Spider Head Wobble Please Read

I'm interested in the spider mutations head wobble and I'm going to experiment with it to see if I can breed it out and how it happens, how you can "control" it, how you can, what parents make really bad wobble witch ones will make little to no wobble, and every if its possible to get rid of it. So I'd you have any ideas to get the wobble gene out please respond, and I know its probably impossible but its worth a shot its just something that interests me and I want to look into it.

You can't. A parent with the worst possible wobble imaginable (corkscrewing, stargazing, the whole bit) can produce babies that don't appear to have a wobble at all. Or vice versa - snakes that don't seem to wobble can produce babies that fail to thrive due to their wobble and have to be put down. It can't be bred out, unless you breed it out by removing the spider morph. The spider morph and the neurological condition that causes the wobble are linked. You won't have a spider without a wobble (they may not appear to wobble, but they still carry that trait) but you also won't have a snake produced by that spider that wobbles (ie. a normal produced from a normal x spider cross will not wobble).

Morphs similar to the spider, like womas, also wobble.

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Originally Posted by Inarikins

You can't. A parent with the worst possible wobble imaginable (corkscrewing, stargazing, the whole bit) can produce babies that don't appear to have a wobble at all. Or vice versa - snakes that don't seem to wobble can produce babies that fail to thrive due to their wobble and have to be put down. It can't be bred out, unless you breed it out by removing the spider morph. The spider morph and the neurological condition that causes the wobble are linked. You won't have a spider without a wobble (they may not appear to wobble, but they still carry that trait) but you also won't have a snake produced by that spider that wobbles (ie. a normal produced from a normal x spider cross will not wobble).

Morphs similar to the spider, like womas, also wobble.

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I already know this but nobody has really experimented most people are just making more and more spiders to make money and in my post I said its probably impossible so I don't need someone else saying it that has probably never tried and has just read stuff by other people who haven't tried.

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Originally Posted by TylerWaugh

I already know this but nobody has really experimented most people are just making more and more spiders to make money and in my post I said its probably impossible so I don't need someone else saying it that has probably never tried and has just read stuff by other people who haven't tried.

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It's probably impossible...

People have tried. But the fact that spiders that appear not to wobble produce spiders that do wobble and it happens consistently means that it's not something that can be taken out. The wobble and the change in appearance are linked. The wobble may even be caused by the same genes that change the spider's pattern into what it is. It's genetic. Spiders are not a new morph. People have tried and have tried for years. And, really, there's not a lot of money left in plain spiders anymore. You're more than welcome to try to breed the wobble out of spiders, though, and I wish you all the luck in the world. :) Personally, I think it's impossible.

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Originally Posted by TylerWaugh

I already know this but nobody has really experimented most people are just making more and more spiders to make money and in my post I said its probably impossible so I don't need someone else saying it that has probably never tried and has just read stuff by other people who haven't tried.

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You really don't think any of the big breeders haven't tried? :confusd:

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Originally Posted by TylerWaugh

I already know this but nobody has really experimented most people are just making more and more spiders to make money and in my post I said its probably impossible so I don't need someone else saying it that has probably never tried and has just read stuff by other people who haven't tried.

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How do you know that nobodys experimented?
I don't think making a quick buck is how big breeders end up owning 100's-1000's of snakes without having the passion or the drive to experiment...how else would be end up with nutty morphs and find out about things like the Pearl and HGW.

I have caught some youtube vids by some breeders that have said they tried.
If i found out a dude could make non wobblers it wouldn't change anything personally, I don't mind the wobble, i see it like a dog wagging its tail.


Good luck though

It's been tried. Many times over, so far unsuccessfully. If you want to give it a try, I wish you all the best of luck. I've pretty much stopped breeding spiders because of their issues so if someone could figure out how to consistently produce non-spinning spiders I'd really appreciate that.

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Originally Posted by MarkS

It's been tried. Many times over, so far unsuccessfully. If you want to give it a try, I wish you all the best of luck. I've pretty much stopped breeding spiders because of their issues so if someone could figure out how to consistently produce non-spinning spiders I'd really appreciate that.

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Wow really? That bad? I have a spider-ghost project in mind because I adore hypo queen bees.

OP: I also read that some spiders with little or no wobble as babies sometimes grow into having wobbles as adults, or vice versa, they could grow out of it... seems impossible to monitor unless you're willing to keep every spider you'll produce through its life. Some have conditional wobbles... like my bee; I only notice he has a wobble when he's excited, typically when I feed him- he usually misses once or twice before he gets it, or I also notice he takes a while to "focus" on the mouse. He tends to stare it down and let it walk literally right by his nose for about five or more minutes before he finally decides to strike. By contrast, I put a mouse in with my normal, and BOOM, fatality.
Of course, he may get a worse wobble when he's older... but maybe not. We only know with time.


On a slightly different but still relevant note, I read spider x spider babies have 25% fatality rate. Is this true?

Even spiders that have little to no visible wobble can develop wobbles later on in life. And vice versa with animals that have wobbles as hatchlings.
It is part of the spider gene.

No one breeds the train wrecks on purpose to promote wobbles. Those animals are often culled or fail to thrive on their own.


My personal theory: the genes responsible for the formation of the spider dorsal markings of the spider affect the nervous system. Similar to how Rhodesian Ridgeback dogs can have neuro issues due to the ridge on their back. Yay for the spinal column! >_<

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Originally Posted by DestinyLynette

Wow really? That bad? I have a spider-ghost project in mind because I adore hypo queen bees.

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well, I've produced many nice spiders with no problems, but I've also produced enough that weren't quite 'train wrecks' but also were bad enough that I didn't feel comfortable selling them. So now, they're mine forever. I felt that the hand writing was pretty much on the wall and I had to ask myself just how many non productive spiders do I want to house? Realistically I probably will breed them again sometime but it would have to be a pretty interesting project. So right now they're a bunch of freeloading rat vacuums.

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Originally Posted by MarkS

well, I've produced many nice spiders with no problems, but I've also produced enough that weren't quite 'train wrecks' but also were bad enough that I didn't feel comfortable selling them. So now, they're mine forever. I felt that the hand writing was pretty much on the wall and I had to ask myself just how many non productive spiders do I want to house? Realistically I probably will breed them again sometime but it would have to be a pretty interesting project. So right now they're a bunch of freeloading rat vacuums.

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I think I've gotten really lucky over the years. I've only produced maybe 20 or so Spiders or Spider combos and haven't had any serious wobblers or spinners. Most show no sign of wobbling, a few showed a little. I still have several that I've raised up and none have developed any wobbling over the years. All the Spiders/Spider combos in my collection came from the same male I picked up in 2006. Producing a really bad spinner would probably horrify me and have me seriously contemplating working with them beyond that. I've seen a few spinners at shows and it's pretty sad.

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Originally Posted by DestinyLynette

On a slightly different but still relevant note, I read spider x spider babies have 25% fatality rate. Is this true?

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uStCAKMbnqQ

Heres 1 of 2 videos NERD has about lethal combos and they speak of spiders as well...spoiler...not lethal. :)

Personally I have yet to see a spider that does not wobble or show a tremor to some degree, if you watch closely enough. Sometimes it is very slight, and only shows up if the snake is excited. Our first spider, I swore up and down did not wobble, until someone pointed out the minor tremor that showed up at feeding. Fortunately, I have not produced any severe wobblers.

I did have an incident where I shipped a spider that showed the typical tremor at feeding time, then had the buyer say she was a trainwreck on arrival. She was miraculously cured when I asked for a video before giving a refund, so I tend to doubt the legitimacy of that particular case, but I do believe that stress can make a "non wobbler" develop a wobble. So, I will now be providing videos of any spiders I sell, just to be safe.

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Originally Posted by DestinyLynette

On a slightly different but still relevant note, I read spider x spider babies have 25% fatality rate. Is this true?

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Maybe, and maybe not. Nobody knows. It is all guesswork. Nobody posts numbers of eggs, hatchlings, slugs, and what (if any) type of embryo is inside the slugs.

It is well known that breeder females need higher levels of vitamins than nonbreeders. Would a vitamin supplement for the parents produce a smaller proportion of spinning spider royals? Might be worth a try.

OP I'll start by saying I agree that you will probably discover nothing new but....

everyone seems in to agree that the variability of the wobble is all over the place and seems to show no pattern. We accept that, but why is it all over the place? This is more a question for a geneticist and not really going to be solved by simply breeding a bunch of snakes. I would have to imagine that person would need some sort of data to even begin to start thinking of possible answers to why. Epigenetic event perhaps? Another locus effecting it or multiple loci? Factors outside of genetics?

I keep hearing that many people have tired to breed it out.... what was actually tired? Did they breed some low wobble spiders to a normal and give up or how many generation did they go before calling it quits because I have a feeling there are very few who actually have some extensive data on this. It would be interesting to hear those results.

here is part of something I wrote a while ago you might find interesting. Still doesn't help you with your project though.

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I don't believe the wobble is going to be seperated from these morphs. There is too much evidence it is linked directly to the gene, but I think it can be reduced. I see stress levels might play a factor in the amount of wobble the Spider's show. As stated before, every snake is different, but I have personally seen how changing homes can bring a minimal wobble, to horrible wobble, to minimal wobble again. Many people report only seeing signs of it while only feeding, or only while being handled. I feel this strengthens the idea that stress or excitement can elevate the condition.

I know this may be a touchy subject for some Wobbler owners whose snakes exhibit a particularly bad wobble. They may feel like i'm saying their not taking care of their snake correctly. I will say if your snake is eating and living a healthy life, you are doing a great job, there may be Wobblers that will always have the bad wobble, but also it may need extra accommodations beyond the normal to feel less stressed (ex. extra hide, more foliage, less direct light, ect). Yes, I am suggesting the 2 hide, water bowl, cookie cutter setup may not be right for every ball python in general and the Wobblers just shows it. I have talked this over with many people and online and I think it all comes to the same conclusion that it's near impossible to test this theory. Some people have stories that strengthen the theory and some have stories that 100% conflict with it. So take it as you wish. If you have any input on this feel free to contect me, it would be great to hear what you have to say.

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Originally Posted by TylerWaugh

I already know this but nobody has really experimented most people are just making more and more spiders to make money and in my post I said its probably impossible so I don't need someone else saying it that has probably never tried and has just read stuff by other people who haven't tried.

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Kevin from NERD has, he's produced hundreds of them. They are all decendents from his original spider. No other spiders have ever been found in the wild.

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Originally Posted by Mr Oni

Heres 1 of 2 videos NERD has about lethal combos and they speak of spiders as well...spoiler...not lethal. :)

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The "Invisible Cat" argument...

Unfortunately this is yet another instance of Kevin's word being taken as gospel on a topic he does not have the proper knowledge base to be making absolute statements about.

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

everyone seems in to agree that the variability of the wobble is all over the place and seems to show no pattern. We accept that, but why is it all over the place? This is more a question for a geneticist and not really going to be solved by simply breeding a bunch of snakes... Epigenetic event perhaps? Another locus effecting it or multiple loci? Factors outside of genetics?

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I can answer that one for you --Stochasticity.

The short version: Just because all Spiders have the same gene does not mean that gene is expressed in a 100% absolutely identical manner in every Spider. The variation in the expression level of the Spider gene, the interaction of the Spider gene product with other gene products, the variation in the level of expression of the genes whose products interact with the Spider gene... All these things combined act to create a spectrum of intensity of the wobble phenotype.

Here's going to be my recomendation. If the only way you're going to know for sure that what you're being told is the truth is to spend the next 7-20 years proving or disproving this. I say go for it, you might inadvertantly stumble on something the rest of us have over looked..and honestly good luck to you in your venture.

A friend of mine received his Spider and was floored by its condition. Imagine paying $20K cash for a snake, and when you receive it, it basically ties itself in knots over and over again. When he contacted the breeder, he said that is just what Spiders do. So, people who wanted to make their money back kept it quiet for several years. I imagine NERD did everything they could think of to breed the wobble out. My advice to people now, buy Pinstripes instead. I got rid of every spider I owned except one.

Dave

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Originally Posted by EmberBall

My advice to people now, buy Pinstripes instead. I got rid of every spider I owned except one.

Dave

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Seriously? My advice to people, to completely ignore this ^^^ :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by DooLittle

Seriously? My advice to people, to completely ignore this ^^^ :rolleyes:

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Agree
Agree
Agree!!

I love my bumblebees and my spider albino. Wouldn't trade them for anything.

And I don't like pins

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Originally Posted by asplundii

I can answer that one for you --Stochasticity.

The short version: Just because all Spiders have the same gene does not mean that gene is expressed in a 100% absolutely identical manner in every Spider. The variation in the expression level of the Spider gene, the interaction of the Spider gene product with other gene products, the variation in the level of expression of the genes whose products interact with the Spider gene... All these things combined act to create a spectrum of intensity of the wobble phenotype.

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In my dumb down understanding, epigenetics and multiple loci basically? Wouldn't it be reasonable to think at some point, it could be selectively reduced to some extent? I mean I understand there are even factors outside of genetics that can even effect genetics, asplundii we have talked enough were I think you know what I understand. I see there is an accepted word of mouth that it is completely random because "many have tried." There seems to be very little data on what the many tired to do exactly. I mean I'm guilty of the just accept it, everyone says so. Now I am questioning it, is it really even correct to say It can't be reduced? Obviously the things effecting it could just be too complex and appear random, but what do we really have to go on to say random, end story?

I produced an 8 egg clutch last year. Out of that I got 1.4 spiders 1.2 normals. The one male spider had a pretty noticeable wobble when striking, he was also the last out of the egg and had the best pattern and highest white . The other 3 girls had a very slight wobble when striking but the holdback female (cleanest pattern) had no visible wobble even when handled. So in my experience/opinion spiders can throw babies who exhibit no wobble and heavy wobbble in the same clutch.
Pairing was a normal x spider. Father was the spider and showed a slight wobble.

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Originally Posted by DooLittle

Seriously? My advice to people, to completely ignore this ^^^ :rolleyes:

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You can ignore my advice, but imagine the disappointment when you hatch a $5000 combo that has the Spider gene in it, and the snake is a train wreck. I guarantee you will look back and say, wow, maybe I should have gotten that Pin instead. I went several years without making a Spider that wobbled excessively. You might too. But, when that morph combo you have been dreaming about making for years finally becomes reality, and it is a wreck...

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Originally Posted by EmberBall

You can ignore my advice, but imagine the disappointment when you hatch a $5000 combo that has the Spider gene in it, and the snake is a train wreck. I guarantee you will look back and say, wow, maybe I should have gotten that Pin instead. I went several years without making a Spider that wobbled excessively. You might too. But, when that morph combo you have been dreaming about making for years finally becomes reality, and it is a wreck...

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I dont like pins. I do like spiders. So I will keep mine thank you.

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Originally Posted by EmberBall

You can ignore my advice, but imagine the disappointment when you hatch a $5000 combo that has the Spider gene in it, and the snake is a train wreck. I guarantee you will look back and say, wow, maybe I should have gotten that Pin instead. I went several years without making a Spider that wobbled excessively. You might too. But, when that morph combo you have been dreaming about making for years finally becomes reality, and it is a wreck...

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I'll stick to my spiders.

You stick to your pins.

But it's pretty stupid to try and tell people not to get spiders, just because YOU don't want to deal with the wobble.

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Originally Posted by DooLittle

I dont like pins. I do like spiders. So I will keep mine thank you.

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I like both, which is why I have a Spinner. :D She only wobbles slightly when stressed or excited at feeding time, and the severity is decreasing as she ages.

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Originally Posted by DooLittle

I dont like pins. I do like spiders. So I will keep mine thank you.

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I'm nuts. I've been working Spider into everything in my collection. :D

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Originally Posted by Bobbafett

I'll stick to my spiders.

You stick to your pins.

But it's pretty stupid to try and tell people not to get spiders, just because YOU don't want to deal with the wobble.

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Ditto this. I adore my bee and bee morphs, and there are very few pin morphs I really like. If I produce a $5000 morph that's a train wreck, oh well, it's a risk I run- but for every $5000 morph I produce that's just beautiful in every aspect? I'll feel very blessed. You breed for the love of the snake, no matter what "train wrecks" they are. Zerok is a derp and 9/10 times will miss his prey on first, maybe second, strike, but he's still my boy and I know he'll make me some beautiful babies.

Both have issues and both have decent replacements. If you like Spiders, chances are you like cool patterns so you might like the Pin. If you like Caramels, you have a good substitute without all the kinking issues in the Ultramel. I do not care one way or the other what you keep, could honestly care less, but train wrecks suck. I was just pointing out an option to keep others from the heartache of expensive train wrecks. Keep making your Bumble Bees, Spider x Pastel, what an inventive combo...I am not trying to steer you away if you LOVE spiders, just if you are on the fence about what to get....the Spider might not be the best choice if you are breeding Balls.

Dave

From what I've heard, spider x spider breeding, which has been claimed to be done and is not fatal, produces some bad wobbles, and I find that theory quite plausible. That said, the spider wobble is often not extreme, and some spiders are known to never have it. (On noticeable scale, anyway.)

Some Champagnes wobble, although the one I have is flawless. I am not sure if it is because he is a Pastel Champagne or if I got lucky. I will be hatching some Champagnes soon, so that should let me know the extent of the wobbling in Champagnes. I know the Super Sable is supposedly a wobbler. I would not breed Sables, Spiders or Champagnes together. The Super Champagne seems to be a lethal Super.

Dave

If you like the spider pattern but worry about wobble(I don't) then try Womas. They are IMO the closest thing to a spider

I was under the impression that Womas wobbled as well? Maybe I heard that somewhere or I just came up with it on my own...

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

In my dumb down understanding, epigenetics and multiple loci basically? Wouldn't it be reasonable to think at some point, it could be selectively reduced to some extent? I mean I understand there are even factors outside of genetics that can even effect genetics, asplundii we have talked enough were I think you know what I understand. I see there is an accepted word of mouth that it is completely random because "many have tried." There seems to be very little data on what the many tired to do exactly. I mean I'm guilty of the just accept it, everyone says so. Now I am questioning it, is it really even correct to say It can't be reduced? Obviously the things effecting it could just be too complex and appear random, but what do we really have to go on to say random, end story?

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Hey OWAL,

Not really epigenetics or multiple loci as those are specific interactions and this is more a matter of general interactions. Let me try explaining by an analogy;

You are standing on a third floor balcony with two water balloons, one is filled with red paint and one is filled with yellow paint, and you want to drop them to make mark on the pavement that is 1.5m long in the pattern 0.5m red/0.5m orange/0.5m yellow. What are the odds you can do that exactly perfect every single time? You cannot. You probably cannot even do it perfect once. Now ask yourself why. Maybe you mixed your paints slightly differently from one another... Maybe you filled the balloons with different volumes... Maybe the rubber in one balloon is slightly different than the rubber in the other causing it to pop differently... Maybe you dropped one balloon a half a second before the other... Maybe there was a gust of wind... Maybe a car drove by and hit the balloons... All these and more, factors you cannot control, are going to influence the final outcome. In the end you will still end up with a red/orange/yellow mark on the ground, but the odds are phenomenally against you that it will be the perfectly lined up one you wanted. And even if you did manage to get that mark once, making it a second time would be a feat.

It is the same with Spider and wobble. There are so many variables that the odds of hitting the perfect balance of them is closer to the none side of slim and none. And doing it repeatably is wholly improbable

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Originally Posted by West Coast Jungle

If you like the spider pattern but worry about wobble(I don't) then try Womas. They are IMO the closest thing to a spider

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Originally Posted by Inarikins

I was under the impression that Womas wobbled as well? Maybe I heard that somewhere or I just came up with it on my own...

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Inarikins is correct, Womas also show wobble, though to a lesser degree than Spiders. But it is certainly there in the morph

Actually, there might be a cure for spider wobble when bred to another gene.....

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Originally Posted by majorleaguereptiles

Actually, there might be a cure for spider wobble when bred to another gene.....

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Which gene we talkin about...

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Originally Posted by Mrl249

Which gene we talkin about...

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Blackhead...

Currently there is a group of blackhead spiders, roughly close to 15 or more.. All do not exhibit wobble, head tilt, lean... I've done neurological tests on BH Spiders vs. Spiders and other spider combos that test their motor skills. Feeding reaction, breeding reaction, upside down response, nose tap response, tall tank activity when searching for food. I've really been able to get a wobble response from every spider and spider combo Ive personally seen. Yet, there is a remarkable difference with the blackhead spider. Not to mention the Blackhead Spider looks nothing like a blackhead or a spider. Almost looks normal.... Very normal that Ralph sold one as a Normal... True story.. I referred to this in the past almost acts like a "cure" gene. As if it completes the spider...

Now what makes it even more interesting, so far there have been 6 clutches from a BH spider and the genes acts allelic with each other... Meaning no normals were produced and you either get blackheads or spiders. Ralph Davis has hatched two BH Spider clutches this year and it has held true still....

I know this is something that probably deserves its own thread, but it's still sort of early too hoot and hollar, but it definitely has me intrigued. I have a breeder blackhead spider male so I should find out more information on the matter soon.

A real breakthrough? Possibly...

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Originally Posted by majorleaguereptiles

Actually, there might be a cure for spider wobble when bred to another gene.....

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i'd like to know this as well. and i'm sure most everyone else would. unless it's a new gene that's under wraps i see no reason to keep this secret.. and if there is, why tease us?? ;)

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Originally Posted by TheSnakeGeek

i'd like to know this as well. and i'm sure most everyone else would. unless it's a new gene that's under wraps i see no reason to keep this secret.. and if there is, why tease us?? ;)

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responded before your post. so now irrelevant. ^^

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Originally Posted by majorleaguereptiles

Actually, there might be a cure for spider wobble when bred to another gene.....

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How is that even possible? Curing the effects of one mutation by adding another mutation doesn't seem logical, do they share the same locus? How would that even work?


Edit: looks like you answered my question before I even posted. Sounds like they DO share the same locus. how is the wobble on spiders from the blackhead/spider sires?

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Originally Posted by MarkS

How is that even possible? Curing the effects of one mutation by adding another mutation doesn't seem logical, do they share the same locus? How would that even work?

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Honestly, how it works or why, I really don't have an answer. I would think it would be entirely impossible... I'm still skeptical, only sharing what I know...

And yes, what I said referred the two genes being in the same gene locus... How? Why? I don't know.

i do remember reading somewhere that blackhead and spider acted as a super.. cant remember where.. but if it "cures" the wobble, that is very interesting.. although even if it does "cure" the wobble, if the snake looks normal it's kind of useless to those in love with the spider pattern. interesting nonetheless.

Even if BH spiders get rid of the neuro issue this wouldnt solve the problem in a way most breeders would like it to right? I think most folks are hoping for the phenotype (spider) but without the wobble and unless I'm wrong that theory doesn't solve that problem. It is still pretty interesting on the scientific side of things though for sure.

Yeah, I mean a blackhead spider looks pretty normal but I can tell you the Bh bee is AMAZING... So it's still pretty neat... Bh spiders look sorta like Calicos with age... Pretty weird..

I have other theories....

One thing to think even further about, the one blackhead calico that was made, died....

So, a Bh spider looks like a calico, and maybe allelic, then Bh calico might be lethal?

I've found certain lines of calico to be much weaker/problematic than others...

It really makes me wonder how these genes might have originated in the wild...

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Originally Posted by majorleaguereptiles

I've found certain lines of calico to be much weaker/problematic than others...

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Just for my own edifacition, Which lines and how many generations of breeding have you used to arive at this conclusion. I only ask because I have a couple of different lines I'm working with and would like to hear how you found this, and what you mean by "weaker".

Wow, thanks for the info, very interesting. Wonder if spider and black head could be one extra and one less copy of some encoding so the black head spider has the net same number of copies as a normal just distributed a bit different?

Huh... that's craziness. I'm very glad I read through this thread. I'll be looking forward to more info on this. You *should* start a thread!

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