Extremely malnourished ball

I recently got a little ball python girl, who is extremely malnourished. She is about 18 months old and weights only 112 grams. Her previous owner got her when she was about a year old, and even then she was only about 300 grams. The previous owner was new to the ball pythons and didn't realise that something was wrong. She didn't managed to get the snake to eat at all, not once in whole time she had her. Finally she realised she can't keep the snake anymore. So when the poor baby came to me, it hasn't been eating at least for 6 months, maybe never. She is very emaciated, although still active. I have a picture for you, taken last night when she arrived:

http://i590.photobucket.com/albums/s...ps59a4c0a2.jpg

So I talked to few friends of mine who have more experience in ball pythons. In conclusion, I assist fed her last night. The food item was under-sized and she took it well, strangling and swallowing it by herself. Seems that she is able to keep it down (it's been now over 12 hours). The plan is to continue feedeng her small mice in every five days or so.

This is the most skinniest snake I have ever seen, ever. Do you guys have any experience in this kind of situation, do we still have hope of recovery? Any advice how to proceed?

Sorry for my bad english, I'm from Finland and I have not been writing in english for a long time.

WOW!!! Im so glad youve got her now! Please keep us informed on her condition.

Wow. I don't think I have ever seen a snake that skinny. Please keep us updated on how she is doing. Thanks for helping her!

this is terrifying, and cruel. how can people let it go to that extent?

i guess (just guess) a reptile vet would put a tube through her mouth and put in something to rehydrate immediately, followed by nutrition. directly into the stomach.

she is skin and bones, its so terrifying. i fear for the organs, how can it come to this? I hope i am overreacting and that this will be a recovery story. (please keep us updated no matter what). But the image sends chills down my spine.

EDIT: the image distracted me from what you wrote under the image. I am glad she took a meal. For now, if she eats, i would attempt to get 15-20% of her current body weight into her every 5 days, and when it works gradually lower to normal growing hatchling/subadult scedule of 10-15% every 5-7 days.

*1. The fact that she held down a meal is promising.

*2. Feed her again in 5 days?(someone with better knowledgeable please chime in)

*3. Don't keep a large amount of hope for survival. I know this sounds insensitive but it's realistic you may lose her.

*4. Make sure your husbandry is up to par.

*5. I'd guess with each successful feeding increases chances of survival.

*6. Pray to whomever you pray to.


*I'm going off what I've read from others to help you out with all information given.

**Seriously!? This guy is asking for help about his BP which is probably near death and all you can say is "keep us posted!" Sorry to sound insensitive in my inebriated state but I'd say post some help or just bump the thread.

***ty pythonfriend

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Originally Posted by Pythonfriend

i fear for the organs, how can it come to this?

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This is my biggest fear also. In few days we'll see if her digestion is still working. I had her drinking good amount of water last night and I've seen her drinking by herself after that. I am considering soaking her in some point, if the hydration doesn't start to amend. I also think that the trip to vet and tube-feeding would be too much distress for her to handle. So my hope lies on regular small food items, perfect housing conditions and time...

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Originally Posted by Pythonfriend

For now, if she eats, i would attempt to get 15-20% of her current body weight into her every 5 days, and when it works gradually lower to normal growing hatchling/subadult scedule of 10-15% every 5-7 days.

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I don't think her emaciated body can bear up a bigger feeder. Slow but steady start is where I am heading here.

a powerfeeding scedule to, for example, get a male hatchling to breed real soon is: 15-20% of body weight every 5 days, i think this is in order here. if she can keep it down and takes it.

Just go from her current weight of 112 grams, so for now try to maybe put between 17-22 grams into her every 5 days. under normal conditions this is powerfeeding, but under these extreme conditions it is what is needed. I guesstimate under normal conditions she should be at 400 grams now, at least. The conflicting messages are: "plump her up" and also "dont overdo it".

Heck, i retract and say i dont know, if her kidneys or liver already got a beating then maybe what i advise is too much for her to stomach, quite literally.

EDIT: OP snuck a post in before mine :) try frozen thawed or prekilled assist feeds. And maybe you should start slowly.

i dont know: take it slow for now, or go right to a powerfeed scedule? im now a bit torn. she needs to get over the hill and into stability, but then when she is stable i guess some powerfeeding for a while is in order, to get her to normal proportions.

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Originally Posted by jaded

...I don't think her emaciated body can bear up a bigger feeder. Slow but steady start is where I am heading here.

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Originally Posted by Pythonfriend

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EDIT: OP snuck a post in before mine :) try frozen thawed or prekilled assist feeds. And maybe you should start slowly.

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From what i've read on the forums taking it slow seems the best route whether she survives or not. Small meals so her system doesn't get over-loaded is probably the best(my guess for the first 3 feedings if she keeps them down). After the 3rd feeding then move her up in size or increase number of prey items.

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Originally Posted by Pythonfriend

this is terrifying, and cruel. how can people let it go to that extent?

i guess (just guess) a reptile vet would put a tube through her mouth and put in something to rehydrate immediately, followed by nutrition. directly into the stomach.

she is skin and bones, its so terrifying. i fear for the organs, how can it come to this? I hope i am overreacting and that this will be a recovery story. (please keep us updated no matter what). But the image sends chills down my spine.

EDIT: the image distracted me from what you wrote under the image. I am glad she took a meal. For now, if she eats, i would attempt to get 15-20% of her current body weight into her every 5 days, and when it works gradually lower to normal growing hatchling/subadult scedule of 10-15% every 5-7 days.

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If you don't understand the 10-15% rule and when to recommend it, please stop using it. I mean no disrespct by this but that's only the case with hatchlings. A snake that's longer will offset that and if you understood that in the first place then you would not recommend it. So again, please stop.

@OP - I'm not sure if they have pedalite in Finland, but that may help I hope but regardless it's still worth a shot. It's not the cheapest stuff and it doesn't have any kind of a shelf life but I know from a cases with a few dehydrated animals that worked wonders. So it's worth a shot if you can, but the only thing is you'd most likely have to pour a down a tube so a vet would be the best bet for this.

As far as feeding her, 5 days at the maximum. What I would do if I were in the situation is feed 5 days for the first 2-3 meals. Then once you see that she's using the bathroom and passing everything okay, I would try to bump up to 4. The reason I say 2-3 is because then maybe she may start eating on her own. Keep us updated on her situation please. Thanks.

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Originally Posted by Pyrate81

From what i've read on the forums taking it slow seems the best route whether she survives or not. Small meals so her system doesn't get over-loaded is probably the best(my guess for the first 3 feedings if she keeps them down). After the 3rd feeding then move her up in size or increase number of prey items.

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^ This, absolutely. Give her the opportunity to feed without assistance next time, too. Since she is eating and drinking, she does not need other "remedies", only time. I would wait until after meal three or so to soak her, just so she has less stress and more strength.

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Originally Posted by Pythonfriend

i dont know: take it slow for now, or go right to a powerfeed scedule? im now a bit torn. she needs to get over the hill and into stability, but then when she is stable i guess some powerfeeding for a while is in order, to get her to normal proportions.

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What's "powerfeeding"?:popcorn:

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Originally Posted by Neal

@OP - I'm not sure if they have pedalite in Finland, but that may help I hope but regardless it's still worth a shot. It's not the cheapest stuff and it doesn't have any kind of a shelf life but I know from a cases with a few dehydrated animals that worked wonders. So it's worth a shot if you can, but the only thing is you'd most likely have to pour a down a tube so a vet would be the best bet for this.

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I've heard of this as well...and for the OP, it's spelled Pedialyte in case you try to find it. Supposedly, along with hydrating the animal, the nutrients it contains will help kick in their feeding response or make them hungry. I was told to put some in their water dish so when they drink they also get the Pedialyte. I've never personally tried it so I'm not sure how well it works, if at all, but like Neal said, it's worth a shot...

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Originally Posted by sho220

What's "powerfeeding"?:popcorn:

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that is when you go for a food scedule that is quite a bit heavier than usually advised to get a higher than usual weight gain over time. like when you want a ball to breed sooner, or when you have a BP that was at 300 grams 8 months ago and is today at 112 grams while it should be around 400+ at least. an example of powerfeeding would be 20% of body weight in food offered every 5 days. done outside of the context of breeding, or recovery from starvation, it would lead to a really fat and overweight snake over time.

so powerfeeding is to go above a usual feed scedule when it comes to the amount of food, to a degree that it would lead to an obese snake if you would just keep it up for no reason.

But i already backpedaled, i would be all for powerfeeding this girl up to normal levels if and only if we would know that the internal organs are all fine, which we do not know. So i revised and said to take it slow and see if the BP does fine. and if she does fine, and digestion works and the organs work, maybe powerfeed her from 170-400 grams.

That's not power feeding in my opinion. A snake won't eat it if doesn't want to. Just like how it will eat as much as it will eat when it wants.
If the snake is hungry they will eat on their own. Some snakes will not eat if a feeder is too large or too small.

I personally find power feeding to be force feeding. An example would be daisy chaining feeders together to trick the snake into thinking it is eating 1 feeder rather than multiple. Same thing goes for sticking a feeder down the snakes throat as its swallowing another. Or even unnecessarily force feeding.

If the snake is willing to eat on its own, I personally don't find that "power feeding". And I mean in the content of ball pythons. They go off feed constantly, so I want my snakes to eat a lot when they are willing so they have the fat reserves to endure those fasts.

Anyway. I agree that the OP shouldn't put his snake on a short feeding schedule. It will just upset the snake's digestive system. Start will smaller prey than normal once a week or every other week for a while. Try live hopper mice to entice her to eat and jump start the feeding response.

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Also. If you don't have Pedialyte, any kind of electrolyte solution will work. You can get electrolyte powder mix from pharmacies and/or drug stores to put in water. Even a sports drink like diluted Gatorade will work in a pinch.

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Originally Posted by Pythonfriend

powerfeed

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http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-ZvmAJdTCOt...25-animate.jpg

Satomi knows, good information up there. :D

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I've only used pedialyte with severely dehydrated kittens, but I can say it works wonders if you can't get subcutaneous fluids.

Holy cow is she thin. Her keeping the meal down is a good sign for sure. Is she not at all interested in eating on her own? Coiling is more than any of my assist fed snakes did so I'd take that as a good sign too. I would feed her a small meal every 3 to 4 days. Just don't stress her out too much. Assist feeding is really tough on them.

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This makes me want to cry. I can't believe how much of a fighter she must be to still be going. I am so glad you have taken her in!

Resist the temptation to feed too much too soon. Slow and steady is the way to go with ball pythons that have been starved. Feeding too frequently can do more harm than good. Five days is the most frequent I would go until she is no longer emaciated.

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Originally Posted by rabernet

Resist the temptation to feed too much too soon. Slow and steady is the way to go with ball pythons that have been starved. Feeding too frequently can do more harm than good. Five days is the most frequent I would go until she is no longer emaciated.

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Yeah Robin is probably right about only feeding every 5. How weak is she? Does she move around or just lay there half dead?

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Thanks everyone, I really appreciate your advice and concern.

She is still somewhat active, moving around occasionally. She doesn't have very much strenght, obviously, but she still has some spark in her. She has kept down the last night's meal, which gives me hope. I am breeding my own mice, so I have good chance to try and stimulate her feeding response. Last night she showed absolutely no interest in feeder when I offered it. But I really hope she will start to eat

Dehydration/electrolyte-thing is something I have to take under consideration. We do have many electrolyte-products here available and I am a nurse so even subcutaneus injections can be an option, if it seems the best way to go.

If all else fails, you can attempt to force feed it protein enriched baby food. Buy a feeder syringe and attach a piece of aquarium tubing on the syringe tip and make sure it's lubricated with cooking oil. Afterwards insert the tubing about 3" into the snake's mouth and SLOWLY inject the syringe. I did this over a period of a month to nurse one of my pythons back into health after going off feed for a year. Now he's one of my best sires!

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Originally Posted by rabernet

Resist the temptation to feed too much too soon. Slow and steady is the way to go with ball pythons that have been starved. Feeding too frequently can do more harm than good. Five days is the most frequent I would go until she is no longer emaciated.

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This, nice and slow as Robin mentioned

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Originally Posted by RoyalCityPythons

If all else fails, you can attempt to force feed it protein enriched baby food. Buy a feeder syringe and attach a piece of aquarium tubing on the syringe tip and make sure it's lubricated with cooking oil. Afterwards insert the tubing about 3" into the snake's mouth and SLOWLY inject the syringe. I did this over a period of a month to nurse one of my pythons back into health after going off feed for a year. Now he's one of my best sires!

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:colbert: I do not recommend this, if this animal is eating (and it has take it's first meal), this will only create unnecessary stress.

Again feeding smaller preys every 5 to 7 days until the animal gets back into a better shape is what is needed here and of course in the meantime, small living area, minimum handling, I would not even worry about the stuck shed at this point either not until you can get several meals in her.

Glad u got her,best of luck and get her back to help..keep us updated on her progress?.

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Originally Posted by jaded

I recently got a little ball python girl, who is extremely malnourished. She is about 18 months old and weights only 112 grams. Her previous owner got her when she was about a year old, and even then she was only about 300 grams. The previous owner was new to the ball pythons and didn't realise that something was wrong. She didn't managed to get the snake to eat at all, not once in whole time she had her. Finally she realised she can't keep the snake anymore. So when the poor baby came to me, it hasn't been eating at least for 6 months, maybe never. She is very emaciated, although still active. I have a picture for you, taken last night when she arrived:

http://i590.photobucket.com/albums/s...ps59a4c0a2.jpg

So I talked to few friends of mine who have more experience in ball pythons. In conclusion, I assist fed her last night. The food item was under-sized and she took it well, strangling and swallowing it by herself. Seems that she is able to keep it down (it's been now over 12 hours). The plan is to continue feedeng her small mice in every five days or so.

This is the most skinniest snake I have ever seen, ever. Do you guys have any experience in this kind of situation, do we still have hope of recovery? Any advice how to proceed?

Sorry for my bad english, I'm from Finland and I have not been writing in english for a long time.

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First of all THANK YOU for taking this girl in and looking out for her (and your English is just fine by the way ;)), I teared up when I saw that picture.

I agree with Robin and Deborah, this is much like when you have people recovering from starvation situations, if you suddenly flood the system with nutrients it can be enough of a shock to finish them off. Just take it slowly and gently.

Since she's drinking on her own, you probably do not need to worry about pedialyte and I would definitely stay away from injections (just more stress). I have had success with it in the past, but it's usually reserved for severe dehyrdation, which she doesn't have if you've seen her drinking. Just let her do her thing.

It sounds like she's a fighter, I'm amazed she's survived in that condition, let alone is still moving around her cage. I hope she keeps fighting for you, and we would love continued updates on her progress. Best wishes for you both.

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Originally Posted by satomi325

That's not power feeding in my opinion. A snake won't eat it if doesn't want to. Just like how it will eat as much as it will eat when it wants.
If the snake is hungry they will eat on their own. Some snakes will not eat if a feeder is too large or too small.

I personally find power feeding to be force feeding. An example would be daisy chaining feeders together to trick the snake into thinking it is eating 1 feeder rather than multiple. Same thing goes for sticking a feeder down the snakes throat as its swallowing another. Or even unnecessarily force feeding.

If the snake is willing to eat on its own, I personally don't find that "power feeding". And I mean in the content of ball pythons. They go off feed constantly, so I want my snakes to eat a lot when they are willing so they have the fat reserves to endure those fasts.

Anyway. I agree that the OP shouldn't put his snake on a short feeding schedule. It will just upset the snake's digestive system. Start will smaller prey than normal once a week or every other week for a while. Try live hopper mice to entice her to eat and jump start the feeding response.

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Now I got hammered for saying this exact thing! "If the snake is hungry they will eat on their own"....How odd! Actually I said "they will eat if they are hungry", which I think is the same thing. Am I right Neal?:rolleye2:

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Originally Posted by ROACH

Now I got hammered for saying this exact thing! "If the snake is hungry they will eat on their own"....How odd! Actually I said "they will eat if they are hungry", which I think is the same thing. Am I right Neal?:rolleye2:

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In what content did you say your statement?

I also said, " A snake(BP) won't eat it if doesn't want to."
That goes for being picky with prey items. Some will for sure starve themselves before switching to a certain prey, if that is their preference.

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Originally Posted by satomi325

In what content did you say your statement?

I also said, " A snake(BP) won't eat it if doesn't want to."
That goes for being picky with prey items. Some will for sure starve themselves before switching to a certain prey, if that is their preference.

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This is the Thread...From live mice to f/t rats
This is the Question....
Hi,

First post in this forum, although I've been browsing it for a while.

I have one question to add to the thousands of questions that must have been asked on how to switch a snake's feeding habit.
But hopefully this is going to be a slightly different question :p

So, I recently got a female that has been eating live mice with her previous owner. With time, I'd like to switch her to f/t rats. I have switched from f/t mice to f/t rats successfully on other animals, but this is a "double switch", and I wonder if someone has any advice on the best strategy.

The options I have in mind are:
A) Switch from live to frozen mice first. Then switch from frozen mice to frozen rats

B) switch from live mice to live rats first, and then go from there to f/t rats.

C) Try to do it in one go, and get her to switch directly from live mice to f/t rats.

Anyone has had success with that kind of switch? Which strategy do you think would work best?

Thanks!
This was my reply....
I'd say choice "C". She will eat it if shes hungry. May take her awhile, but im sure it will work. Good luck which ever choice you choose.
Oh and welcome to the forum!

I wouldn't say it at all because snakes will starve themselves. So I would never say it, regarding any content, and yes ROACH I did correct you because I've seen balls first hand starve themselves.

She used it in a different content though which is probably why nobody said anything.

If she would of said something like all snakes will eat if they're eventually or something similar to that then I'm sure others would of corrected her. It's just how she worded it that's all my friend.

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Originally Posted by Neal

I wouldn't say it at all because snakes will starve themselves. So I would never say it, regarding any content, and yes ROACH I did correct you because I've seen balls first hand starve themselves.

She used it in a different content though which is probably why nobody said anything.

If she would of said something like all snakes will eat if they're eventually or something similar to that then I'm sure others would of corrected her. It's just how she worded it that's all my friend.

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Im not like someone else, Im not going to argue with you here lol. I understand. Ive just never had a snake actually starve themselves to the point of death. Eventually they have eaten, for me that is. Im deffently not saying your wrong, just havent experienced it myself.

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Originally Posted by ROACH

Im not like someone else, Im not going to argue with you here lol. I understand. Ive just never had a snake actually starve themselves to the point of death. Eventually they have eaten, for me that is. Im deffently not saying your wrong, just havent experienced it myself.

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Oh I know what you're saying. I'm not saying it's common they do it but it has happened before. But because it hasn't happened to you, you didn't think it does happen so you tell the OP who's new that it won't happen and it ends up happening then they blame you and it's because of something you haven't experienced. That's why I corrected you when you had said what you did in the other thread.

For instance I have a friend who had a snake that was born with only half of a lower jaw. The snake won't eat and it most likely won't. It'll end up starving itself to death and while probably no person has the answer why they do this, it happens. It's sad but it's the real truth. The snake would probably have to end up being assist fed for the rest of its life which would be extremely stressful.

Then on the other hand I have another friend who has a snake with no eyes and he eats very well, he's like 500 and something grams. Then I know another person who has a snake that only has one eye that is a very problem feeder. I can't tell you why BPs do what they do and chances are nobody will ever be able to give an accurate reason.

Not to get off topic but I fully agree they will starve themselves... case in point my hatchling that didn't eat for 2 months, no matter what I tried, she took the live within a minute of it hitting her tank floor, and has ever since
I was not willing to find out if she'd hold out longer than me.

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Originally Posted by Crazymonkee

Not to get off topic but I fully agree they will starve themselves... case in point my hatchling that didn't eat for 2 months, no matter what I tried, she took the live within a minute of it hitting her tank floor, and has ever since
I was not willing to find out if she'd hold out longer than me.

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I understand they will starve themselves. I think my whole point was that if you try ALL means of feeding, I believe they will eat eventually. Im defentlly not saying may not, I just believe they will. Now if you dont try everything and lets say only try F/T....yes they may starve themselves to death. In the case with your baby, if you only kept trying what you were, then maybe it wouldnt of turned out as good. You tried something different and the baby ate. Thats all I was trying to say.

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Originally Posted by ROACH

I understand they will starve themselves. I think my whole point was that if you try ALL means of feeding, I believe they will eat eventually. Im defentlly not saying may not, I just believe they will. Now if you dont try everything and lets say only try F/T....yes they may starve themselves to death. In the case with your baby, if you only kept trying what you were, then maybe it wouldnt of turned out as good. You tried something different and the baby ate. Thats all I was trying to say.

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Now put that way ... yes. (Although some really stubborn ones may need assist fed). But just to say they will all eat eventually is very vague and misleading.

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Folks, if you need to continue the discussion about whether BPs will starve themselves or not, please start a new thread. I know you didn't mean to hijack, but let's not forget why the OP posted in the first place.

BTW - Good luck and keep us posted!

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Originally Posted by Deborah

This, nice and slow as Robin mentioned

:colbert: I do not recommend this, if this animal is eating (and it has take it's first meal), this will only create unnecessary stress.

Again feeding smaller preys every 5 to 7 days until the animal gets back into a better shape is what is needed here and of course in the meantime, small living area, minimum handling, I would not even worry about the stuck shed at this point either not until you can get several meals in her.

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Deborah, I mentioned it as a last resort. Obviously, you would not force feed a sickly animal when it's eating on it's own. Only tube feed as that would be the last choice if it's not eating at all.

Oh my god that poor thing! :( I really hope she keeps her mice down and makes a strong recovery.

She ate today second time, pre-killed mouse. She atacked almost instantly, strangled and swallowed it. I guess she's not that bad feeder after all :)

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Originally Posted by jaded

She ate today second time, pre-killed mouse. She atacked almost instantly, strangled and swallowed it. I guess she's not that bad feeder after all :)

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Thats awesome! Keep up the good work. :)

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Originally Posted by jaded

She ate today second time, pre-killed mouse. She atacked almost instantly, strangled and swallowed it. I guess she's not that bad feeder after all :)

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Yay! Congrats!
She's probably feeling much better since you took her in and has gained enough strength to feed on her own. :)
I'm very happy for you two.

I'll be watching her recovery very closely. I can't wait to see her a few months from now.

This makes me wonder what the previous owner tried to do to get her to eat... OR if she even tried at all.

I just went up to the snake room and inspected all the enclosure's conditions.... I was getting paranoid after seeing the poor condition that snake is in. I wanted to take them out and inspect every snake but stopped myself. Gotta get a grip.

Thank you for trying to save that little one! Does she even have a name?

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Originally Posted by anatess

This makes me wonder what the previous owner tried to do to get her to eat... OR if she even tried at all.

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This is the exact thing I've been wondering past few days. Seems like there is nothing wrong with the snake or her appetite. Although, we don't know what where the conditions she was in, when she was still with her previous owner. But yeah... it makes you wonder.

I named her Hope, hoping that the name would be an omen :oops:

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Originally Posted by anatess

This makes me wonder what the previous owner tried to do to get her to eat... OR if she even tried at all.

I just went up to the snake room and inspected all the enclosure's conditions.... I was getting paranoid after seeing the poor condition that snake is in. I wanted to take them out and inspect every snake but stopped myself. Gotta get a grip.

Thank you for trying to save that little one! Does she even have a name?

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U sound absolutely crazy man:(

Following thread. Good luck and looking forward to your updates!

DO NOT POWERFEED. When ppl and animals are starving, large amounts of food will kill them. You need to take it very slow.

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Originally Posted by kylearmbar

DO NOT POWERFEED. When ppl and animals are starving, large amounts of food will kill them. You need to take it very slow.

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Really? :confuzd:

Hope is a beautiful name. I'm glad you have her, and I'm glad getting her to eat doesn't seem to be too problematic. She's in good hands. :)

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Originally Posted by ROACH

Really? :confuzd:

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Yes really, depending on how long anything has been starved organs can start to slow down and become damaged. Not saying this is the case here, but it's always best to start slow and work your way up

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