kill.

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Originally Posted by Zincubus

In the wild the mice / rats have a chance to escape and also there's no risk to the snake as the prey is NOT cornered , fighting for their dear lives .......

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This made me chuckle. Where do you think snakes encounter their prey in the wild? What do you think happens when a snake strikes true on a prey item in nature? I've found my fair share of scarred up snakes and I'm pretty sure people aren't catching them and dropping them in buckets with rodents.

The thing about snakes is they have no limbs. Give them 6 walls from which to gain leverage and they instantly have more control over the situation. I reckon there is even less chance of injury to a captive snake when offering live than your wild snakes that pounce on rodents when they just happen to cross paths while frolicking in fields.

Speaking of dear lives. You should keep some rodents and set a nanny cam on the rearing females. There is more infanticide than you probably think and they gruesomely eat them alive. In many species of mammals when a new male takes over a territory he instantly kills all nursing young simply to bring the females back into heat sooner. I'm just thinking, there are plenty more acceptable candidates for your lectures on unacceptability.

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Originally Posted by John1982

Speaking of dear lives. You should keep some rodents and set a nanny cam on the rearing females. There is more infanticide than you probably think and they gruesomely eat them alive.

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a few weeks ago, i ended up with several extra adults rats (i always feed live btw) due to my larger snakes not wanting to eat. i put the rats in an empty tub, and supplied them with food and water. when i came home from work the next day, one of the rats had stripped another rat's face down to the bare skull. :chew:


rats are disgusting creatures.

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Originally Posted by se7en

a few weeks ago, i ended up with several extra adults rats (i always feed live btw) due to my larger snakes not wanting to eat. i put the rats in an empty tub, and supplied them with food and water. when i came home from work the next day, one of the rats had stripped another rat's face down to the bare skull. :chew:


rats are disgusting creatures.

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That's such a strange scenario though ... I'd guess you'd find similar results with many different types of creatures . Confined space / terrified desperate animals ... you've heard the term ' dog eat dog ' surely so labelling rats as disgusting is debatable .

i don't think the rats were terrified and/or desperate

and rats being disgusting is not debatable

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Originally Posted by John1982

.

I've found my fair share of scarred up snakes and I'm pretty sure people aren't catching them and dropping them in buckets with rodents.
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Well the Internet is full of snakes injured / scarred / even killed by rodents fighting to stay alive when cornered in vivs plus you've confirmed that even in the wild many snakes are hurt and scarred ( probably losing an eye ) when they've ambushed a rodent .

So WHY on earth would you risk the health of your precious ( even expensive ) snakes when they are more than happy enough to eat a defrosted rodent ??? There are documented cases where snakes have stumbled across old decaying mammals and happily devoured them . There is no way I'd risk mine ... the adult Snow Boa I've shown off in other threads in here cost well over a $1,000 and he's a good looking boy .... I'm simply ensuring that he's staying that way :)

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Originally Posted by Zincubus

Well the Internet is full of snakes injured / scarred / even killed by rodents fighting to stay alive

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Again, you have zero actual experience and are trying to create fear about something you know zero about.

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Originally Posted by se7en

i don't think the rats were terrified and/or desperate

and rats being disgusting is not debatable

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Sure it is. Rats are very intelligent animals with complex social structures. When housed and cared for according to their needs they develop complex hierarchies among one another, which generally results in a peaceful living situation and happy, well-adjusted rats. Shove a bunch of unacquainted animals together in a cramped, unfamiliar environment and there's going to be problems, regardless of species. Nobody would put a bunch of strange, unsocialized dogs in a little room together unsupervised and expect them to get along swimmingly.

I always find it a little strange when people have a deep appreciation for one (also very commonly misunderstood) animal but call another disgusting because of its nature.

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Originally Posted by Zincubus

So WHY on earth would you risk the health of your precious ( even expensive ) snakes when they are more than happy enough to eat a defrosted rodent ???

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Because they often aren't 'happy enough to eat a defrosted rodent'. Has it ever occurred to you that in a country where it is borderline illegal (correct me if I'm wrong, but that is the immpression I've gotten from other keepers) and widely not accepted to feed live that the babies that don't eat live never make it into the hands of hobbyists? They likely die in petstores and at the breeders' and are considered failure-to-thrive because they are never sold as no one wants or would take an animal that doesn't eat f/t in that environment. In short, it's not astonishing that you've never purchased a snake that will not eat f/t; if you can find large petstores or breeders that have never had a ftt because of food then I will be impressed.

Please stop acting like people who feed live are horrible, lazy people who don't care about their snakes or the feeders. I have been keeping reptiles over a dozen years and in that time have had ONE snake that will not take f/t or prekilled. She was put up for adoption for not eating at a chain petstore bc she wouldn't eat f/t and they were not allowed to feed live there. I tried all the tricks for months until she started dropping a dangerous amount of weight before feeding live. I hate feeding live as it is inconvenient to me and I don't enjoy watching the mice die, and have tried many times to switch her to f/t but with no luck. Would you recommend I let my snake starve herself to an unhealthy weight just so I can TRY and get her on a food item she has never been willing to take, and nearly died refusing?

btw, if you are not vegan (and I do mean vegan, not vegetarian) you have no right to complain about the 'cruelty' of feeding live. If you're personally eating something that suffered far more than the mice that I feed to my snake, it's highly hypocritical of you to accuse me of animal cruelty for doing what I have to do to keep my pet healthy.
Just to be very clear, I have no problem with eating meat. I do it myself. Just using that example to make a point.

It almost amazes that there are still feeding live debates today. Maybe this argument will never die....

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Originally Posted by Snake Judy

Sure it is. Rats are very intelligent animals with complex social structures. When housed and cared for according to their needs they develop complex hierarchies among one another, which generally results in a peaceful living situation and happy, well-adjusted rats. Shove a bunch of unacquainted animals together in a cramped, unfamiliar environment and there's going to be problems, regardless of species. Nobody would put a bunch of strange, unsocialized dogs in a little room together unsupervised and expect them to get along swimmingly.

I always find it a little strange when people have a deep appreciation for one (also very commonly misunderstood) animal but call another disgusting because of its nature.

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rats defecate and urinate at an astonishing rate.

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Originally Posted by 200xth

Again, you have zero actual experience and are trying to create fear about something you know zero about.

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Your mate has just confirmed that he's come across many a scarred snake in the wild .. is he making things up as well ??

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Originally Posted by se7en

rats defecate and urinate at an astonishing rate.

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So do most mammals - humans included :)

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Originally Posted by Zincubus

Your mate has just confirmed that he's come across many a scarred snake in the wild .. is he making things up as well ??

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I assume he didn't recommend catching wild rats that are starving, dehydrated, disease ridden, filled with parasites, completely stressed out, defensive, and feeding them to captive snakes.

Because I don't recommend that either.

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Originally Posted by Zincubus

Well the Internet is full of snakes injured / scarred / even killed by rodents fighting to stay alive when cornered in vivs plus you've confirmed that even in the wild many snakes are hurt and scarred ( probably losing an eye ) when they've ambushed a rodent .

So WHY on earth would you risk the health of your precious ( even expensive ) snakes when they are more than happy enough to eat a defrosted rodent ??? There are documented cases where snakes have stumbled across old decaying mammals and happily devoured them . There is no way I'd risk mine ... the adult Snow Boa I've shown off in other threads in here cost well over a $1,000 and he's a good looking boy .... I'm simply ensuring that he's staying that way :)

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The internet is full of idiots and trolls who love taking things out of context. I'm leaning you towards troll with the way you ignore most of a comment and just use the bits that suit your agenda. Google drowning. I think for your own safety you should refrain from swimming, showering, bathing and even drinking. Water is a highly documented killer after all and I would hate to see you fall victim to the monstrosity.

It's hilarious how you go from the "save the screaming baby rodents" moral stance to "simply ensuring the pristine state of my snake". Grasp at straws much?

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Originally Posted by Zincubus

Your mate has just confirmed that he's come across many a scarred snake in the wild .. is he making things up as well ??

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If only you would read the whole post and apply that big brain of yours..

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Originally Posted by Zincubus

Well the Internet is full of snakes injured / scarred / even killed by rodents fighting to stay alive when cornered in vivs plus you've confirmed that even in the wild many snakes are hurt and scarred ( probably losing an eye ) when they've ambushed a rodent .

So WHY on earth would you risk the health of your precious ( even expensive ) snakes when they are more than happy enough to eat a defrosted rodent ??? There are documented cases where snakes have stumbled across old decaying mammals and happily devoured them . There is no way I'd risk mine ... the adult Snow Boa I've shown off in other threads in here cost well over a $1,000 and he's a good looking boy .... I'm simply ensuring that he's staying that way :)

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I was wondering when you would bring this up, oh soooooooooo predictable I am surprised you did not post a picture yet.

The problem with all those terrible online stories that you read and believe is that they are not representative of responsible live feeding most are actually negligence such as leaving a rodent in an enclosure without food or water with a snake for days.

You and many before you always come out against live feeding with the same speach which is based on ZERO experience, and it's also funny are intolerant pro F/T feeders are when they really don’t have a clue. :rolleyes:

Personally I don’t care what you feed or what anyone feeds for that matter, what I care about is that people who come here become knowledgeable when it comes to their options, they have choices and they should know the pro and cons of each options and choose the one that is best for them based on knowledge and not fear instigated in them by some pro F/T feeder with ZERO hands on experience on the subject….because that is not education.

I feed 250 live prey a month and have done so for 9 years (and that’s to my established collection this number does not include hatchlings during baby season), I also feed F/T to all my colubrids so I am not pro one or the other however I am experienced enough to know that both are fine when done RESPONSIBLY and I can also tell you that I have never had a single issue and I am not alone.

Here is something you have no clue about based on your statements a good feeder (if not snatched as it touch the floor of then enclosure) will often fall asleep or groom itself, far from that scary monster you describe but you would not know because you have NO IDEA what the keys are for proper live feeding.

Here are some food for the thoughts learn to expend your knowledge, learn to gain REAL experience instead of believing everything you read and or hear on the internet, and after that even if you still feel like F/T is best for you don't judge others who feel that live is best for them or make idiotic comments like you have because it make you lose any credibility you might have.

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Originally Posted by Deborah

I was wondering when you would bring this up, oh soooooooooo predictable I am surprised you did not post a picture yet.

The problem with all those terrible online stories that you read and believe is that they are not representative of responsible live feeding most are actually negligence such as leaving a rodent in an enclosure without food or water with a snake for days.

You and many before you always come out against live feeding with the same speach which is based on ZERO experience, and it's also funny are intolerant pro F/T feeders are when they really don’t have a clue. :rolleyes:

Personally I don’t care what you feed or what anyone feeds for that matter, what I care about is that people who come here become knowledgeable when it comes to their options, they have choices and they should know the pro and cons of each options and choose the one that is best for them based on knowledge and no fear instigated in them by some pro F/T feeder with ZERO hands on experience on the subject….because that is not education.

I feed 250 live prey a month and have done so for 9 years (and that’s to my established collection this number does not include hatchlings during baby season), I also feed F/T to all my colubrids so I am not pro one or the other however I am experienced enough to know that both are fine when done RESPONSIBLY and I can also tell you that I have never had a single issue and I am not alone.

Here is something you have no clue about based on your statements a good feeder (if not snatched as it touch the floor of then enclosure) will often fall asleep or groom itself, far from that scary monster you describe but you would not know because you have NO IDEA what the keys are for proper live feeding.

Here are some food for the thoughts learn to expend your knowledge, learn to gain REAL experience instead of believing everything you read and or hear on the internet, and after that even if you still feel like F/T is best for you don't judge others who feel that live is best for them or make idiotic comments like you have because it make you lose any credibility you might have.

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This. Well said, Deborah.

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Originally Posted by John1982

If only you would read the whole post and apply that big brain of yours..

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Well - Thankfully having a big - brain means that I don't have to resort to using childish personal insults ;)

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Originally Posted by STjepkes

This. Well said, Deborah.

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Yes, but was Deborah's effort worth it for the OP's benefit? We've had this discussion with him/her before, and not too long ago. I thought we all settled to agree to disagree, especially since there were cultural issues at hand with the OP being a friend from the UK. This thread gives me pause, did s/he just want to stir the pot?

Hopefully at least Deb's words are not wasted and others will be educated by a nondiscrminating viewpoint.

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Originally Posted by Reinz

Yes, but was Deborah's effort worth it for the OP's benefit? We've had this discussion with him/her before, and not too long ago. I thought we all settled to agree to disagree, especially since there were cultural issues at hand with the OP being a friend from the UK. This thread gives me pause, did s/he just want to stir the pot?

Hopefully at least Deb's words are not wasted and others will be educated by a nondiscrminating viewpoint.

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I just love ALL living creatures ... as I've said before .... my heart sinks when I step on a snail in the dark .

I'm certainly not trolling ....

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Originally Posted by Zincubus

I just love ALL living creatures ... as I've said before .... my heart sinks when I step on a snail in the dark .

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Your idea of loving all living creatures must be different than mine and others, I love all living creatures too, while I love and respect them I also understand the circle of life, there are preys and their are predators there are also animals with little to no predators that must be managed and because you don't see that does not make you better or should allow you to judge other that see differently.

Whether you like it or not or take a part in the killing or not, animals die every day for YOUR needs and mine whether it's food, leather clothing or accessories, or even research.

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Originally Posted by Zincubus

I just love ALL living creatures ... as I've said before .... my heart sinks when I step on a snail in the dark .

I'm certainly not trolling ....

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You can love all living creatures and still feed live. Heck, I fed live while I was vegan because my snake would have starved otherwise. People are going to be angry when you insinuate that they must not love animals because they do choose or have to feed live, especially since you're speaking from a place of zero experience with it.

i did not state before, but i would never think any more/less of someone who chooses to feed f/t to their snakes

i just prefer live feeding, so i'm going to continue to do that


the key point in all this (at least to me) is that the snakes are getting the food they need to be healthy

We feed ours nothing but live I don't think I'd be comfortable feeding frozen/thawed lol

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Originally Posted by Zincubus

I rather think that the slowly dying rat pup crying like a baby for 25 minutes easily disproves that train of thought ....

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This never happened.

I am forty years old, I have been a keeper since I was six. I have kept hot snakes, constrictors and colubrids. I have fed many hundreds of mice alive and many thousands more f/t. I can say with certainty that no constricting snake ever took 25 minutes to do in a rat pup once a coil was thrown. 25 seconds maybe. Truth be told, there is sometimes a squeek, sometimes a drop of blood on the nose. Cardiac arrest occurs quickly and the mouse dies.

I prefer f/t since it is safer and way more convenient, but if a snake won't change over, then there is nothing wrong with live food. Fortunately, most of us have captive bread snakes, so the snakes will eat f/t. Wild born snakes can be really fussy. As human beings, we cannot tell a reptile evolved over millions of years what it will eat. We can and certainly should try to reduce suffering of the prey and protect our pets to whatever degree is possible, but we also cannot let a snake starve to death because we disagree with its preferences.


David

I don't think the debate over live vs F/T will ever end, however I will say that morally looking down on someone for feeding their snake the exact same food items killed in a different way is very foolish. Is a hunter eating pork from a wild hog they killed themselves any different from a family eating bacon bought from the supermarket? Two pigs lived, two pigs were killed, what difference does it make who killed them and when? This is the part where you could debate certain breeding practices among pigs being highly unethical, but for arguments sake we'll assume the farm raised pigs were raised free range or something like that. A feeder rat is a feeder rat and how it died before disappearing into your snake makes no difference. Whether it died by being constricted or in a gas chamber doesn't matter much to me, because the end result is the same (a humane death and a well fed snake).

As for the feeder hurting the snake; Saying those of us who feed live are putting our snakes at risk is like saying those that own burms in Florida are putting the environment at risk. Responsibility is everything. Horror stories of rats eating prized snakes come from owners that drop a rodent in with their snake and leave it, which goes against rule number one of live feeding. I just fed my 3 finicky juveniles today, and I followed the same practice I always do: Place feeder in tank, supervise until the snake strikes, get the tongs in there if the snake had a bad wrap. They almost always get a good wrap, but sometimes the feeder has enough wiggle room to bite or kick, which I am always there to prevent because the safety of my snakes comes first. If the snake refuses to eat after about 5 minutes, I take the feeder out and try again next week.

Now I'll wrap this up by saying that I have snakes that eat live only, snakes that won't touch anything besides F/T or F/K, and snakes that go either way. I raise my own feeders and even when I buy them from the stores I always insure that what goes into my snakes is fat, happy, and totally unaware that there is any danger to it until it's already much too late. I honestly do not care what anyone else chooses to feed their snakes, because I recognize that it is ultimately not my decision. I will say that I don't appreciate being morally looked down at from people that can only pretend they're any better, and that feeding live, when done properly, presents no danger.

I wonder if this writing came from someone we know?

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15...b2ccc686a1.jpg

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Originally Posted by Reinz

I wonder if this writing came from someone we know?

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15...b2ccc686a1.jpg

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it's a shame that ppl like that can (and do) vote. :(

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Originally Posted by Zincubus

Your mate has just confirmed that he's come across many a scarred snake in the wild .. is he making things up as well ??

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If I speak at one constant volume...

...At one constant pitch...

...At one constant rhythm...

...Right into your ear...

...You still won't hear...

I only have corn snakes. I only feed frozen thawed. I'm also a vet tech so I'm more a 'save the small fuzzy creatures' type person. With all that aside, I am not against feeding live for a snake that is only going to take live. These things happen and I'd rather not have someone's pet starve to death. If people are careful, there are going to be very few accidents, but accidents can still occur. My sister-in-law used to work at a pet store and witnessed a rat kill a young ball python by tearing off a large chunk of its skull after it missed a strike. I have a rat snake that was fed live even after he went blind. The previous owner didn't leave the rats in with him for hours, but he still got injured a lot because he wasn't able to aim his strikes. I got him after he got bit in the roof of his mouth. He's 16 years old now and I'm fairly certain he's the snake equivalent of senile. Feeding live to him would not be responsible feeding. One simply needs to be aware of all the potential factors.