What would you get if you had 10,to 12k to spend

What BASE morph(s) would you get if you had 10 to 12k to spend?

I think I would buy some gold.........;)

A bunch of morph genes that I liked/or like when added to other genes and create my own snakes. I don think I would pick just 1 snake unless you have no interest in breeding. In that case it would take about a month of narrowing down and switching my mind to decide on just 1 snake.

Edit: wow totaly misread that.

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Originally Posted by mpenny

What BASE morph(s) would you get if you had 10 to 12k to spend?

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I'm not really understanding your question. What do you mean by "base" morphs? If I was going to spend 10-12k on snakes I wouldn't buy single gene snakes. Also what other snakes do you have? Do you have racks incubators food supply? How about marketing? A website? If you you know all that stuff and I misunderstood your question, um get some orange dream clown desert yellow belly fire pastel butter pied stuff, to start.

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Originally Posted by LotsaBalls

I'm not really understanding your question. What do you mean by "base" morphs? If I was going to spend 10-12k on snakes I wouldn't buy single gene snakes. Also what other snakes do you have? Do you have racks incubators food supply? How about marketing? A website? If you you know all that stuff and I misunderstood your question, um get some orange dream clown desert yellow belly fire pastel butter pied stuff, to start.

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I agree, I'd get a cool clown project, pied project and prolly some enchi and desert stuff

I would buy a banana ball python :D

Well to answer th quesion this time I would get som 1.1 axanthics, 1.0 pied, 1.1 spider, 1.1 lesser, 0.2 normals, 0.1 pastel and more depending on the pr ices I could find. Oh and another albino but a male.

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Originally Posted by VEXER19

Well to answer th quesion this time I would get som 1.1 axanthics, 1.0 pied, 1.1 spider, 1.1 lesser, 0.2 normals, 0.1 pastel and more depending on the pr ices I could find. Oh and another albino but a male.

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I really want a true ghost at some point in my life.

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Originally Posted by Brandon Osborne

I think I would buy some gold.........;)

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Good idea! Way more valuable if your looking to make $$lol:)

oh man, that would buy so many snakes, if i had everything else set-up and ready to care for them all, it'd be a big list,
caramel albino, clown, orange ghost, pied, desert, mojave, super pastel, black pastel, butter, genetic stripe, spinner, calico, enchi, and a pair of papuan olive pythons. maybe a pair of scrub pythons if i could squeeze them in there

I already have a lot of small end snakes axanthics, desert, carmals, pieds etc. I am talking about high end morphs like bananas tri stripe etc.

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Originally Posted by mpenny

I already have a lot of small end snakes axanthics, desert, carmals, pieds etc. I am talking about high end morphs like bananas tri stripe etc.

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Are you talking like 1 snake or 2 to 3? Aren't bannanas like more than that? It depends on what you wanna do with it. Can you elaborate on your plans. Personally I would enjou creating high end morphs but if you its hard to say. Is it for breeding or just to have?

definitly a tri-stripe then, i love those things, or a coral glow

edit: a disco would be next also

Bananas are 12-15k for a female and 50-60k for a male because males are more rare for some genetic reason.

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Originally Posted by evan385

Bananas are 12-15k for a female and 50-60k for a male because males are more rare for some genetic reason.

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Is it because they are rare? I would think its because you can quickly create more bananas with a male (breeding to multiple females as soon as the male is 500g) while with a female you would only get one clutch after you waited 2 years for her to get to size.

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Originally Posted by Ezekiel285

Is it because they are rare? I would think its because you can quickly create more bananas with a male (breeding to multiple females as soon as the male is 500g) while with a female you would only get one clutch after you waited 2 years for her to get to size.

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With ball pythons, as far as i've seen, 90% of the time the female is more expensive. With bananas i've heard that it's because males are much more rare. NERD had a video about coral glows, stating that first gen coral glows only rarely throw a male. You could have 3-4 clutches from a first gen banana or coral glow and only get one or two males. Don't quote me on that 3-4 number I just know that males are rare with the first gen bananas and coral glows and you can have a few clutches with only one or two males.

On snakes-
A pair of Eastern Indigo.
A pair of SD Retics.

On bp's-
Bel

I'd find a way to come up with another 3k and get a pair of GHI's, unless you were able to find a single male GHI from somewhere...but good luck with that!

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Originally Posted by Ezekiel285

Is it because they are rare? I would think its because you can quickly create more bananas with a male (breeding to multiple females as soon as the male is 500g) while with a female you would only get one clutch after you waited 2 years for her to get to size.

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Originally Posted by evan385

With ball pythons, as far as i've seen, 90% of the time the female is more expensive. With bananas i've heard that it's because males are much more rare. NERD had a video about coral glows, stating that first gen coral glows only rarely throw a male. You could have 3-4 clutches from a first gen banana or coral glow and only get one or two males. Don't quote me on that 3-4 number I just know that males are rare with the first gen bananas and coral glows and you can have a few clutches with only one or two males.

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There is a genetic reason males are more expensive. They are harder to produce. Taking what was said directly from Kevins mouth, Females can produce males and females, the first males produced mostly females with the extremely rare male. The rare male produced by the first male produced would produce primarily males.

And to the original question, If I was dropping 12k on a single breeding project it would be desert ghost, GHI, Spark male and yb combo females.

I could drop 12k on investment bps relatively easy, lol

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Originally Posted by Brandon Osborne

I think I would buy some gold........

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Originally Posted by mkeller13

Good idea! Way more valuable if your looking to make $$lol:)

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You guys do know there are people out there who breed ball pythons for a living right?

Smart investments in ball pythons can definitely bring a much better return on investment than gold.

As for what I would do with the money, I would stock up on single gene, lower priced codom females, such as lessers, spiders, pinstripes and woma, throw in a few more pricy codom females, such as calicos, enchis and mystics. Then drop some good money on a couple nice males, like a tiger or a pastel champagne, or something else in the $3-5k range. I'd avoid single gene males unless they are rare mutations.

You could also throw in some recessives in the mix, but those projects take more time to be fruitful, and result in more non-visual but non-normal offspring.

with out a doupt a pair of Morelia boeleni.

http://www.pythons.co.uk/imgs/collection/boelens9.jpg

not only way cooler than any Ball IMO. but as an investment they would still be worth what you payed for them in 5 or 6 years unlike any bp morph.

I would get up on Jeremy Stone's Princess Diamond boa project and Jeff Ronne's Paradise boas for sure! :gj:

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Originally Posted by CapeFearConstrictors

Smart investments in ball pythons can definitely bring a much better return on investment than gold.

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I know that this is not what the question is or even in the spirit. But from an investment point of view this is crazy if I bought 10oz of gold Feb last year (13180$) and sold it in August (18897$) you are telling me you can do better after all the expenses and costs and LABOUR associated with breeding you can turn in 6 months and see a profit of 5717 in addition to the original investment (sorry 5617 paying labour rate to yourself and associated fees)? Breeding royals is absolutely rewarding and can turn a profit but it a long haul a LOT of work and in reality it takes 5 years for most to turn a profit and pay back wages if they ever do.

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Originally Posted by kitedemon

I know that this is not what the question is or even in the spirit. But from an investment point of view this is crazy if I bought 10oz of gold Feb last year (13180$) and sold it in August (18897$) you are telling me you can do better after all the expenses and costs and LABOUR associated with breeding you can turn in 6 months and see a profit of 5717 in addition to the original investment (sorry 5617 paying labour rate to yourself and associated fees)? Breeding royals is absolutely rewarding and can turn a profit but it a long haul a LOT of work and in reality it takes 5 years for most to turn a profit and pay back wages if they ever do.

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You're thinking short term. Sure you may turn a quicker profit in six months if you timed it perfectly. However, it's never as easy as it seems to time sales of stocks or commodities. Plus, in your example, once you sold the gold you're done. If you buy a high end male you may have many years of nice production and profit. It's not easy but I think you would do much better even in a couple years with more years of production ahead. And this isn't hypothetical, I've done it more then once...

I would get the stocking I should have in 2-3 years. It comes out to about $12,500 when all said and done

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I897 using Tapatalk

snakebytes did a really cool video on this subject :gj:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKJfxcnH-kM

2 racks, 2 incubators, and a male Ultramel.

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Originally Posted by cmack91

oh man, that would buy so many snakes, if i had everything else set-up and ready to care for them all, it'd be a big list,
caramel albino, clown, orange ghost, pied, desert, mojave, super pastel, black pastel, butter, genetic stripe, spinner, calico, enchi, and a pair of papuan olive pythons. maybe a pair of scrub pythons if i could squeeze them in there

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What you said....LOL

Champagnes, ghi's, or het highways.

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Originally Posted by kitedemon

I know that this is not what the question is or even in the spirit. But from an investment point of view this is crazy if I bought 10oz of gold Feb last year (13180$) and sold it in August (18897$) you are telling me you can do better after all the expenses and costs and LABOUR associated with breeding you can turn in 6 months and see a profit of 5717 in addition to the original investment (sorry 5617 paying labour rate to yourself and associated fees)? Breeding royals is absolutely rewarding and can turn a profit but it a long haul a LOT of work and in reality it takes 5 years for most to turn a profit and pay back wages if they ever do.

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Let's do a little math with co-doms. Let's say you buy a single gene codom male for $5,000 in 2011. You get him to 800g and breed him in the 2012 breeding season. He successfully breeds three females, giving you 18 eggs. Out of those 18 eggs, you get 9 of the codom mutation. Prices have dropped 30%, so each one is now only worth $3,500. You sell all 9 for that price and make $31,500. Even if you take out expenses, you've made $25,000 from your $5,000 investment in one season. Think gold will do that well?

In the 2013 season, you breed him again, this time he gets 5 females to give you a total of 30 eggs. You get 15 of the mutation, but prices have dropped to $2,400. You sell them all for a total of $36,000. That's an even better return than the previous year.

Let's figure out the labor now. In the above scenario, let's say it takes you three hours a week to maintain that collection of less than 10 snakes. So that's 156 hours for two years of work. That earns you over $300 per hour of work.

This isn't including mixing that gene with other genes to make even more valuable animals. I think you can see where this is going. I guarantee your $5,000 investment in gold won't net you over $50,000 in two years. There are very few investments that can do that. It's true that the ball python market can be volatile, and there are risks associated with working with live animals, but if you spend your money wisely, you can make a very good return on your investment.

If you buy pastels and spiders and expect to make your money back in a season or two, you're kidding yourself. But if you spend good money on good investments, seeing a return in a single season isn't out of the realm of possibility.

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Originally Posted by CapeFearConstrictors

Let's do a little math with co-doms. Let's say you buy a single gene codom male for $5,000 in 2011. You get him to 800g and breed him in the 2012 breeding season. He successfully breeds three females, giving you 18 eggs. Out of those 18 eggs, you get 9 of the codom mutation. Prices have dropped 30%, so each one is now only worth $3,500. You sell all 9 for that price and make $31,500. Even if you take out expenses, you've made $25,000 from your $5,000 investment in one season. Think gold will do that well?

In the 2013 season, you breed him again, this time he gets 5 females to give you a total of 30 eggs. You get 15 of the mutation, but prices have dropped to $2,400. You sell them all for a total of $36,000. That's an even better return than the previous year.

Let's figure out the labor now. In the above scenario, let's say it takes you three hours a week to maintain that collection of less than 10 snakes. So that's 156 hours for two years of work. That earns you over $300 per hour of work.

This isn't including mixing that gene with other genes to make even more valuable animals. I think you can see where this is going. I guarantee your $5,000 investment in gold won't net you over $50,000 in two years. There are very few investments that can do that. It's true that the ball python market can be volatile, and there are risks associated with working with live animals, but if you spend your money wisely, you can make a very good return on your investment.

If you buy pastels and spiders and expect to make your money back in a season or two, you're kidding yourself. But if you spend good money on good investments, seeing a return in a single season isn't out of the realm of possibility.

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"My boy is wicked smart!" -Good Will Hunting, haha

I'd buy a Generac standby generator so I'd never have to worry about extended power outages again. And if I had any money left I'd buy as many base morphs as I could starting with pastels and cinnies

Desert Ghost Stuff.

I was half-heartedly joking. But in reality, gold is the same price worldwide and keeps going up. With the world economy in the shape it's in today, I bet you would have a difficult time selling $5k animals quickly....much less $12k.

I'd still be tempted to spend a little if I had it....but no more than half. ;)

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Originally Posted by Brandon Osborne

I was half-heartedly joking. But in reality, gold is the same price worldwide and keeps going up. With the world economy in the shape it's in today, I bet you would have a difficult time selling $5k animals quickly....much less $12k.

I'd still be tempted to spend a little if I had it....but no more than half. ;)

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The Multi-thousands of dollars worth of snakes I've moved this year would disagree with you.

Adult super enchi 1.1
Adult caramel albino het OG 1.0
Adult Orange Hypo Het Caramel 0.1
hatchling pieds 1.1

that i think is about 10k and if i had 12 make that pieds black pastel or adult black pastel het pieds.

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Originally Posted by AaronP

The Multi-thousands of dollars worth of snakes I've moved this year would disagree with you.

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And I'm not arguing with you. I'm in the same boat. I still have a few nice animals for sale. :gj:

I see what you are saying but I also see holes in logic.

The biggest is one 5000$ snake does not breed alone. You need a female or male. Your figuring is off a single animal. The second flaw is labour investment return should not calculate labour as return but deductions. So lets start with 5200$ and you make 50000 in two years so that leaves 44800 then subtract labour say 50$ an hour @156 hours (7800) leaves 37000. Then subtract power, feed, substrate, cleaning and sundries say 225 per month (I think this is very low) then 5400 more gone leaves 31600. rent... the next big expense, say what in my area a 10x35 space with water hook up and bathroom is about 1200 a month, but lets say you find a basement somewhere or in a home, so 600 a month for that... so 14400 leaves 17200 profit in two years.

5200 in gold two years ago is 15112 today subtract the 100$ in labour and you have 15000 today. less the initial 5200 leaves you 9800$ with low risk and no effort. The difference is only 7400 give or take. If we figure only two years and add things like T-stats rack and tubs flex watt insurance ect. You can carve off a extra 2000-4000 quite fast.


If you are simply trying to make a buck there are easier ways to do so. But who breeds snakes just for money? Most have other reasons for doing so simple business math cannot account for. Yes there is more money in the long term but how many start with a modest investment and are millionaires in ten years of breeding?

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Originally Posted by kitedemon

I see what you are saying but I also see holes in logic.

The biggest is one 5000$ snake does not breed alone. You need a female or male. Your figuring is off a single animal. The second flaw is labour investment return should not calculate labour as return but deductions. So lets start with 5200$ and you make 50000 in two years so that leaves 44800 then subtract labour say 50$ an hour @156 hours (7800) leaves 37000. Then subtract power, feed, substrate, cleaning and sundries say 225 per month (I think this is very low) then 5400 more gone leaves 31600. rent... the next big expense, say what in my area a 10x35 space with water hook up and bathroom is about 1200 a month, but lets say you find a basement somewhere or in a home, so 600 a month for that... so 14400 leaves 17200 profit in two years.

5200 in gold two years ago is 15112 today subtract the 100$ in labour and you have 15000 today. less the initial 5200 leaves you 9800$ with low risk and no effort. The difference is only 7400 give or take. If we figure only two years and add things like T-stats rack and tubs flex watt insurance ect. You can carve off a extra 2000-4000 quite fast.


If you are simply trying to make a buck there are easier ways to do so. But who breeds snakes just for money? Most have other reasons for doing so simple business math cannot account for. Yes there is more money in the long term but how many start with a modest investment and are millionaires in ten years of breeding?

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Are there even ANY millionaires from breeding?

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Originally Posted by kitedemon

I see what you are saying but I also see holes in logic.

The biggest is one 5000$ snake does not breed alone. You need a female or male. Your figuring is off a single animal. The second flaw is labour investment return should not calculate labour as return but deductions. So lets start with 5200$ and you make 50000 in two years so that leaves 44800 then subtract labour say 50$ an hour @156 hours (7800) leaves 37000. Then subtract power, feed, substrate, cleaning and sundries say 225 per month (I think this is very low) then 5400 more gone leaves 31600. rent... the next big expense, say what in my area a 10x35 space with water hook up and bathroom is about 1200 a month, but lets say you find a basement somewhere or in a home, so 600 a month for that... so 14400 leaves 17200 profit in two years.

5200 in gold two years ago is 15112 today subtract the 100$ in labour and you have 15000 today. less the initial 5200 leaves you 9800$ with low risk and no effort. The difference is only 7400 give or take. If we figure only two years and add things like T-stats rack and tubs flex watt insurance ect. You can carve off a extra 2000-4000 quite fast.


If you are simply trying to make a buck there are easier ways to do so. But who breeds snakes just for money? Most have other reasons for doing so simple business math cannot account for. Yes there is more money in the long term but how many start with a modest investment and are millionaires in ten years of breeding?

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$50/hr? I don't make that at my job. Plus I enjoy them, it's not a job.
$250/month for maintenance? I have almost 30 snakes and spend about $80/month on food and bedding.
I keep them in my kids room $0 rent.
I built my racks and incubator for about $300.

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Originally Posted by dart

Are there even ANY millionaires from breeding?

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You'd be surprised......

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Originally Posted by kitedemon

I see what you are saying but I also see holes in logic.

The biggest is one 5000$ snake does not breed alone. You need a female or male. Your figuring is off a single animal. The second flaw is labour investment return should not calculate labour as return but deductions. So lets start with 5200$ and you make 50000 in two years so that leaves 44800 then subtract labour say 50$ an hour @156 hours (7800) leaves 37000. Then subtract power, feed, substrate, cleaning and sundries say 225 per month (I think this is very low) then 5400 more gone leaves 31600. rent... the next big expense, say what in my area a 10x35 space with water hook up and bathroom is about 1200 a month, but lets say you find a basement somewhere or in a home, so 600 a month for that... so 14400 leaves 17200 profit in two years.

5200 in gold two years ago is 15112 today subtract the 100$ in labour and you have 15000 today. less the initial 5200 leaves you 9800$ with low risk and no effort. The difference is only 7400 give or take. If we figure only two years and add things like T-stats rack and tubs flex watt insurance ect. You can carve off a extra 2000-4000 quite fast.


If you are simply trying to make a buck there are easier ways to do so. But who breeds snakes just for money? Most have other reasons for doing so simple business math cannot account for. Yes there is more money in the long term but how many start with a modest investment and are millionaires in ten years of breeding?

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As mentioned, your numbers are way off. My numbers were based off the morph to normals (at less than $100 each, it's not much of a factor). I have nearly 60 snakes in my collection and raise my own rats (about 500 at any given time). I spend about $120-150/month on rodent bedding and food and cleaning supplies for the snakes. Any increase in my electric bill has not been noticeable and I do not need to pay rent to keep them. It takes me a total of about 5-7 hours a week to maintain this collection. If I value that time at $30/hr, then my total financial investment is about $1,000/month, or $12,000/year. That comes out to about $200 per year per snake. With your numbers, you end up paying well over $1,500 per year per snake... which, I'm sorry, but that's completely absurd. 10 snakes can be kept in a bedroom with very minimal expense and upkeep.

Of course, this isn't factoring in other elements such as racks, thermostats and other one-off expenses. With 10 snakes, you're looking at less than $2,000 for all that, which isn't a whole lot off that nice big bottom line.

Investing in gold is hardly risk free. Gold prices rise and fall like everything else in the economy. You might win big, or you might lose. Regardless, your decisions and know-how really have little to do with that. With ball pythons, you decide which mutations to buy, which to breed together, and how to keep and maintain them. A lot of the end result is in your control.

I do have to agree with you though, that making money should not be the sole reason for breeding ball pythons. There is great potential for making money there, but if you don't love the animals, your husbandry will suffer and in turn, your animals will suffer. Cleaning snake poop week in and week out isn't glamorous or fun. Gotta love the animals first and foremost.

My point is it is a business and as a business if you can't pay for the space you are using it isn't realistic. If it is in your house the % of floor space against the mortgage should be factored in. As with all expenses and wages even if it is yours. The business has a business account and you have yours separate and untangled. The two should not be mixed up. I have owned a business for quite some time I pay myself a wage (yes 100 an hour) and my business used to pay rent to myself when I had a home office. If a business cannot pay its employees a wage and expenses with cash in the bank it is not viable.

I can't see running a professional business from a bedroom. It really requires a proper location. Perhaps my failing in understanding is that I have run a professional business for 20 + years and just can't get my head around is that you value your real estate at 0 (property taxes? mortgage? insurance? all cost nothing?), and not paying a decent wage to the owner/operator.

I can't say what breeding expenses are like I can only judge against my collection. I based it on my personal expenses. Personally I can't see 2 snakes turing that kind of profit. Does that mean that you make 900000 on 30 pairs a year? I believe the skill you possess is worth more than 30/hr.

If you are right you are encouraging a lot more competition.

Sorry for the debate Op. My advise is buy what you like.

SWR, one of the biggest reptile breeders in southern Wisconsin breeds all of his snakes in his basement. I find him to be incredibly professional, I have bought multiple snakes from Jim. In a business sense I don't see why you would allow yourself to purchase a separate building if you have the space at home. Look at all the extra and unnecessary costs that would be spent, gas, rent, more electricity, insurance, and taxes, not to mention all the time you would spend time driving back and forth.

I don't think many people are able to make a substantial profit off breeding, but there are those that do, and do it very well.

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Originally Posted by LotsaBalls

$50/hr? I don't make that at my job. Plus I enjoy them, it's not a job.
$250/month for maintenance? I have almost 30 snakes and spend about $80/month on food and bedding.
I keep them in my kids room $0 rent.
I built my racks and incubator for about $300.

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What about electric? I spend at least $100 each month on electric. Larger breeders would spend considerably more, and some even have to purchase warehouses.

Also, what if the animals die, or decide to never breed. With gold, that isn't possible.

It depends a lot on what you already have. If you are starting from scratch, but already have food supply, caging, heat, incubators... everything except the snakes you really have many options. Double supers, double recessive, lots of single gene females and a few 3-4 gene males.

One option, a double super male. Super pastel ivory or super pewter. 3-5K, and several pastel yellowbelly or pewter females and several normal proven females at $100 each. Not much variety here, but you would never produce normals and could actually get into a 3 gene super pretty easy.

Next option, double recesive. Albino het pied male 3K. Several double het albino/pied females at 1K each and a handful of albino females to make albino pos het pieds. Again, not much different variety, but gets you into some of the coolests combos out, albino/pied, albino/clown, clown/pied whatever tickles your fancy.

Another route is several pastel, lesser, mojave, pinstripe, spider females and a killer queen bee male and/or a killer blast (or whatever 4 gene male suits your taste) This will give you tons of different offspring that you could hold back a few females and replace the sinlge gene girls with multiple gene females in three years.

And again, it all boils down to what do you want to work with, who is your target customer and how many snakes do you want to be working with. Good luck either way

i am sorry if i had 10k or 12k i would put that on a down payment for a house instead of just one snake. i would rather work my way up with low grade morphs to mid-grade morphs. the high end stuff today will be the mid-grade tomarrow ( not really but you get my point).

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Originally Posted by Wh00h0069

What about electric? I spend at least $100 each month on electric. Larger breeders would spend considerably more, and some even have to purchase warehouses.

Also, what if the animals die, or decide to never breed. With gold, that isn't possible.

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$100 month?? What are you heating with?? Gold?!?

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Originally Posted by LotsaBalls

$100 month?? What are you heating with?? Gold?!?

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RHP's and Flexwatt. It was a ton worse in the winter at my old house when I used to use space heaters in the snake room and and the garage for rats.

Did this thread really turn into buying gold as an investment over ball pythons? :confused:

For those who want to buy and sell gold for a living, power to you! This is a ball-python forum and the OP asked what they would do if they had money to spend on BPs.

If you think you can't make better money buying gold than breeding ball pythons, awesome... start a new thread about your experience, I'd like to hear.