Why We Are Idiots For Using Kingsnake.com To Price Our Animals

I wrote this a while back but someone encouraged me to post it here to keep the idea fresh in people's minds. For your entertainment:

The cycle of going to kingsnake.com to see what your animals are worth has to stop. It is destroying our industry. And no, that is not an overstatement. It is true. A multi-billion dollar industry is at the whim of the most recent stupid price advertised by some out-of-work house painter who breeds ball pythons on the side and just crashed his car while driving home drunk. The biggest names in our industry go to kingsnake to figure out what animals are worth. I won't name names but you know who you are. I cannot imagine anything more silly. In the ball python world, the tail is truly wagging the dog.

Let me offer you a hypothetical scenario (or is it?) that illustrates why you should never again trust a price you see on kingsnake.com (or any other site of a similar ilk). For this illustration I am going to make up a ball python morph called the Phantasm Ball. Phantasms are co-dominant and currently sell for $2,500.

Larry, a small-time ball python breeder desperately wants a Phantasm Ball but can't afford one. Unwilling to save his money Larry hatches a plan. And here's how it goes:

Larry doesn't own any Phantasm Balls but Larry posts an ad on kingsnake.com offering 1.1 Phantasms for $2,000 each or $3,500 for the pair. Individually that's $500 less than the going rate and as a pair is $1,500 off the current market value. Naturally, Larry is going to get calls to buy the animals. "Sorry," Larry says. "They already sold". But he says he should be getting some more in the next week or two and he takes names and numbers to call people back. The animals never actually existed, of course, and the one's he is going to get next week don't really exist either.

A real owner of Phantasms logs in to kingsnake.com and sees Larry's ads selling Phantasms for $2,000. "Crap!", he says, "The price is already down $500 from last year." Wanting to be competitive with Larry (the liar), the real Phantasm owner offers his on kingsnake.com for $1,800 each, $3, 000 for a pair. He sell them, happy for the $3K but disappointed because he thought he was going to get more for them.

Three weeks later Larry the Liar posts two more Phantasms on kingsnake.com for $1,500 each. In his ad he explains how much it pains him to sell the animals for so little but he was recently injured and needs money to pay medical bills. When the calls pour in he once again explains that they have already been sold. He again says that a fellow breeder is expecting some more Phantasms to hatch in the coming weeks and will post them up as soon as they are ready. In a few weeks, the cycle repeats again.

You can see where this is going. Larry, a guy who doesn't even own Phantasms is able to drive the price down by more than 50%-80% in a matter of months. Now, with the prices at a level he can afford, he buys himself a pair of Phantasms. He is laughing his ass off at the rest of us as he does it.

Is this story true? I don't know. It's possible. The fact that it took me about zero seconds to think it up means that someone less ethical than me thought it up long ago. Never mind economics, supply and demand, the economy, falling home prices, unemployment, blah-blah-blah. Pinstripe ball pythons were more than $2,000 in the latter part of 2006. Now, at the beginning of 2009, barely 24 months later, people balk at paying $300 for one. That is false. Ball pythons lay an average of 6 eggs. Few to none of us have super-pinstripes (yes, I know there is no super-phenotype) so 3 of those 6 are pinstripes (maybe). I'm a small/medium sized breeder. I produced about 70 clutches of eggs last year. That's about 420 babies. How many were Pinstripes? Twenty. I kept 12 of them for myself, I sold 8. Multiply me by 200 similar-sized breeders and there are 1,600 Pinstripes for sale in 2008. Think there are more than 1,600 ball python freaks in the USA who want a Pinstripe? Uh yeah, there's more than that in my little crevice of Virginia. If the market isn't saturated how did the price fall by almost 90% in 2 years? I'll tell you how: kingsnake.com and all of us going to it for pricing. Whether it's people lying about animals they don't have or every person posting just a little bit less than the person who posted before them doesn't really matter. If we continue to use kingsnake.com as our source for pricing the market will not have longevity. We are ruining our own business and most of us are conscious of it.

I used to email people who put up really low prices asking them why there were doing it. Most of them didn't offer valid reasons other than, "I really need money". One guy told me he bred his own food and wasn't able to produce enough to feed his ball python production so he wanted to sell them as quickly as possible so he didn't have to feed them. He admitted he knew he was selling them for a really low price compared to what they were worth but you know what? I never again saw them for more than his admittedly low price. His two weeks of low posting brought the price down nationwide by over $150/animal.

Kingsnake.com allows a breeder with a single pair of animals, say one bumble bee male and one normal female to control the price of bumble bees for every producer in the country. I've heard breeders say, "let them sell theirs for those low prices. After they do, they'll be gone and prices will return to normal." But they don't. Prices go back up once they go down. NEVER!

I have more to say on this topic. A lot more. But I'll save it for another day because if I don't, this will turn into a book and no one will read it. I also don't want to rant. I want to come across as a lucid, sane person.

In the meantime, please, please, please stop going on-line to figure out what your animals are worth. Call Brian Barczyk. Call Kevin McCurley. Call Bob Clark. Call Adam Wysocki. Call Pete Kahl. Call Kim Bell. Call Colette Sutherland. Call Tracy Barker. Call an established and respected breeder in this business and ask them what the realistic price should be. Don't look at kingsnake.com anymore.

If you agree with me, even a little bit, please get other people to read this. We've got to start preserving our industry. Prices will fall, they always do. But prices shouldn't fall they was they have been.

As a final thought, let me explain prices to you. There are four different types of prices in the ball python industry. They are:

1. Retail prices - This is the price that should be listed on kingsnake.com or at a trade show. You should be relatively serious about this price. If you negotiate on this price it should not be by more than about 10%. Pricing an animal for $1,000 and selling it for $500 ruins the credibility of all other prices you advertise.
2. Sale prices - These are "weekend special" prices or "Santa Claus Specials". These prices should be a reasonable discount (10-20%) off your normal retail price. Don't get crazy. Sale prices damage the market long-term. For instance, pastel clowns were selling for $12,000 last year. One weekend someone put them up on kingsnake.com for a "weekend special" of $6,500 (because he needed money). The price never again went above $6,500. All it takes is one stupid person to ruin it for everyone.
3. Wholesale prices - Jesus, don't get me started. Somebody conned the world into believing that wholesale prices are 50% off retail. That's crap! Wholesalers DO NOT DESERVE 50% MARGIN. You know who decided that it should be 50% off retail? The wholesalers!!! Quit buying into their crap. Demand more money for your production. You do all the work, ALL OF IT, and the wholesaler gets to make the exact same amount as you??? Seriously? Think about it. You think the rest of the world (outside the reptile world) has a 50% margin on their products? Nope. Try 15-20% on average. If you sell an animal at 50% of its retail value you give the person buying it 50% of margin to ruin the going rate. Why wouldn't he sell it for 80% of the current retail prices? He only paid 50% so he's making 30% for absolutely nothing. STOP WHOLESALING YOUR ANIMALS FOR 50% OF THEIR VALUE!!! YOU ARE DESTROYING THE MARKET IF YOU DO IT.
4. Friend prices - These are whatever you want them to be. Hell, I've given extremely valuable snakes to good friends for free. These deals should be secret, between you and your friend. Don't go on a forum and tell everybody that you just got a bumble bee for $300 and leave out the part about how the guy who sold it to you has been your friend since birth and you gave him one of your kidneys last year. Someone hearing that you got a bumble bee for $300 makes them think that they deserve one for that much, too. Deals made between friends in back rooms need to stay there.

Let's get a collective clue, people. C'mon. We're smarter than this.

Cheers,

Hey, colin thank's for the post..

I remember when you posted this the first time around.Its a great read I hope people take the time to gain the perspective you are attempting to show them.

While I mainly agree with you on most of your points.

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In the meantime, please, please, please stop going on-line to figure out what your animals are worth. Call Brian Barczyk. Call Kevin McCurley. Call Bob Clark. Call Adam Wysocki. Call Pete Kahl. Call Kim Bell. Call Colette Sutherland. Call Tracy Barker. Call an established and respected breeder in this business and ask them what the realistic price should be. Don't look at kingsnake.com anymore.

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I'm not sure about the wisdom of having your competitors price your snakes for you. There has got to be a better way.

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Originally Posted by MarkS

While I mainly agree with you on most of your points.



I'm not sure about the wisdom of having your competitors price your snakes for you. There has got to be a better way.

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Touche. :)

Perhaps it's in the approach: Something like, "Hey Brian, what do you think a fair retail price on a LMNOP ball should be?" rather than "How much should I sell my LMNOP ball for?"

The way in which we probe one another for information is just as important as the information we are trying to obtain.

Colin I could not agree more with you on this post. Thank you for taking the time to write ALL of it. Maybe it should be posted all over the kingsnake forum. I think ultimately with some of people selling their animals it comes down to out right greed trying to beat the other guy to the punch and make that dollar. They can always seem to find an excuse...

I agree with you, but I believe that history is full of lessons to be learned. History is a clue to things that may/will happen in the future. IMO
For example: as a small time breeder(it is a hobby that my wife and I enjoy), I know that bumble bees will be in the $300 range before long(IMO again).

I read in a book on boas: the reptile business(selling reptiles for pets)is fickle
I interpret this as: high prices on expensive morphs are temporary

I do believe combos and new morphs should command high prices. Who do you think is willing to pay these high prices? I'd say if an average hobbyist(not a millionaire looking for an exotic show peice) pays for a $5,000(example only) snake, that hobbyist is a breeder or has every intention of becoming a breeder.

I did enjoy the read. I wish I could sell ball pythons and boas produced by me for the prices I've paid for their parents.

I wouldn't call the ball python breeding industry a multi-billion dollar industry, maybe million, but definitely not billions. If it was you would have almost as many people with BP's as with dogs and cats.

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Originally Posted by ColinWeaver

Touche. :)

Perhaps it's in the approach: Something like, "Hey Brian, what do you think a fair retail price on a LMNOP ball should be?" rather than "How much should I sell my LMNOP ball for?"

The way in which we probe one another for information is just as important as the information we are trying to obtain.

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Probing can be as easy as looking at their web site for the retail price.
However I believe you are leaving out two people to look out for; The intentional market crashers. Those big breeders who breed up a bunch of a super popular morph and then dump it on the market really cheap for a quick killing. Or those who are into much higher end morphs and consider the one and two gene animals as a bother to be gotten rid of because they aren't worth the time to market so they dump them on the market cheap.

Doesn't price just depend on how much people are willing to pay for a snake at a price that a breeder is welling to sell the animal for?

Even if a breeder put a spider up for 5,000, wouldn't that be their choice? Out of current market, but the market really only depends on what people want to price their animals.
Just use your best judgment.

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Originally Posted by blackcrystal22

Doesn't price just depend on how much people are willing to pay for a snake at a price that a breeder is welling to sell the animal for?

Even if a breeder put a spider up for 5,000, wouldn't that be their choice? Out of current market, but the market really only depends on what people want to price their animals.
Just use your best judgment.

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This is the reason for the post. It is not to bash any one but to make everyone aware of the market volatility and who is controling it.

Hi Colin, Thanks for the post. You have a lot of good points, but I don't think anything with pricing is going to change. People regardless of kingsnake will keep this trend of under-cutting the next guy.

The other day I was reading an old thread on KS about spider pricing from I believe 2006 and the poster was saying he didn't feel that spiders would still be an investment animal at $2500. After reading it I would be pretty mad if I paid $2500 for a female at that time.

I think there's too many people buying too many snakes and if they don't unload the offspring in the first few months drastically drop the price to just unload them.

I think there are two other big problems when it comes to pricing. First is the back door wheeling and dealing. Now granted some people buy alot from some breeders or have known breeders for a long time. Do they deserve a better price. I would say sure. And this has gone on for years, but there is a big difference now. Back in the day those deals were kept quiet. Now people brag that they got this for this price and it gets around and people start using it as a bargaining chip. Enough people start using it and it does eventually bring the price down.

Secondly is the shows. I for one will not spend the money for a table in my area. One breeder in particular can not be competed with on his prices. 3 years ago proven breeder het ghost males were being sold for$35. Not one but a half dozen of them. At the time they were $150-$200 on KS. More recently YB males for $35 ea. Last I looked at KS there were none at this price.

I wish I remembered more of his prices but I don't look too hard at his table. Just my thoughts and take on it.

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Originally Posted by pvdgod

I wouldn't call the ball python breeding industry a multi-billion dollar industry, maybe million, but definitely not billions. If it was you would have almost as many people with BP's as with dogs and cats.

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I would say he is correct on multi- billion. Remember people with cats and dogs only have one or two. People with BP's usually have many more than that. Even most hobbyist breeders have over a hundred animals. The big breeders have thousands.

None of us can stop the low ballers but we can choose not to be one of them.

very nice read...to bad your example had to be " out of work house painter"LOL
im a union painter and do it all..........commercial,undustrial........i know it was just a example.........i know..........just thought it was funny......keep those good articles comming!

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Originally Posted by blackcrystal22

Doesn't price just depend on how much people are willing to pay for a snake at a price that a breeder is welling to sell the animal for?

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I wrote out a long post but decided to bite my own tongue, this was what my post was about. There is no set price on a pet, it is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it.

there is many breeders out there that try to lowball everyone including you on purchases but expect you to pay their full price every time. i have seen it way too much as of late.

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Originally Posted by briz

I would say he is correct on multi- billion. Remember people with cats and dogs only have one or two. People with BP's usually have many more than that. Even most hobbyist breeders have over a hundred animals. The big breeders have thousands.

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i still dont think so, but would love to see some numbers. I think the avg hobbyist has maybe a dozen snakes, maybe a couple dozen, but not hundreds. The dog industry alone is a $60 billion a year business, and thats not just the cost of the dog itself, but the food, the grooming, the boarding, the cute little outfits, etc. And each purebred dog, esp those little teacups that are so popular go for a couple grand each. Only the rarest BP morphs go for that. Yes, some brand new morphs can go for 20k, and you wont find any dog for that much, but what are there, maybe 15 reallly BIG BP breeders out there? I think the reptile industry as a whole may be in the low billions range, maybe not even that much. You have to rememeber these being exotics that the number of people who have snakes and balls in particular is waaaaaay lower than your more common domestic animals.

Colin I agree with your points but untill Kingsnake has a competive site with similar industry recognition, people will continue to give it this monoply like status it has now and allow it to dictate the market like Wall St.

I do think the economy is definately encouraging the impatient and unknown breeders to dump animals on Kingsnake and then it spirals down from there. This is not the only industry that is experiencing lowballing. I am a self employed contractor and I have seen this behavior explode in the last year worsening an already slow market.

It aint pretty!

Is it time to start a centralized industry organization that follows and recommends/establishes pricing? With so much drama and fueds in the BP market I would think it difficult to get the big dogs to get organized and cooperative. Which is a shame because someone needs to organize an alternative to the whim of a Kingsnake ad.

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Originally Posted by West Coast Jungle

Colin I agree with your points but untill Kingsnake has a competive site with similar industry recognition, people will continue to give it this monoply like status it has now and allow it to dictate the market like Wall St.

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I know, why don't we have a cap on kingsnake.com executives' compensation and after that we can have a bailout for it since it's so big it's "Too big to fail" :salute:



And the competitor site is called Fauna Classifieds.

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Originally Posted by pvdgod

I know, why don't we have a cap on kingsnake.com executives' compensation and after that we can have a bailout for it since it's so big it's "Too big to fail" :salute:



And the competitor site is called Fauna Classifieds.

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Haha, that's funny. Maybe if Jeffs fancy new race car doesn't work out like he's planned he can get an automotive industry bailout? :rolleyes:

Oh and Fauna has just as many lowball ads as Kingsnake does. Sometimes even lower.

I agree with all said. I dont breed but at this rate everyones collection will drop in value.(But value is not my passion of course.)
I"m not sure i would buy a high dollar bp(sight unseen) from KS unless it was someone i recognized.
I worked with big breeders at shows and they walk around,check prices and adjust accordingly. My brother (who breeds Beardies) said this BP thing is just getting too big. His quote was "Every other table is Ball Pythons" " you could have a "just ball pythons" show.

If there are this many people looking for BPs and there multiple times the supply, those sellers who rely on the money will have to "underprice" the next guy and the chain is started.
Harley davidson had years of a waiting list because they couldnt keep up with demand. Now they're drastically reducing prices .
I really believe its 1st supply/demand and 2nd economy.

what nobody seems to mention though is quality. Just because some guy was able to hatch out a super pastel in his basement and puts it up on KS for 400 bucks doesnt mean its anything close to one that Graziani or VPI would sell for 1000. Same way you can find a beat up Camaro on Ebay for 1000 bucks or you can buy a mint one for 15k, etc. It's a free country and the free market always weeds out inferior products in the long run. Of course if you use one site or classifieds to base your prices on you are not getting the full picture of the overall market.

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Originally Posted by pvdgod

what nobody seems to mention though is quality. Just because some guy was able to hatch out a super pastel in his basement and puts it up on KS for 400 bucks doesnt mean its anything close to one that Graziani or VPI would sell for 1000. Same way you can find a beat up Camaro on Ebay for 1000 bucks or you can buy a mint one for 15k, etc. It's a free country and the free market always weeds out inferior products in the long run. Of course if you use one site or classifieds to base your prices on you are not getting the full picture of the overall market.

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I agree with this. People will always pay for quality. I think the car example is great. Sure I can find a ton of $75 pastels, but most of them are already browning out and fading color, even as hatchlings and have dull colors. In a year or two, those won't look much different than normals.

I do think KS negatively affects the market, however, i do think the market was over inflated to begin with. Plus with more people breeding means there is going to be more stock, which means prices will fall. I do think that to some extent this causes a deflationary effect in which people hold out on buying waiting for the price to fall. Thus when animals aren't moving, one lowers the prices, and the cycle continues.

But prices will fall, and they'll continue to fall even w/o KS. Its just a fact of life. We can sit around and complain about it and cry over spilt milk, or we can just adapt, and focus on producing the highest quality animals and to plan long run taking into account falling prices.

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Originally Posted by MarkS

Haha, that's funny. Maybe if Jeffs fancy new race car doesn't work out like he's planned he can get an automotive industry bailout? :rolleyes:

Oh and Fauna has just as many lowball ads as Kingsnake does. Sometimes even lower.

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why is it the auto industry (when actually only 2 car companies got money) is the butt end of the bail out jokes when the money they got wasnt anything compared to the money the finacial district got?

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Originally Posted by Blue Apple Herps

what nobody seems to mention though is quality. Just because some guy was able to hatch out a super pastel in his basement and puts it up on KS for 400 bucks doesnt mean its anything close to one that Graziani or VPI would sell for 1000. Same way you can find a beat up Camaro on Ebay for 1000 bucks or you can buy a mint one for 15k, etc. It's a free country and the free market always weeds out inferior products in the long run. Of course if you use one site or classifieds to base your prices on you are not getting the full picture of the overall market.

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Exactly. Quality will always command a better price. I've seen pastels for $85 males, $125 females. I've also seen some nice ones for $400 that I would buy any day over their cheaper, often ugly conterparts.

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Originally Posted by pvdgod

what nobody seems to mention though is quality.

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I always get a kick out of the "quality" argument.

As far as I know, the "big guys" don't destroy/sterilize the low quality animals they produce. They mark the price down some and then sell them with the full knowledge these animals are likely to be used by someone for breeding.


I have produced some beautiful ball pythons "in my basement", by the way. My collection size is based on space available (for both the snakes and feeders). I keep my collection the same size, but continue to increase the quality. I do this by selling as many snakes as I produce every season. For every hatchling I "hold back" or new snake purchased, one has to go.

If you feel my asking price is too low, you are welcome to buy them all from me and hold onto them until prices go back up to where you would want them to be. Good luck with that plan :)

It's supply vs. demand.

Great article, i love it.
The only thing i can say is that even though we all hate those "big" breeders for killing the prices for everyone else at the shows we also love getting that sweet sweet deal on a snake we've been lusting over for months if not years.
A friend of mine who is a pretty good size BP breeder told me this at the last NY expo. He said, "I hate selling against him but i love buying from him when i need something". If you've ever been to the NY Whiteplains expo you know who he was referring to.
I don't think the shows are that bad because not everyone has access to one, especially one where there are "Big" breeders with crazy low prices. kingsnake on the other hand is there for all to see and buy from and the idea of someone posting a fake add to drive the price down makes me sick to my stomach (and I sell cars for a living so i should be used to all this kinda stuff)

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Originally Posted by JayCee

I always get a kick out of the "quality" argument.

As far as I know, the "big guys" don't destroy/sterilize the low quality animals they produce. They mark the price down some and then sell them with the full knowledge these animals are likely to be used by someone for breeding.


I have produced some beautiful ball pythons "in my basement", by the way. My collection size is based on space available (for both the snakes and feeders). I keep my collection the same size, but continue to increase the quality. I do this by selling as many snakes as I produce every season. For every hatchling I "hold back" or new snake purchased, one has to go.

If you feel my asking price is too low, you are welcome to buy them all from me and hold onto them until prices go back up to where you would want them to be. Good luck with that plan :)

It's supply vs. demand.

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dont take it the wrong way, most of us on here myself included would be the "basement" guy, i was just making the point that you have to compare apples to apples. Any one of us could buy some of the "Big guys" primo stock and produce babies that are no less quality than they would themselves, however again, you get what you pay for. Also if not for kingsnake, where would the hobbyist breeder (like most of us) have a place to buy/sell snakes without all the money for a web presence, advertising, table at a show, etc?

my question is why does quality and price always seem like people think they are one in the same. just cuz something cost more doesnt make it of a higher quality. breeder A can produce a top shelf honeybee in his shed and sell if for $15 and breeder B breed the worst example of one and list it for 2k. i know for me when i shop i look for the best at the cheapest price (yes i said cheap). people do this everyday when it comes to other things and noone says anything bad about it.

a few years ago lcd and plasma tvs were 2 and 3 times the price they are today but i dont see anyone of us complaining about that (maybe someone who paid the higher price).

we all sit back and call this a hoby but complain about the prices like a business. if this is just a hoby treat it like one, when it comes to most hobies you lose money in every aspect of it, i have yet seen any sort of return on the thousands ive spent on my r/c's (i only buy top quality there too) and i look at snakes in the same way if i can happen to get a couple dollars to pay for some food from breeding them cool if not who cares i love the hoby and thats all it is

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Originally Posted by JayCee

I always get a kick out of the "quality" argument.

As far as I know, the "big guys" don't destroy/sterilize the low quality animals they produce. They mark the price down some and then sell them with the full knowledge these animals are likely to be used by someone for breeding.


I have produced some beautiful ball pythons "in my basement", by the way. My collection size is based on space available (for both the snakes and feeders). I keep my collection the same size, but continue to increase the quality. I do this by selling as many snakes as I produce every season. For every hatchling I "hold back" or new snake purchased, one has to go.

If you feel my asking price is too low, you are welcome to buy them all from me and hold onto them until prices go back up to where you would want them to be. Good luck with that plan :)

It's supply vs. demand.

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I don't really get what you're saying here. Of course the "big breeders" don't kill their ugly hatchlings -- that would be asinine. They also don't market them as any less suitable for breeding, but you can't get around the fact that ugly animals generally (though admittedly, not always) produce ugly offspring, and vise-versa.

All people are saying is that a pretty animal of a given morph is always going to command a somewhat higher price than an ugly animal of the same morph -- regardless of who produced it ("basement breeder" or "big guy"). Sure, there are big names who sell some ugly examples of given morphs at inflated prices, and they'll get that price, thanks to their name. But I still think that "Basement breeder A" with a gorgeous, bright yellow pastel will be able to sell it for a higher price than "Basement breeder B" with a dirt-brown pastel that looks little different from a normal.

I agree with you though -- ultimately, for the most part it's all supply and demand. Otherwise, the piebald (which has been around a LOT longer than the pinstripe) would've plummeted in price just as fast as all of these co-doms.

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Originally Posted by JDL

we all sit back and call this a hobby but complain about the prices like a business. if this is just a hoby treat it like one,

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You found the chink in the armor of private breeders.

IF it's a hobby, price is not relevant.

IF it's a business, price is all that IS important.

It can't be both.

IF you're complaining about price, you're a business.

It's that simple to this simple mind.

All the rest is justification for NOT wanting to be known as a business when, in fact, that is exactly what you are.

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Originally Posted by Serpent_Nirvana

I don't really get what you're saying here. Of course the "big breeders" don't kill their ugly hatchlings -- that would be asinine.

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The point I was making is that some breeders of other species DO that with their lower quality animals. They put them down in some cases. They sterilize and sell as pets in others. That is how the professional breeders maintain the quality.

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Originally Posted by JDL

my question is why does quality and price always seem like people think they are one in the same. just cuz something cost more doesnt make it of a higher quality. breeder A can produce a top shelf honeybee in his shed and sell if for $15 and breeder B breed the worst example of one and list it for 2k. i know for me when i shop i look for the best at the cheapest price (yes i said cheap). people do this everyday when it comes to other things and noone says anything bad about it.

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I'd imagine we all do, to a degree (price-checking, that is). Still, though, I'd rather pay a bit more for a really stunning animal than get the cheapest possible price on something ugly. Maybe I wouldn't pay 10x the price, but I know I'd certainly pay more.

I mean, hell, these are ALL just Python regis. I can pick up a Python regis for $10, as can anybody on this forum. I don't want just ANY Python regis, though -- I want ones that look crazy, with bright colors and funky patterns and all the like. If I pay $75 for a pastel that looks about the same as a $10 normal, isn't that more of a ripoff than paying $150 for a pastel that even non-herpers will see and say, "Wow"?

That doesn't mean that just because someone -- ANYONE, even a "big name" -- prices a pastel at $150, that makes it nice, or because someone else's pastels are $75, they're automatically ugly. But if one is a knockout, and the other looks like dirt ... Well ...

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we all sit back and call this a hoby but complain about the prices like a business. if this is just a hoby treat it like one, when it comes to most hobies you lose money in every aspect of it, i have yet seen any sort of return on the thousands ive spent on my r/c's (i only buy top quality there too) and i look at snakes in the same way if i can happen to get a couple dollars to pay for some food from breeding them cool if not who cares i love the hoby and thats all it is

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I feel the same way about this, though I know a lot of people don't. You're dang right, though -- what other "hobby" gives even the remotest chance of even breaking even? Heck, I'll be psyched if I can even do this for $100/year, all earnings and expenses tallied up. If I could actually make something at it? Get outta town. :P

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my question is why does quality and price always seem like people think they are one in the same. just cuz something cost more doesnt make it of a higher quality. breeder A can produce a top shelf honeybee in his shed and sell if for $15 and breeder B breed the worst example of one and list it for 2k. i know for me when i shop i look for the best at the cheapest price (yes i said cheap). people do this everyday when it comes to other things and noone says anything bad about it.

a few years ago lcd and plasma tvs were 2 and 3 times the price they are today but i dont see anyone of us complaining about that (maybe someone who paid the higher price).

we all sit back and call this a hoby but complain about the prices like a business. if this is just a hoby treat it like one, when it comes to most hobies you lose money in every aspect of it, i have yet seen any sort of return on the thousands ive spent on my r/c's (i only buy top quality there too) and i look at snakes in the same way if i can happen to get a couple dollars to pay for some food from breeding them cool if not who cares i love the hoby and thats all it is

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Originally Posted by JDL

my question is why does quality and price always seem like people think they are one in the same. just cuz something cost more doesnt make it of a higher quality. breeder A can produce a top shelf honeybee in his shed and sell if for $15 and breeder B breed the worst example of one and list it for 2k. i know for me when i shop i look for the best at the cheapest price (yes i said cheap). people do this everyday when it comes to other things and noone says anything bad about it.

a few years ago lcd and plasma tvs were 2 and 3 times the price they are today but i dont see anyone of us complaining about that (maybe someone who paid the higher price).

we all sit back and call this a hoby but complain about the prices like a business. if this is just a hoby treat it like one, when it comes to most hobies you lose money in every aspect of it, i have yet seen any sort of return on the thousands ive spent on my r/c's (i only buy top quality there too) and i look at snakes in the same way if i can happen to get a couple dollars to pay for some food from breeding them cool if not who cares i love the hoby and thats all it is

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First, check my signature link about cheap vs. quality for a more in depth explanation. I will ask what I feel my animals are worth to ME. If they don't sell because I believe my animals are better than average, then it's no skin off my teeth to hang onto them, because I don't produce more than I can comfortably keep.

I don't shop the price, I shop the animal and the looks of the animal and THEN I ask about price. I EXPECT a primo looking animal to be priced higher than your average animal.

My average babies will be offered at what the market is asking for average animals, but my primo animals will be priced accordingly.

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Originally Posted by JayCee

The point I was making is that some breeders of other species DO that with their lower quality animals. They put them down in some cases. They sterilize and sell as pets in others. That is how the professional breeders maintain the quality.

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Selling, marketing for the pet market is different from culling, though. I market most of my chinchillas as pets, and 90% of the chinchillas I sell are sold to pet homes. Not a lot of people breed chinchillas around here, and I've got a waiting list as long as my arm -- and as far as I can tell, every name on that list just wants a pet.

I don't *only* sell to pet homes, though, and if someone wants to breed the chins they got from me (even if they aren't the quality I want in my breeding program), I'm not going to stop them. I just don't push the breeding thing.

I've said it before, and people don't seem to like to hear it, but -- this is the only animal breeding hobby/industry I know where the vast majority of animals are sold as breeding stock. That means that, with every animal you sell, you're making yourself more competition.

Is that bad? Good? I dunno, but that's the way I see this market. It's a weird one, that's for sure.

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Originally Posted by bad-one

Quality will always command a better price.

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Not for the majority of people buying nowadays. Lowest price is all they care about. They will want you to match the price of a "D" grade animal even though there is no comparison when it comes to quality.

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Originally Posted by SPJ

Not for the majority of people buying nowadays. Lowest price is all they care about. They will want you to match the price of a "D" grade animal even though there is no comparison when it comes to quality.

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That's when you ask - then why don't you buy from XYZ? If you like the animal that I'm offering better, because it's a NICER animal, then why would you be surprised it's priced accordingly?

If you like XYZ's prices more than the quality of the animal, then go buy from XYZ.

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Originally Posted by SPJ

Not for the majority of people buying nowadays. Lowest price is all they care about. They will want you to match the price of a "D" grade animal even though there is no comparison when it comes to quality.

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But at the end of the day is up to the seller to say yes or no to that offer. If you have an animal that is considered A grade and take an offer equal to a D grade animal well then... shame on you.

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Originally Posted by rabernet

That's when you ask - then why don't you buy from XYZ? If you like the animal that I'm offering better, because it's a NICER animal, then why would you be surprised it's priced accordingly?

If you like XYZ's prices more than the quality of the animal, then go buy from XYZ.

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And this dilemma is happening in ALL kinds of industries now. Not just ball python breeding.

I considered offering art commissions in certain fantasy art fields for about 0.02 milliseconds, until I realized that I would have to work for well below minimum wage to compete with all of the crap-ass artists who do $1 sketch commissions and have driven the price down for everybody else who doesn't have a name and a "known presence." So, this is not a unique problem, unfortunately.

Although I really agree with you on just about everything you said Collin, all I've got to say is good luck.

There will ALWAYS be someone out there trying to turn a quick buck, and who doesn't care for the animals. Its unfortunate but true, and will ruin it for the people who really care for thier animals, and use it for thier livelyhood.

I for one, am very angry that prices for many of the animals I wanted are now half of what they where when I got into ball pythons. Example: Female Bees in January where about 1200 give or take 100 depending on where you looked, now, I can grab one for 600, easily.

I'm a hobbist breeder for the time being, and it definately does suck to see how hard it'll be to get things up and running. What can be done realistically though? The whole basis of our economy is undercutting competition while still turning a profit. Like I said, there will always be someone who is willing to sell at a super low price in order to make a quick buck.

Hatching female spiders for 275, males for 150, pastel males for 50. I can't hardly express how it makes me feel to see the combos I was looking to producing going for half of what they were worth 6 months ago.

Personally anytime I hear people complain about Joe Schmoe producing second rate animals in their basement and lowballing prices, I want to go search out Joe Schmoe and buy an animal from him.

I, like probably half or more people with this crazy hobby, am in it to produce what I can for myself with what I can get. Many people make it sound like they want the market of Ball pythons to just be high end consumers who will pay any price for their nifty living art... while the actual ball python market seems to be hobby breeders/people without a million dollars who see the potential in what nature has invested in this species, either to focus their creative juices... or to make a profit on this potential.

And while selective breeding for the best examples of morphs is a skill, the expectation to make a fortune doing it degrades the hobby (while creating it at the same time of course.. lol). Because once you add such high profits you Invite the lowballers /profitseekers to undercut you. Without them, everyone in the hobby would be working on producing the best examples... because it wouldn't be the ball-python business... or ball-python industry.... but it would be a hobby who's players would be in it not for the money but for the love of the animals and trying to produce the best not the most profitable.

Any Joe schmoe in his basement has the potential to create animals as beautiful as the big guys, and if the big guys want to actually move their animals they are going to provide Joe with the tools to create what he wants at a price Joe wants to pay, or they can stop breeding as many animals as they do and only cater to the rich who can afford the insane prices complicated morphs reach.

Making a market and multi million dollar businesses out of the hobby turns it INTO an industry, and anyone seeking to profit off of that had better be ready for how industries work. Competition is brutal... it's the nature of nature itself

I for one someone fascinated by the potential in this species am very thankful for the hard work of those who both created the magnitude of the hobby as it stands (I mean creating this industry has lead to the development of reptile shows where I first got hooked on these animals) and are providing the toolset for those like me to breed and channel my creative energies with the variety of genetics brought into the hobby. But in the long run, the mutations we hunt down to put in our projects aren't Created by us, we don't own a patent and such and couldn't get one because they are Created by nature itself.

Putting a price on natures works means that price has to be one people are willing to pay for what they want to do with the animal. Make it a business and you get to deal with how businesses work. I for one couldn't and wouldn't pay the prices the higher end morphs go for until the market brings the prices into my range, and I'm expecting there's alot more of my type in the hobby than those who want to spend 5k or more on a single mutation... considering those who want to spend say 20k on that banana female are only going to do so so they can jump in the market and become your competition. You only get 2k for a pinstripe because people who buy it at that price know how much they can make off it in the future. End consumers aren't paying 2k for a one trick pony.

Lowballers dragging the prices down do benefit the hobby breeder immensely though, and help spread the hobby opening the market to more consumers. Eventually the market will stabilize and while your investment won't be paying off over 100% a year.... as long as americans are so spoiled to have enough disposable income to spend on such things as designer pets there will be a market. There will be niches such as wal-mart quality base morphs, high grade base morphs, triple recessive designer morphs for the rockstars, and so on.

What makes the pet industry different than most is that your product can reproduce itself.. and with Ball-pythons your customer base is MOST likely planning on doing just that.

Sorry to ramble but as much as I hate to see people who invest their passion and savings trying to make a good living doing something they enjoy have it spoiled... posts like this for some reason just bother me in some indescribable way. No offense to the OP I just hate business.

And being so passionate myself about a hobby of which the biggest excitements stem from new morphs being introduced into the population by ripping helpless animals out of their homes and forcing them into a lifetime of prostitution so we can sell off their babies for profit makes me feel strange on the inside. Too much talk about protecting the prices we can demand for such acts just makes me feel :rolleye2:... as I hunt down new genetics for my own experiments. But I guess that's life.

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Originally Posted by rabernet

First, check my signature link about cheap vs. quality for a more in depth explanation. I will ask what I feel my animals are worth to ME. If they don't sell because I believe my animals are better than average, then it's no skin off my teeth to hang onto them, because I don't produce more than I can comfortably keep.

I don't shop the price, I shop the animal and the looks of the animal and THEN I ask about price. I EXPECT a primo looking animal to be priced higher than your average animal.

My average babies will be offered at what the market is asking for average animals, but my primo animals will be priced accordingly.

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Would you not buy the least expensive snake tho if they were of the exact same quality?

When I shop I dont sacrifice quality, but I look for the grade A for the C grade price.

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Low Cost * High Quality = inexpensive = a great value

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I agree with 99% of the original post. I also see most of the points made by the members. (yes ive read every single post)

What really gets me about this... Why is it that most of the other "exotics" being bred & sold, which have been on the market for years as well, have not really gone down in price?

Ball pythons, corn snakes, geckos... These are the ones that are the biggest craze. The ones that tons of people have started breeding. These prices have dropped. But look at chameleons. Monitors. Basilisks. Frilled's. Many other python and boa species are also holding price as well. Especially the pure blood "locality" type boas etc..

One things for sure.. Supplies for all these animals does not seem to have dropped in price. Unless you buy frozen rodents online. There are very few wholesale supply companies with truly competitive prices for things like caging, bedding food, heat, therms, rheo's etc...

All these things are still quite expensive. Especially if you buy whats actually recommended & top of the line for the care of your animals.

My point is.. There are still plenty of people out there willing to pay big bucks for other animals. Even dogs and cats. Try to find a breed like a doberman or shepard for less than $1000.00

If you are looking for one that is guaranteeed, comes with a pedigree, paperwork on the parents & grandparents with true german blood lines, you wont find one for less than that..

Even cats. Ive always wanted an oriental shorthair. Also over a thousand dollars from a breeder. Do you have any idea how long the waiting list is for the breeders ive contacted in my area?

The prices do not have to fall this badly for ball pythons. The scenario story about "larry the liar" makes total sense. For a long time now we have known scammers are taking advantage of fauna and kingsnake. We can only hope those people who are "desperate" for the money & sell off their snakes for low low prices will stop convincing everyone else that their own prices must also fall..

Also keep in mind.. This is the time of year when prices fall the worst. Breeding season. Keep your new hatchlings til spring. Feed them up and sell them for what they are worth as well established youngsters when the speed of the market (as it is right now) slows up a little.

Just my :twocents:

.... whoops!

First of all thanks for the great post, I'm glad to see your passion here. Secondly, all the dog talk is interesting to me, it's a very cool comparison. I wish the Ball Python market was a lot more like the Dog market is now. You could go online and find, lets say a Husky, for $300-$400 from a smaller breeder with average or okay looking parents. In fact, you could find a lot of them for this price, and almost all will be from a small breeder whose dogs are not quite up to snuff (breed standard-wise I mean). On the other hand, you can't get a puppy with great breeding and champion bloodlines for anything less than 3 or 4 times that price; anywhere from the $1000-$1500 range would be completely standard and acceptable. People will and DO pay this price for a good dog. I think it's very odd that people can easily understand that you pay for quality in the dog world, but not in the snake world. It would be ludicrous for a prospective dog buyer to bring up the fact that they saw a Husky for sale from Joe Blow for $300, and expect that to bring down the price of the champion-line $1500 pup. Likewise, the breeder of that $1500 dog doesn't feel insecure about charging that price, as they are confident that they are producing only the best. It's tough for me to swallow that the Ball Python industry could be so drastically different from the Dog business--but it is! I don't understand why small scale breeders can't sell their spotty Spiders and drab Pastels for <$200, while bigger, more respectable breeders sell theirs for >$500. In a way the market is set up perfectly for a change, the variability in the quality of various morphs is astounding right now. As breeders we should all have a realistic perspective on the quality of our animals, and price accordingly. It could be done, and people would fork out the cash for better looking animals. Besides the novelty of simply breeding two animals (not to say it isn't COMPLETELY exciting to breed even normals, as I know it is), we are left to take pride in the quality of our animals. For those who just want to breed for fun, buy $100 animals. For those who want to take pride in having top quality, unique animals, and producing the same kind of offspring, pay >$1000. After all, aren't those two completely different goals...almost two completely different hobbies? Anywho, this was long winded to say the least--much longer that I had intended, haha. I hope this isn't out of line and/or offensive to anyone, and I hope that it makes sense to someone other than myself, as I've sometimes been known to rant nonsense.

Cheers,
-Matt

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Originally Posted by Draigess

I agree with 99% of the original post. I also see most of the points made by the members. (yes ive read every single post)...

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I should have done the same, haha, you beat me to my dog argument. I have to disagree with you though on other herps holding their value well. Chameleons are going for fractions of the prices they were, even as early as three years ago, and fewer and fewer species seem to be commonly available. Also, many geckos have dropped significantly in price (think Uroplatus sp., Lygodactylus sp., etc). I think right now there's a downward trend in the reptile market as a whole. This is all just my opinion though--I'm not trying to be contentious!

Cheers,
-Matt

I got into ball pythons because mainly because A) I love the animals, and really want some of those multi-gene morphs. Even more than that, I want to hatch those morphs myself. And B) because the money I had for college in the stock market was turning from dollars to pennies, and C) I get free rats from work (that was more of a determining factor in quantity I can handle).

I was really selective when I first picked the higher end animals I wanted to buy and I payed pretty high, but their offspring make it totally worth it, and now I certainly do stick with a few select breeders, even if I pay a little more, and I do not fill my racks as fast as some others, I do feel like my snakes are prettier and healthier.

My big problem, and IMO this is what causes the prices to plumet, is when you see someone who posts say... a 87gram male lesser platinum for $700(that would be last years prices), the snake does not sell, and four-eight months later that snake is still for sale, still around $700(maybe a little less), and now it weighs in at 300-800grams. Through those 4-8 months, people come to post their new hatchlings and see these animals that are way bigger than theirs, but priced where a hatchling should be. I think there are a lot of good quality BPs out there, and they sell for way less than they could, because their owners forget to add price to size.

I also notice that the price of proven females is a lot more stable than hatchlings, obviously proven morph females are not available a ton, but I think the price of each should reflect the other well. For instance, if a proven co-dom female is $2500, than it seems like a hatchling should cost closer to 1/3 of what that female is worth, not 1/10. Right now a hatchling female mojave seems to be worth about 1/10-1/8 of what a proven female is, that seems wrong.

It seems pretty obvious that people want good quality morphs to be worth a higher dollar that low quality morphs. Why do dogs get to be priced based on quality and snakes don't? well... dogs have standards, and registrations, and pedigrees, and all things other people have mentioned before me, and... this is the big one, they have shows where people go to let judges decide how high quality their animals are... they have this with rabbits, guinea pigs, horses, pigs, llamas, ferrets and god knows what else... so, maybe we should all start voting on what the think are the most important features of each morph, develop some guidelines, appoint a panel of well experienced judges, and start actually showing off the reptiles we love so much in.

Am I crazy, or would it be a lot easier to get high dollar for a snake that you can say "These albinos' sire was Zoo Med's Albino of the year at the American Reptile Competition three years in a row, and the mother was the number 2 pick for prettiest albino female at Daytona this year.", than "well I got the mother off craigslist as a het-albino, so I got the male off kingsnake from Dude McDuderson and made some albino babies."

I for one think it would be really fun to actually have reptile competitions, I wanna see what everyone thinks is the perfect example of a lemonblast and whatnot. And until there are some standards, registrations, pedigrees and all that for snake, basically until we all become a lot more snooty about the snakes we breed, and letting people we respect determine the value of our animals, we are all free to sell our animals for what ever we want.

If some "clubs" were developed for reptiles that act similar to the AKC and such, then there really would be separate markets for really serious breeders/hobbyists, and hobbyists who just like to watch snakes hatch.

I may have gone on too long here, but I hope I got some osrt of a point across.