Who says they don't appreciate height?!

So I'm a new BP keeper and my first set up is meant to be something of a display. I realize that this is more for me than the snake, but the tank takes up a fair amount of space right under my TV. As such, I went with an aquarium rather than a box type setup. At first I had humidity issues, but as you can see from the picture (which is about 10 minutes after an auto-spray) I seem to have beaten that issue. I actually need to lower it a little now.

AAAAANYWAY, I came home to my gorgeous little mimosa hanging out right on top of the driftwood (she was kind enough to find her way up there without knocking off any of the unsecured air plants I stuck in there randomly) and she's still there! She's only been in the tank since thursday, and was sweaterbox raised, so I'm amazed she's taking to her environment so well. Maybe she can watch the cats pass by better from up there. What makes it even cooler is that she was hanging out with the lights on, right in the middle of the tank in plain sight. It's like she knew I wanted to display her! Photo doesn't even show how purple her markings are (sorry crappy phone!) but she's banana-yellow.:banana:

Anyway, the pics really don't do her justice. Great snake, super thrilled. Now we'll see how feeding goes, haha. Live to frozen won't be fun. Sorry for the rant! I'm excited! Here's the pic!

https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/?ui...cal0&safe=1&zw


FTS, so you can see how high she is: (will black out background and remove some wires when they're not necessary anymore)

https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/?ui...cs50&safe=1&zw

Only reason a BP will climb is to get to heat or to escape heat. I can't see the pics of your setup, but thought I'd share that fact.

Pictures aren't showing up for me, either.

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Originally Posted by majorleaguereptiles

Only reason a BP will climb is to get to heat or to escape heat. I can't see the pics of your setup, but thought I'd share that fact.

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Erm.. No.
Ball pythons can climb and whatnot in the wild. Theyll catch birds and whatnot too.

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Originally Posted by Bobbafett

Erm.. No.
Ball pythons can climb and whatnot in the wild. Theyll catch birds and whatnot too.

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Please email me your African experiences. Very curious about your arboreal bird eating ball pythons.

Seriously?
Skips mentioned it multiple times in various threads.

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Originally Posted by majorleaguereptiles

Please email me your African experiences. Very curious about your arboreal bird eating ball pythons.

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I've heard about it too.
They're not arboreal by any means, but they do occasionally climb trees for food.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bobbafett

Seriously?
Skips mentioned it multiple times in various threads.

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I don't know Skips? Please have them email me his experience. As I said, if a snake were to climb in the wild, it would be temperature related. Curious who said they climb trees for food and who has actual experience in the bush to share with me or if this was just an assumption. Ball pythons actual act the exact opposite when searching for food in the wild since their primary food source is underground.

http://www.worldofballpythons.com/ar...-ball-pythons/
http://www.reptilechannel.com/snakes...t-feeding.aspx

I know it's possible, but picturing any of my ball pythons climbing a tree has me chuckling to myself. Maybe it's just because I've gotten used to the grace my carpet python shows when using me as a tree... reinforced by watching so many BPs just flop of of anything remotely vertical.

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Originally Posted by Bobbafett

http://www.worldofballpythons.com/ar...-ball-pythons/
http://www.reptilechannel.com/snakes...t-feeding.aspx

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So your argument is that bps in captivity are climbing logs bc they are looking for a bird to eat?

I'm not exactly sure where youre getting that idea.

A ball python perched in an aquarium is temperature based. Nothing is going to change my opinion on that matter.

They do occasionally eat a bird that falls to the floor, as a BP will eat anything it needs to.

Next time I'm in Africa, I'll try to find a tree dwelling ball python. Fingers crossed.

Skips = Skiploader

I think what Bobba is trying to say is that it's not totally abnormal for a captive snake to climb (outside of temp reasons) since it does occur in the wild...

Lol satomi, but apparently I must know nothing.

I will personally ask a wildlife and forestry official from Africa tomorrow for his opinion on this matter. Someone who actually deals with the bush on a regular basis.

Ball pythons are obviously fully capable of climbing, but I firmly believe it would due to dire circumstances. Which is certainly avoidable in captivity. If you believe your perched ball pythons are because they want to show you how pretty they are, or to watch stuff outside their tank, I'm just stating I disagree and believe it's husbandry related. The thousands and thousands found in the wild aren't found nesting in a tree or climbing for that matter.

My boy loves his tree branch. His second to last feeding he decided he wanted to eat in the tree. He climbed up it and would not come down. The first mouse was eaten on the ground because he lunged off the tree branch. The second he would not come down for and ate it upsidedown hanging from the branch. He really loves it. It has a lower area where it's only an inch above the ground and I often catch him stretched out there with his tail wrapped around the top of the perch area. I don't think it has anything to do with the heat. It seems to be his lookout post. I often catch him starting at whatever I'm doing from there.

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Originally Posted by Marrissa

My boy loves his tree branch. His second to last feeding he decided he wanted to eat in the tree. He climbed up it and would not come down. The first mouse was eaten on the ground because he lunged off the tree branch. The second he would not come down for and ate it upsidedown hanging from the branch. He really loves it. It has a lower area where it's only an inch above the ground and I often catch him stretched out there with his tail wrapped around the top of the perch area. I don't think it has anything to do with the heat. It seems to be his lookout post. I often catch him starting at whatever I'm doing from there.

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My pewter lays in wait at the top of the top on the ledge for the handles and will eat up there sometimes to. I'd have to say it wouldn't and doesn't surprise me they do it in the wild..

My old Bp absolutely loved his branch:
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/03/26/8e6ajy5u.jpg
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/03/26/ytuhevum.jpg
That was the day I got him.

And he'd still climb once he was in his custom xpvc
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/03/26/puqa7eru.jpg

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Originally Posted by Bobbafett

My old Bp absolutely loved his branch:
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/03/26/8e6ajy5u.jpg
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/03/26/ytuhevum.jpg
That was the day I got him.

And he'd still climb once he was in his custom xpvc
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/03/26/puqa7eru.jpg

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Well you know, some balls just want to be GTP's :rolleyes: lol

I do love seeing pictures of them climbing though, especially when they just rest there like "yeah..."

He liked to pretend to be arboreal. Once he fell off of it and boy was that hilarious! Ahaha

Brent, if you would like me to forward you the study in which bobba is referring to (where skip references his claims from) I would be more than happy to. That being said, I agree that the reasoning behind bps in captivity is more likely due to husbandry, security, or a similar reason, rather than vantage point or "watching us". Usually you see the arboreal actions more at a younger age, rather than adults (this also lines up with said study, as it shows a significant difference for snakes under 70cm in diet. Showing those preying almost exclusively on nesting/immature birds)

It's a natural tendency for us to anthropomorphisize our pets. There's nothing wrong with that persay, but I do understand where you're coming from.

In short, no, it doesn't mean that the balls are looking for birds, or perching for our pleasure/their entertainment. But as long as your husbandry is correct, and you are offering the correct temperatures and hides, I see no reason why it should throw a red flag.

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Originally Posted by RoseyReps

Brent, if you would like me to forward you the study in which bobba is referring to (where skip references his claims from) I would be more than happy to. That being said, I agree that the reasoning behind bps in captivity is more likely due to husbandry, security, or a similar reason, rather than vantage point or "watching us". Usually you see the arboreal actions more at a younger age, rather than adults (this also lines up with said study, as it shows a significant difference for snakes under 70cm in diet. Showing those preying almost exclusively on nesting/immature birds)

It's a natural tendency for us to anthropomorphisize our pets. There's nothing wrong with that persay, but I do understand where you're coming from.

In short, no, it doesn't mean that the balls are looking for birds, or perching for our pleasure/their entertainment. But as long as your husbandry is correct, and you are offering the correct temperatures and hides, I see no reason why it should throw a red flag.

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Yes please forward the study to me to info@majorleaguereptiles.com. Does this study come with locale based information in Africa?

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Originally Posted by majorleaguereptiles

Yes please forward the study to me to info@majorleaguereptiles.com. Does this study come with locale based information in Africa?

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Yes, I'll send it over.

I have a branch in each of my boaphiles for the balls. Three of the six use them to hang out on frequently and seem to enjoy snatching up a rodent from above and eating it in the branch. Also make good shed catchers.
I remember reading somewhere that baby balls ate whatever they could catch, baby birds and even lizard.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by majorleaguereptiles

I don't know Skips? Please have them email me his experience. As I said, if a snake were to climb in the wild, it would be temperature related. Curious who said they climb trees for food and who has actual experience in the bush to share with me or if this was just an assumption. Ball pythons actual act the exact opposite when searching for food in the wild since their primary food source is underground.

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How does that foot of yours taste? Does it taste better than a plate of crow?

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/1...386744#preview

Toodles,

Skip

Quote:

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Originally Posted by majorleaguereptiles

So your argument is that bps in captivity are climbing logs bc they are looking for a bird to eat?

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I never saw Bobbafett stating that the reason Ball Pythons climb logs in their terrarium is because they are searching for birds to eat. I'm fairly certain that she corrected your "fact," where you stated "the only reason a BP will climb is to get to heat or to escape heat . . . thought I'd share that fact," by interjecting that Ball Pythons are capable of climbing in the wild to search for prey, specifically birds in this case.

I didn't see the need for you to be quite so condescending in your initial responses to her (at least that is the tone I picked up), and hope the study provided by Skip can clarify your understanding of her statements. She never stated that it was common, nor did she state food was the primary reason for this particular snake to be climbing; Bobba merely corrected your definite statement.

I don't disagree that climbing in captivity is most likely due to temperature, BUT that doesn't mean her statement was false in any way. I also understand that in a later post you attempted to correct yourself and state that you believe it would only occur during dire circumstances, but please don't post something as fact then berate someone for opposing you when your post is the one providing inaccurate information you are claiming as fact. And please, next time you're in Africa . . .

Wasn't expecting this to turn into such a debate!

Pretty sure the temperatures are fine. It was probably right about 86 where she was hanging out, maybe slightly cooler than the ground with the heat pad, but if she wanted she could easily thermoregulate by moving to the other side of the tank. At one point she was sort of hovering her head in the direction of the heating element, but most of where she was hanging out was an area that would pretty much have an average tank temperature, so not really much different from most places.

And there are like 10 different potential hides in there, so there's no lack of that. She's in one now looking pretty normal.

The humidity was a bit high, so maybe it was that?

And regardless of anthropomorphism (no I don't seriously think the snake wanted to be seen--I did say "almost like") I don't think it's unrealistic that if it were in a new environment, exposed to a lot of confusing stimulus, it might look for a place to survey its surroundings from.

First, I never meant to be condescending and I apologize if I made a strong statement. I simply stated ball pythons perched on a log in captivity are doing so to escape temperature confines. I still believe that, and a study on a sample of 50 ball pythons in the mangroves of southeast Nigeria doesn't change that. But I do intend to research arboreal ball pythons more and talk to people who do find these on a daily basis. From my experience and talking to many people who have searched for ball pythons for years in the bush, it never consisted of finding tree dwelling ball pythons, much as the study suggests. Although, I do believe it could be locale based and has me curious to find out more.

Ive read a caresheet or two that states ball pythons will climb small bushes to search for chicks in nests. Yes my ball python will climb his branch and plants to get closer to the lamp.. But also when the lights go off at night he is always exploring his cage and climbing anything he can because he is hungry.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

How does that foot of yours taste? Does it taste better than a plate of crow?

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/1...386744#preview

Toodles,

Skip

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It doesn't say in that study they climbed trees to get the birds. It just says they found birds in their stomach. They collected the snakes from traps on the ground. It also said only 11males and 13females (I think those were the numbers) had prey items in them. Thats a pretty small sample size imo. I'd still like to see a picture or video of a ball python climbing a tree to get a bird.

It also says royal pythons found "in the rainforests of south eastern nigeria". Now im no expert on nigeria but when i hear rainforest i think of like the Amazon Rainforest. Very humid. Thats not a ball pythons natural habitat really. From what I know (which isn't much compared to some of you guys who have been playing the game much longer) they like a hot spot and a cool spot and the humidity around 50%-60%. A rainforest, shooting from the hip, probably has an average humidity of 80%-90%.

Idk, I just find that to be a weak study with not a big enough sample size. I also find it fishy that they're catching ball pythons in a rainforest. Now, prove me wrong, Skip... ;)

Brant, it does seem to be a locale thing. Most of the areas we are used to hearing ball pythons coming from are grass lands. Little if any trees are there. I'm thinking this may be a fringe environment where they are located (in the study) and not the norm.

Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk 2

People looking to catch ball pythons would be more likely to look in burrows, often during the day..... To increase chances of locating a mostly nocturnal species with minimum effort. So as far as those people are concerned BP's only live in holes in the ground and termite mounds etc.
Gathering ball pythons is not necessarily an indication of any indepth understanding of their behaviour, just understanding of a small part of it.
Saying they won't climb except for thermo-regulation is like claiming they "periscope" because their heads are cold/hot.
That these animals use elevation to examine surroundings or obtain food should be no surprise.
With their body type I doubt anyone is making a claim that balls are even near semi-arboreal, just that the can and will climb for reasons which may escape us.

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Originally Posted by Starsnake

Brant, it does seem to be a locale thing. Most of the areas we are used to hearing ball pythons coming from are grass lands. Little if any trees are there. I'm thinking this may be a fringe environment where they are located (in the study) and not the norm.

Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk 2

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x2 It must be on the very outskirts of the rainforest. Im thinking if I kept my ball at 80-90% humidity i'd be scheduling a vet visit for an RI very soon. Maybe not though, waiting on skip to respond lol...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Raven01

That these animals use elevation to examine surroundings or obtain food should be no surprise.
With their body type I doubt anyone is making a claim that balls are even near semi-arboreal, just that the can and will climb for reasons which may escape us.

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Examine their surroundings? Um, no lol. Their vision isn't that good.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dkspftw

Wasn't expecting this to turn into such a debate!

Pretty sure the temperatures are fine. It was probably right about 86 where she was hanging out, maybe slightly cooler than the ground with the heat pad, but if she wanted she could easily thermoregulate by moving to the other side of the tank. At one point she was sort of hovering her head in the direction of the heating element, but most of where she was hanging out was an area that would pretty much have an average tank temperature, so not really much different from most places.

And there are like 10 different potential hides in there, so there's no lack of that. She's in one now looking pretty normal.

The humidity was a bit high, so maybe it was that?

And regardless of anthropomorphism (no I don't seriously think the snake wanted to be seen--I did say "almost like") I don't think it's unrealistic that if it were in a new environment, exposed to a lot of confusing stimulus, it might look for a place to survey its surroundings from.

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We apparently live in a world of absolutes - did you not get the mem?. There is no way on God's green earth that a ball python would climb a branch unless it was for one specific reason and one reason only. Without knowing one thing about you or your snake I can account for the behavior of that snake. Remember - think in terms of absolutes!

Haven't you learned a darn thing? Only 50 pythons in one area of Nigeria fluctuate from this norm - or so claim those who spend their lives with their heads in warm holes.

Ball pythons live in tupperware drawers in the wild - preferable 41 or 28 quart with undertank heaters set to precisely 88 to 91 degrees. They feed every 7 days on rodents and rodents only. This talk of tree climbing, bird hunting ball pythons is obviously an anomaly and once we talk to the real experts, the record will be set straight.

Ball pythons live in a large range. The Sub Saharan of Africa encompasses flat plains, low hills and scrub, high plains, forested plateau regions and mountainous terrain. The climate ranges from hot and dry to tropical hot and humid. All of these different factors are found relatively close together. Even in Ghana in which the Volta Basin composes most of its central area. There are ball pythons that live in the forests, hills, and scrub plains. In hot dry areas as well as hot and humid tropical areas.


Benin; Cameroon; Central African Republic; Congo, The Democratic Republic of the; Côte d'Ivoire; Gambia; Ghana; Guinea; Guinea-Bissau; Liberia; Mali; Niger; Nigeria; Senegal; Sierra Leone; Sudan; Togo; Uganda

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Originally Posted by Mike41793

Examine their surroundings? Um, no lol. Their vision isn't that good.

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They have other sensory organs on their heads.
Mine can't be the only ones that do a fair bit of tongue flicking when periscoping can they?
And, to be honest I have absolutely no idea on how effective at a given range their heat pits are. Obviously, good enough to hunt with at close range with poor vision and poor light. But, I can't make an reasonable guess on if they may or may not work over distances that benefit from that behaviour.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mike41793

It doesn't say in that study they climbed trees to get the birds. It just says they found birds in their stomach. They collected the snakes from traps on the ground. It also said only 11males and 13females (I think those were the numbers) had prey items in them. Thats a pretty small sample size imo. I'd still like to see a picture or video of a ball python climbing a tree to get a bird.

It also says royal pythons found "in the rainforests of south eastern nigeria". Now im no expert on nigeria but when i hear rainforest i think of like the Amazon Rainforest. Very humid. Thats not a ball pythons natural habitat really. From what I know (which isn't much compared to some of you guys who have been playing the game much longer) they like a hot spot and a cool spot and the humidity around 50%-60%. A rainforest, shooting from the hip, probably has an average humidity of 80%-90%.

Idk, I just find that to be a weak study with not a big enough sample size. I also find it fishy that they're catching ball pythons in a rainforest. Now, prove me wrong, Skip... ;)

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Read the paper again Young Master Post Whore. They discuss observed climbing behavior. I'd point out the sentence to you but I think reading the paper again may do you some good.;)

Many of you are assuming this is the only study of it's type out there. Wouldn't it be a hoot if you were wrong?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

Ball pythons live in a large range. The Sub Saharan of Africa encompasses flat plains, low hills and scrub, high plains, forested plateau regions and mountainous terrain. The climate ranges from hot and dry to tropical hot and humid. All of these different factors are found relatively close together. Even in Ghana in which the Volta Basin composes most of its central area. There are ball pythons that live in the forests, hills, and scrub plains. In hot dry areas as well as hot and humid tropical areas.

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Oh noes!

Not more facts!

Make it stop!

The more and more ball pythons I get and the more I see (I've seen as many as 20,000 ball pythons at one time in rack systems), with temperatures ranging from 86 on the hot side and 80 on the cool side, I would say 90% or more rest on the cool side. This has me believe most captive temperatures are actually warmer than they probably need to be on a given basis. I do believe ball pythons need access to heat for certain reasons, and its probably better to air on the safe side when people cant regulate room temperatures to avoid the cold. As I said before, if one is perched in a log in a aquarium, I really believe it's either to escape the heat of a heat pad or to gain heat from a heat lamp. I don't think they are scoping out their surroundings or hoping a bird comes by. I just don't but I'm definitely going to ask people who have caught thousands of ball pythons to share any info on arboreal bps.

The geographical range of ball pythons. :D

http://ball-pythons.net/gallery/file...hon_region.jpg

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

Read the paper again Young Master Post Whore. They discuss observed climbing behavior. I'd point out the sentence to you but I think reading the paper again may do you some good.;)

Many of you are assuming this is the only study of it's type out there. Wouldn't it be a hoot if you were wrong?

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My iphone was bugging out and not loading the last page. Yes, i see where it said it now.

I find this to be pretty interesting. Ball pythons being found in "one of the wettest areas in the world". So if they can survive there, that tells me that scale rot and RI's are over dramatized by a lot of keepers. Possibly to just scare new owners or because they really don't know the hardiness of the snakes? Though I'm sure the immune systems of the ball pythons we keep aren't quite as strong as the wild ones, so maybe not.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

The geographical range of ball pythons. :D

http://ball-pythons.net/gallery/file...hon_region.jpg

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Crazy to think only 3 of those countries routinely export ball pythons too. So many untouched specimens out there. Maybe some are truly arboreal as I have firmly argued. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, but I would love to see more data if Skiploader has more studies to share. This is always a learning experience!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by majorleaguereptiles

Crazy to think only 3 of those countries routinely export ball pythons too. So many untouched specimens out there. Maybe some are truly arboreal as I have firmly argued. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, but I would love to see more data if Skiploader has more studies to share. This is always a learning experience!

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x2! I'm loving this thread.

I would think Ball pythons living in a tropical rainforest would be really different than the balls living in the savannah/scrub lands of ghana/benin/togo. If you asked me an hour ago if ball pythons could live in a swampy rainforest i would have said no. Limited access to rodent dens, RI's due to high humidity, scale rot from being kept too wet.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mike41793

My iphone was bugging out and not loading the last page. Yes, i see where it said it now.

I find this to be pretty interesting. Ball pythons being found in "one of the wettest areas in the world". So if they can survive there, that tells me that scale rot and RI's are over dramatized by a lot of keepers. Possibly to just scare new owners or because they really don't know the hardiness of the snakes? Though I'm sure the immune systems of the ball pythons we keep aren't quite as strong as the wild ones, so maybe not.

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Belly/scale rot and RI's are serious issues. Even though they may live in tropical areas they can NOT stay in wet living conditions. Living in confined dirty tubs/tanks can and will cause detrimental issues. It is not a dramatization.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

Belly/scale rot and RI's are serious issues. Even though they may live in tropical areas they can NOT stay in wet living conditions. Living in confined dirty tubs/tanks can and will cause detrimental issues. It is not a dramatization.

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Don't worry, I'm not drowning them or anything lol. I was just raising a point. A dirty wet tub is different from a clean wet tub though, right? How do they stay dry in a rainforest?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mike41793

x2! I'm loving this thread.

I would think Ball pythons living in a tropical rainforest would be really different than the balls living in the savannah/scrub lands of ghana/benin/togo.

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Ghana, Benin, and Togo are not just scrub lands. They are composed of mountainous ranges, forests, hills and scrub plains.

Ghana alone has 4 different areas: The low plains, Ashanti uplands, Volta basin and the high plains.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mike41793

Don't worry, I'm not drowning them or anything lol. I was just raising a point. A dirty wet tub is different from a clean wet tub though, right? How do they stay dry in a rainforest?

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They dont live in swamps. lol

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

They dont live in swamps. lol

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Thats not what that study says.