worst bug eyes i've ever seen

http://fire-ballreptiles.com/images/...terfemale1.JPG

YIKES

thats a good reason to not breed butter to butter!

That is disturbing.
Also the reason I'm going w/ a lesserxmojo breeding. I wonder if the bug eyes impact vision?

I don't see the pic? :confused:

sent from my EVO

Is this also a problem when breeding lesser x lesser?

Yikes! That poor baby! :(

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Originally Posted by kklepac

Is this also a problem when breeding lesser x lesser?

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Yes. That's why people tend to cross Butter/LesserxMojave

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Originally Posted by jbean7916

I don't see the pic? :confused:

sent from my EVO

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http://fire-ballreptiles.com/images/...terfemale1.JPG

Poor little guy. :/ looks uncomfortable.

Just curious do they grow into the eyes? If not, is there a way to fix them? I've never seen that before o_o

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Originally Posted by Solarsoldier001

Just curious do they grow into the eyes? If not, is there a way to fix them? I've never seen that before o_o

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I've never seen an adult w/ bug eyes, but I assume that it's permanent. And there is no way to fix them.
It's a genetic defect that is linked to BELs.
It's like how Super Cinnys/Super Black Pastels can get duck billed faces.

Also what's up with the tail... Seems like the tip is missing. I really feel bad for that poor snake :(

I am curious as to how common bug eyes really are. I've only ever seen a few. Makes you wonder if people cull them or if they really aren't too prevalent. :weirdface

I feel bad for the little guy, too, but I have to say...haha, that looks funny--like it's a cartoon surprise face...

I wasn't aware of the bug-eye problem with Lesser x Lesser (Which is the same as saying Butter x Butter, and Lesser x Butter...).

At the Pomona show a couple of months ago every Super Lesser I saw was bug eyed and that was probably 4. None of them were to this degree though.

We bred Lesser X Butter last season and produced 1.2 BEL's, no bug eye's but one female ended up being blind.
The other 2 are nice examples of pure white BEL's.
http://i968.photobucket.com/albums/a...s/_RAP4660.jpg

What i dont like is selling a bug eyed snake and asking that much for it. Its genetically flawed and not worth market value.

I'll buy whats the cost. I think it looks kinda of cute actually

He's adorable but price for the genetics is fair.
I think
But priced because its an abnormality that happens is kinda unfair but legitimate.
I'd still pay market price as long as he could still see and it doesn't affect his well being.
I've heard of some balls being born like this because they stuck just the tips of their heads out and that resulted in the blood flow (yada yada yada) something something and they grow outta it. But Idk about bels seeing as I have no experience with them YET.
But hope he is OK. Still wouldn't discourage a buyer just cuz he's a bugga boo.
:-) but I love them no matter how they come out.


Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by apple2

Also what's up with the tail... Seems like the tip is missing.

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The tail is just curled back under the substrate.

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Originally Posted by crepers86

I'll buy whats the cost. I think it looks kinda of cute actually

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Over $1k.

Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk

This snake is genetically Flawed and will pass on the bug eyes if bred. Why pay 1300$ for a genetically flawed morph when you can get perfect ones no flaws what so ever and breed it.


Regardless if its cute or not, It should not be at market value.

Is bug-eyes tied directly to the Lesser Platinum gene? If it is, then the snake is not genetically flawed at all.

If bug-eyes is caused by an additional recessive gene that's present in Lesser Platinum lines, you would expect to see normal snakes from Lesser clutches throwing bug-eye offspring as well.

Unless this gene reacts with something in the lesser gene to produce bug eyes--or reacts only when the lesser gene is doubled, to produce this effect.

I think it's HIGHLY premature to call this a genetic flaw, though, until further research is done. It's like saying the spider wobble is a genetic flaw in spiders--it's not, it's part of the spider gene itself and cannot be bred out. (You could call the spider gene itself the flaw, but most of us like them anyhow).

So, the question becomes, is the bug-eyes caused by an additional gene reacting to lesser platinum, or the SAME gene as lesser platinum. It's a crucial difference.

Does the problem cause any actual issues, or it is purely cosmetic?

More like awesome bug eyes, if it doesn't effect the snakes vision and he's happy and healthy I say the eyes look cool and unique

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Originally Posted by RichsBallPythons

This snake is genetically Flawed and will pass on the bug eyes if bred. Why pay 1300$ for a genetically flawed morph when you can get perfect ones no flaws what so ever and breed it.


Regardless if its cute or not, It should not be at market value.

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Are bug eyes a passable trait, or are they a flaw within the super lesser/butter only? While I understand where you're coming from, I don't understand why this argument presents itself when it comes to bug eyes, kinks, duck bills, yet spider wobbles(a genetic flaw) have sold fine for years.

I have seen bug eyes from lesser clutches where normals and lessers had the bug eyes.

To say the bug eyes are acceptable but then a kink isnt dont sound right. Theres kinks out there and dont harm the snakes that will live well. But if someone sells one their completely market way down not kept at top dollar. I would never breed this animal in the likes of producing more bug eyes, The same you wouldnt breed a kinked snake as well

Does mojo x mojo cause bug eyes?

mojo x mojo does not, Strictly the butter/lesser gene that does so.

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

Is bug-eyes tied directly to the Lesser Platinum gene? If it is, then the snake is not genetically flawed at all.

If bug-eyes is caused by an additional recessive gene that's present in Lesser Platinum lines, you would expect to see normal snakes from Lesser clutches throwing bug-eye offspring as well.

Unless this gene reacts with something in the lesser gene to produce bug eyes--or reacts only when the lesser gene is doubled, to produce this effect.

I think it's HIGHLY premature to call this a genetic flaw, though, until further research is done. It's like saying the spider wobble is a genetic flaw in spiders--it's not, it's part of the spider gene itself and cannot be bred out. (You could call the spider gene itself the flaw, but most of us like them anyhow).

So, the question becomes, is the bug-eyes caused by an additional gene reacting to lesser platinum, or the SAME gene as lesser platinum. It's a crucial difference.

Does the problem cause any actual issues, or it is purely cosmetic?

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Good questions.

I would imagine that the bug eyes only occur when the gene is doubled, which is why butterxbutter/lesserxlesser/lesserxbutter's have such a significant turn out... I'm not sure on the percentages, but no body really hears about mojavexmojave getting bug eyes.

I wonder if there are functional issues with the bug eyes as well.
I imagine that the ones up for sale are eating alight, so maybe it's just cosmetic? Either way, ball's don't really need eyesight to survive in captivity. Ben Siegel has an eyeless ball that eats and lives perfectly fine.

That's just my 2cents and opinion.

Show me a photo of a sub-adult or adult ball python with bug eyes. I am sure they grow into their bug eyes as adults. I have only been breeding for four years, and have never seen an adult with bug eyes.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by RichsBallPythons

This snake is genetically Flawed and will pass on the bug eyes if bred. Why pay 1300$ for a genetically flawed morph when you can get perfect ones no flaws what so ever and breed it.


Regardless if its cute or not, It should not be at market value.

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Of course, the unfortunate catch-22 is that as soon as it gets marked down, someone would buy it and brag about the great deal they got on their new breeder...

The bug eye is a know problem with the butter x butter cross, or atleast I thought people knew about it. They act normal, eat normal, poop normal, shed normal. You can get normal looking BELs out of the clutches and have a bug eye in the same clutch, similar to super cinnys with the duck bill.

As for another comment the tail is fine, it is tucked under the substrate.

I think a good point was brought up. Are there any bug eyed adults?

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Originally Posted by RichsBallPythons

I have seen bug eyes from lesser clutches where normals and lessers had the bug eyes.

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So, you're saying that some lesser pairings have produced bug-eyed normals? This DOES suggest a second, recessive gene is at work, which may be carried in lesser platinum lines.

Can anyone else who has done lesser X lesser or butter X butter pairings confirm that it's not just the BELs that have bug-eyes?

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Originally Posted by jinx667

I think a good point was brought up. Are there any bug eyed adults?

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The breeder of that specific animal replied in this post, hopefully he will tell us how it is doing now.

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Originally Posted by adamsky27

The breeder of that specific animal replied in this post, hopefully he will tell us how it is doing now.

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I am sure it is doing well. I was not asking if they make it to adult hood, rather do they grow in to the eyes and they are not noticeable as an adult.

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Originally Posted by jinx667

I am sure it is doing well. I was not asking if they make it to adult hood, rather do they grow in to the eyes and they are not noticeable as an adult.

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That is exactly what I meant...

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

So, you're saying that some lesser pairings have produced bug-eyed normals? This DOES suggest a second, recessive gene is at work, which may be carried in lesser platinum lines.

Can anyone else who has done lesser X lesser or butter X butter pairings confirm that it's not just the BELs that have bug-eyes?

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While only one clutch so far all my hatchlings came out perfect.

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Originally Posted by RichsBallPythons

This snake is genetically Flawed and will pass on the bug eyes if bred. Why pay 1300$ for a genetically flawed morph when you can get perfect ones no flaws what so ever and breed it.


Regardless if its cute or not, It should not be at market value.

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Do you have proof to back this up? I'm pretty sure it's hit or miss with the bug eyes.

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Originally Posted by Emilio

While only one clutch so far all my hatchlings came out perfect.

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That's evidence too, of course--if it's an additional gene, then not all lessers will carry it, since they're often pretty well outcrossed.

The thing that's odd is how infrequently it's reported, other than in the BEL morphs. If it were a separate recessive gene, it should be showing up elsewhere, too, by now.

Unless it is a gene that only expresses when paired with the Lesser/Butter genes?

I believe there is an issue with this in Lucy Rat snakes as well?

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Originally Posted by filly77

Does mojo x mojo cause bug eyes?

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I haven't seen bug eyes from Mojave x Mojave, but I have seen tiny eyes from Mojave x Mojave. Also have seen tiny eyes on a Hypo Super Mojave.

So butter x mojo should be ok?

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Originally Posted by DrDooLittle

So butter x mojo should be ok?

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So far yes did see a Het-russo x lesser bug eyed BEL in daytona though.:confused:

I was surprised to say the least.

i want to see these tiny eyes.

im curious about the tiny eyes as well, especially since im going to be breeding my super mojo het ghost to my mojo het ghost in the fall

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Originally Posted by jinx667

Unless it is a gene that only expresses when paired with the Lesser/Butter genes?

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Rich stated he's seen normals from Lesser X Lesser pairing that had bug eyes, which suggests that bug-eyes does not have to be paired with the Lesser gene to express, and that it's a separate genetic defect.

Can anyone else confirm? This is rather important...keeping track of bloodlines should allow bug-eyes to be bred out if it is s separate recessive gene.

It's possible Rich uncovered a rare recessive bug-eye gene that is actually not related to the typical lesser BEL bug eye problem, of course, if no one else has ever seen this happen. If so, then bug-eyed BELs probably don't have a genetic defect (in most cases), they're just expressing an issue with the morph itself.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

Rich stated he's seen normals from Lesser X Lesser pairing that had bug eyes, which suggests that bug-eyes does not have to be paired with the Lesser gene to express, and that it's a separate genetic defect.

Can anyone else confirm? This is rather important...keeping track of bloodlines should allow bug-eyes to be bred out if it is s separate recessive gene.

It's possible Rich uncovered a rare recessive bug-eye gene that is actually not related to the typical lesser BEL bug eye problem, of course, if no one else has ever seen this happen. If so, then bug-eyed BELs probably don't have a genetic defect (in most cases), they're just expressing an issue with the morph itself.

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Kinda how spiders have their wobble?

Personally I think it's like the spider wobble, they all have it to either a greater or lesser degree though many are not really noticeable (unless you compare them to a normal) and they all look better once the snakes head grows. Granted I haven't seen hundreds of Lucys, but that's just my observation. The only ones that I've personally seen that didn't seem to have the issue were on Russo white diamonds.

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Originally Posted by hypersomniacjoo

http://fire-ballreptiles.com/images/...terfemale1.JPG

YIKES

thats a good reason to not breed butter to butter!

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my pastel female has very big bug eyes they look like there gonna pop out of her head and shes almost to breeding size so i can just imagine how big they were when she was alittle baby

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Originally Posted by Caleyandanthony

my pastel female has very big bug eyes they look like there gonna pop out of her head and shes almost to breeding size so i can just imagine how big they were when she was alittle baby

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So does that mean its gotten better over the years?