My GOD! Do prices usually slice in half every year!!!!

I just can't believe the prices this year! I'm looking through kingsnake and breeders websites and I'm finding unbelievable prices!

A male Pied $800!!!!!!!!!!!!!
A male YB $75! That's cheaper than a male pastel! What on earth!
A male Albino $400!
A male orange ghost $175!

Is anyone else just plain heart wrenched about these prices?! On one hand I'm a little happy because I'll be able to afford some more morphs, but on the other hand I'm worried about how low morphs are going to go! I know prices drop like crazy, but I've only been apart of the BP world for a little over a year and these morphs are worth HALF as much as they were a year ago!

Does anyone know how much a male pastel cost just a few years ago?

Think Of Kingsnake like a swap meet.. Some times you find other peoples out right crap for pennys on the dollar and the you have people that know what they have and what its worth and that's what their asking for ir.

True. But IMO there isn't a bad example of the Pied, the other morphs do have good and bads-I will agree with that. The pied is just what your looking for. The pied for $800 was a low white pied, which a lot of people seem to like. I couldn't imagine letting a pied go for that cheap!

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Originally Posted by Isis

True. But IMO there isn't a bad example of the Pied, the other morphs do have good and bads-I will agree with that. The pied is just what your looking for. The pied for $800 was a low white pied, which a lot of people seem to like. I couldn't imagine letting a pied go for that cheap!

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Neither could I but as with all prices the slowly trickle down.. think of it this way Het Pied's were twice that when I got my female.. Now you can get the Visual for the cost of the hets..


It's all good if pieds get to be 250.00 I'll just make 250 of them. :D easy fix. :D as pirces go down production goes up..

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

It's all good if pieds get to be 250.00 I'll just make 250 of them. :D easy fix. :D as pirces go down production goes up..

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:rofl: Good plan!!!! :gj:

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Originally Posted by Isis

I just can't believe the prices this year! I'm looking through kingsnake and breeders websites and I'm finding unbelievable prices!

A male Pied $800!!!!!!!!!!!!!
A male YB $75! That's cheaper than a male pastel! What on earth!
A male Albino $400!
A male orange ghost $175!

Is anyone else just plain heart wrenched about these prices?! On one hand I'm a little happy because I'll be able to afford some more morphs, but on the other hand I'm worried about how low morphs are going to go! I know prices drop like crazy, but I've only been apart of the BP world for a little over a year and these morphs are worth HALF as much as they were a year ago!

Does anyone know how much a male pastel cost just a few years ago?

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last year at tinley i saw 2 pied males for 1000$ and 900$
at tinley last year i bought 2 albino females for 400$

as for the pastels i bough a pair in 06 for 500$
today i found some ads from KS i printed up this same time in 2008 and its got 200$ pastel females 500g pastel female for 600$
yb male for 100$

and those are not blowouts or anything like that.

Economy is bad they just want there snakes gone get your collection up while you can plus as everybody buys these morphs the less hard they are to get so price drops.

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Originally Posted by nixer

at tinley last year i bought 2 albino females for 400$

as for the pastels i bough a pair in 06 for 500$
today i found some ads from KS i printed up this same time in 2008 and its got 200$ pastel females 500g pastel female for 600$
yb male for 100$

and those are not blowouts or anything like that.

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Oh man! $400 for FEMALE albinos last year!!!! Holy cow! Talk about a good deal!

A pair of pastels for $500 just 3 years ago....wow they really have dropped!

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Originally Posted by Isis

A pair of pastels for $500 just 3 years ago....wow they really have dropped!

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LOL I paid that for a single male :D

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Originally Posted by Isis

Oh man! $400 for FEMALE albinos last year!!!! Holy cow! Talk about a good deal!

A pair of pastels for $500 just 3 years ago....wow they really have dropped!

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in 06 pastels were selling for way more than 500$

but i think you get the point it all depends on where you are and what your actual market deems fit for pricing. sure right now everyone can ship but come winter time alot of ppl do not ship or cant (weather) that also helps to dictate price

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

LOL I paid that for a single male :D

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now you know why i jumped on it

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

Think Of Kingsnake like a swap meet.. Some times you find other peoples out right crap for pennys on the dollar and the you have people that know what they have and what its worth and that's what their asking for ir.

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Your out of your mind ! A swap meet ? You can't be serious !

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Originally Posted by Haydenphoto

Your out of your mind ! A swap meet ? You can't be serious !

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100% serious..

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Originally Posted by freakie_frog

lol i paid that for a single male :d

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eeeek! :O

The prices on the pieds are a little extreme but everything else fits into how the market has been for a while now. I got a male pastel in 2007 for $115, a male spider in 2007 for $250, and a male yellowbelly in 2008 for $55 at a show...

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Originally Posted by aaramire

a male yellowbelly in 2008 for $55 at a show...

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:O WHAT!!!! MY GOD! Well maybe I'll be coming home with a YB after I got to the show here in IA.

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Originally Posted by Isis

:O WHAT!!!! MY GOD! Well maybe I'll be coming home with a YB after I got to the show here in IA.

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Yep, he was an Amir line too ;)

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Originally Posted by Isis

:O WHAT!!!! MY GOD! Well maybe I'll be coming home with a YB after I got to the show here in IA.

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and that makes my point that when prices come down the market does get larger because ppl who are not willing to spend thousands on a morph will buy once it becomes more affordable

just head north for prices lol. being Canada our prices are normaly double the States

The only people who should be worried about this is breeders IMO.

I hope one day you can pickup a pied for 200 bucks.

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Originally Posted by stefanivanski

just head north for prices lol. being Canada our prices are normaly double the States

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Oh dear, no thank you! Although, once I have babies to sell I might head your way!

At the Anaheim show a few weeks ago I was looking for a Lesser male - the prices ranged from $350 - $750!

prices sliced in half on the way to the other side of the convention center!

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Originally Posted by Isis

Is anyone else just plain heart wrenched about these prices?!

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It is simple supply and demand, no one should be surprised by the drops in morph prices.

Eventually all BP morphs will even out at just above normal prices. Take a look at corn snakes, the fact that you can get multiple recessive gene animals for under $40 is a testament to supply vs. demand.

Supply of morphs grows ridiculously fast. Demand grows as well, but not anywhere near as fast. For every person who produced 6 albinos last year, do you think there could ever possibly be 6 more people who decide to spend $800 on an albino?

Don't forget that the ball python hobby is a pyramid scheme. Know your place on the pyramid and be happy with it. If you're not happy, then either get out or move up. I'm personally happy having no plans to make money on my pets ever, that is why for me this is a hobby and not a business, and why I have a job to pay for it.

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Originally Posted by scutechute

prices sliced in half on the way to the other side of the convention center!

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Hahaha. I'm waiting on my lesser male but I got him for 400 from Adam. I think last year I saw them going for about 700.

But as supply and demand goes; not long ago double traits were the in thing, now people are going for triple traits, and this will continue until we get snakes with just about everything under the sun in their genes. Every time one of these snakes it bred you end up with a handful of traits in the mix and could get multiple trait snakes out of it or you could get a lot of single trait snakes.

As people breed and create single trait snakes the price goes down, obviously, and as was stated before this will continue until they are around normal costs.

How about Mojaves? They were 450 up a year ago and just recently I got my female for $180, less expensive than my male!

I think it has to do with the economy being so bad, hobbies and the like are considered luxury goods--when it gets better, the prices will probably go back up.

If ya got the money, now's a great time to be buying.

You really think prices will go back up? I think the general agreed price will stay the same (common cost) while perhaps the individuals will sell for more, but I doubt the prices are all going to jump 50$ on account of the economy getting better.

If anything the rate of price reduction will reduce, or better yet stop.

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Originally Posted by Oxylepy

You really think prices will go back up? I think the general agreed price will stay the same (common cost) while perhaps the individuals will sell for more, but I doubt the prices are all going to jump 50$ on account of the economy getting better.

If anything the rate of price reduction will reduce, or better yet stop.

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I actually think it would, because when the economy gets better, people will have more money to buy and would be more willing to buy as well. Considering the ball python market is based on supply/demand, more people buying means the prices will be driven up.

Of course it's possible for the breeders to respond by producing more and the prices will go back down again. I'm sure some breeders have cut back the past two years in response to the crashed economy and if it gets better they'll produce more again.

I thought the prices I've been seeing were pretty ridiculous too, and more because they're willing to sell the morphs at a lower price in order to have customers even consider buying.

Just my opinion, but no one can read the future.

I dont care what people are listing their animals for. After that price drops thread, my YB is not going to be sold for less than 120, and my 900+gm pastel male, high blushing, low yellow isn't going to go for less than 150. I am not going to take part in this price drop frenzy. Im fine keeping them as pets, and they might be part of a project later. Screw the economy, you gotta spend to mend!
Here's the animals just to show what's going for what...


Natural light no flash pastel:
http://hphotos-snc1.fbcdn.net/hs246...._2317266_n.jpg
His yellow can not be captured in any photos I take, which is a real shame, because he DOES look way better.
YB

http://hphotos-snc1.fbcdn.net/hs137...._3425981_n.jpg

That butter in the pics section of mine that i recently piced up, He is a proven breeder i got for 450. THEN, even better, i picked up a male albino at that show for 300...i couldnt pass that up. But its very sad considering i'm hoping to produce some next year

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Originally Posted by mainbutter

It is simple supply and demand, no one should be surprised by the drops in morph prices.

Eventually all BP morphs will even out at just above normal prices. Take a look at corn snakes, the fact that you can get multiple recessive gene animals for under $40 is a testament to supply vs. demand.

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I think we're still several years from that, especially with recessives. But yeah, once people start breeding homo x homo and producing several clutches of all pieds, and so forth their prices will drop.

But even with corns, new genes and new combos still fetch a high price (for corns), and with bps that is where it will be at: double and triple recessive morphs, and triple and quadruple co-doms.

I remember when I first got into the hobby in late 04, pastel females were listed on some breeders' websites for $2000. Hahaha, I remember that because I found a waaaaay old picture with a price that was dated, which I had printed out because I was "i wish..."ing a while back. But in any case--yeah. Sometimes I look at the prices and want to cringe at the way they've plummeted.

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Originally Posted by Blue Apple Herps

I think we're still several years from that, especially with recessives. But yeah, once people start breeding homo x homo and producing several clutches of all pieds, and so forth their prices will drop.

But even with corns, new genes and new combos still fetch a high price (for corns), and with bps that is where it will be at: double and triple recessive morphs, and triple and quadruple co-doms.

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Oh yeah, while there are $40 multiple recessive gene corns out there, there are also $700 and beyond animals as well.

It doesn't take a math whiz to know there will always be expensive animals with all the possible combos, but it also doesn't take an economist to know that as more animals of a particular base morph or particular combo are produced, prices will drop. There are fewer people coming into the hobby than snakes being produced, and that fact will always mean prices on currently expensive animals will drop.

Where are you guys finding such low prices? For example, all the breeders' pages I look at regularly have Mojaves for nothing less than $300, which is about the same as last year.

I'd be very scared of buying the morphs mentioned here for such low prices. It triggers my "too good to be true" instinct; I'd rather pay a little more for a morph from a trusted breeder.

There are deals to be had everywhere.. some websites advertise them, kingsnake and other classifieds can be places as well, not to mention just negotiating with breeders online, over the phone, or at expos. The best deals aren't advertised much because they are snapped up pretty quick, or come from negotiating, or from unadvertised prices/animals.

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

Think Of Kingsnake like a swap meet.. Some times you find other peoples out right crap for pennys on the dollar and the you have people that know what they have and what its worth and that's what their asking for ir.

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YES!!! :gj: I

I would add that I strongly believe that over the next 2-3 years we will see morphs/combos that look better as adults -- and graded animals/selectively bred morphs as the the 2 HOT TICKETS in the Ball market. :D

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Originally Posted by Eventide

Where are you guys finding such low prices? For example, all the breeders' pages I look at regularly have Mojaves for nothing less than $300, which is about the same as last year.

I'd be very scared of buying the morphs mentioned here for such low prices. It triggers my "too good to be true" instinct; I'd rather pay a little more for a morph from a trusted breeder.

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the prices i posted were all from great ppl to deal with some of which i dealt with before

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Originally Posted by Seneschal

I remember when I first got into the hobby in late 04, pastel females were listed on some breeders' websites for $2000. Hahaha, I remember that because I found a waaaaay old picture with a price that was dated, which I had printed out because I was "i wish..."ing a while back. But in any case--yeah. Sometimes I look at the prices and want to cringe at the way they've plummeted.

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Oh my goodness that is CRAZY! $2000 for a pastel in 04 WOW!


So I'm thinking as I read this.....In the future are people going to start having a bunch of pastels instead of normals? (or other inexpensive morphs) What on earth is going to happen to all the normals? Will people start breeding clutches with no normals because supers are relatively inexpensive that way they won't have to worry about selling normals??? Even presently it seems pointless to own normal males, or at least more than one, unless you want them for pets.

I guess we will find out in 5 years at this rate! :D

IMO, the morph market dropping somewhat isn't such a bad thing, because it's starting to put morphs into the hands of the REAL customers -- the pet owners.

A pet owner isn't going to take his one morph ball python and breed it to seven normal females and produce thirty new morph babies to wholesale at dirt cheap prices and drive the market down. A pet owner is just going to give you your money for the snake, take it home and enjoy it. (And take good care of it, we hope!)

The problem with the market as it has been is that it is, as has already been stated, a pyramid scheme. There have been no "end users." Everybody buys in with the intention of making their money back.

I really don't think that's gonna last. I predict that sooner or later (probably somewhat sooner), those folks who got into this hoping to make a quick buck are going to jump ship. That may plunge the prices down even further for a little bit, but once prices are affordable then the pet owners will want to start picking up pretty morph BPs as opposed to regular ol' normal ones, and those dedicated breeders who have stuck it out will still have a market.

In addition, yes, I've said it before and so have others -- I do agree that really high-quality examples of morphs will start to command much higher prices versus lousy examples of the same morph. Maybe there even will be shows, with judges, or contests -- who knows!

But seriously -- other than the herp hobby, what other animal hobby do you know where more people are in it as BREEDERS than pet owners? Of all the chinchillas I've sold, I can only think of one pair that went to someone who intended to breed them. Of the snakes I've sold, I think the vast majority went to people who intended to breed.

I think part of the problem is the mentality that if you own a snake, you "ought to" breed it (or might as well breed it, or whatever). I wouldn't say there's a snake "overpopulation problem" like there is with dogs 'n' cats, but it is creating a weird market, that's for sure. I don't think it'll hold, though. It can't, one way or another.

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Originally Posted by Isis

In the future are people going to start having a bunch of pastels instead of normals? (or other inexpensive morphs)

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yes.

It is simple natural selection at work. The morphs are more likely to have offspring.

Again look at corns, morphs up the wahzoo, petco hardly has any normal corns ever, pretty much all they sell nowadays are "fancy" corns.

I wouldn't change my normals for anything in the world (except perhaps a Mystic Potion). I don't know. I think prices will still keep dropping until recessives stop at about 250-350, and double recessives 800-1000, and co-dom & dom about 50-150. Multiple mixes, complex morphs will still fetch a nice buck ie. Axanthic killer Bee.

Prices can not slice in half every year, but i don't doubt prices will continue to fall until they stabilize somewhere near the numbers mentioned above. I doubt the economic crisis has as much to do with the lowering of prices as the supply flood in the market. Because of this supply flood (which started a while back) almost anyone can enter and within two years he can be breeding and selling morphs.

Albinos in 06-07 were around $800-1000. If you picked up 2 females, one male albinos in 06, you could have had 4 clutches of eggs, or around 16 100% Albino eggs. That (at today's price of $450ea) is still $7,200 earnings in two years from a $3,000 investment. (You covered your investment and also got 110% return in two years, i don't know any banks that will give you half that much, the stock market in a good year gives you about 22%) Plus you also get a nice pet/display animal.

¿Is anyone surprised why so many people started breeding? I'm not, and i am glad to see prices go down. I believe they are artificially high, I also think lower earnings will lead there to be less people that are only in it for the money.

Yeah, i see what you guys mean. I got a 320 gram SUBADULT albino female for only 450.

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

LOL I paid that for a single male :D

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I paid more than that for Winston!

No, the prices don't usually dive as much as they have this year. A bum economy is causing people to bail out--that means a lot more snakes flooding the market than would normally be there. Breeders operating on a narrow margin, panicked by slow sales, have lowered their prices to get the new animals out.

I tried to pick prices in the middle of the market, and it seems to be working. Don't worry, my albinos are not $400. That would be too low--they actually are selling for more than that. The folks selling them that low are undercutting for a quick sell, that's all. There will always be a few people doing that, and if you can pick up something worthwhile from one, that's great--do be careful, though, to check their reputation first.

You can almost ALWAYS get insane deals at a show, if it's decent sized. But that's what they are--deals, not an example of the going market rate.

This thread has been going on in one way or another for years, and people have debated the reason why just as long. At the end of the day there are a multitude of reasons why this happens, and the reality is it is not going to change .

The only thing I will add, that seems to never get brought up, is how poorly new keepers are solicited. There are a few breeders who make a valiant effort at marketing and bringing new people in but they are few and far between. Only one of the big boys goes to the big shows anymore. Only two regularly put up youtube videos. I dont know of anyone who really markets outside the already existing niches that exist in the hobby already. And for the small breeders like myslef I dont see them, as a whole, doing a thing to bring in new keepers.

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Originally Posted by nixer

the prices i posted were all from great ppl to deal with some of which i dealt with before

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Ah, okay. :) I probably don't get around enough.

If you buy into Balls thinking you will make a killing, you are going to be sadly dissapointed. With Balls, EVERY customer turns into a Competitor. It is unlike almost any other business. Most Ball breeders are not business majors, who thought up a business plan prior to buying their Balls, much less breeding them. Most start out with a Pastel and wake up in a year with 75 mouths to feed. Most start out cheap, buying tons of male morphs and normal females because that is the cheapest way to start out. Then, after sitting on 20 male Mojaves, 15 male Pastels, 8 male Cinns, they have a going out of business sale and move on.

The bottoming out prices are partly to blame due to the economy, but mostly to do with poor planning by fly by night "breeders" who think they can make back the $20K they borrowed from their inlaws in a year.

Buy Morph females, double co dom males, and simple recessive pairs.....don't overspend, don't overproduce, start out slow, and you will still have fun like me, 10 years in.

Dave

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Originally Posted by Bill Buchman

YES!!! :gj: I

I would add that I strongly believe that over the next 2-3 years we will see morphs/combos that look better as adults -- and graded animals/selectively bred morphs as the the 2 HOT TICKETS in the Ball market. :D

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I agree! Selective breeding will win in the end! :D

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Originally Posted by EmberBall

If you buy into Balls thinking you will make a killing, you are going to be sadly dissapointed. With Balls, EVERY customer turns into a Competitor. It is unlike almost any other business. Most Ball breeders are not business majors, who thought up a business plan prior to buying their Balls, much less breeding them. Most start out with a Pastel and wake up in a year with 75 mouths to feed. Most start out cheap, buying tons of male morphs and normal females because that is the cheapest way to start out. Then, after sitting on 20 male Mojaves, 15 male Pastels, 8 male Cinns, they have a going out of business sale and move on.

The bottoming out prices are partly to blame due to the economy, but mostly to do with poor planning by fly by night "breeders" who think they can make back the $20K they borrowed from their inlaws in a year.

Buy Morph females, double co dom males, and simple recessive pairs.....don't overspend, don't overproduce, start out slow, and you will still have fun like me, 10 years in.

Dave

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Great post, Dave! You hit the nail on the head. I've said it before and I'll say it again, I love seeing the fly by nighters and their collection sales. Gives me a warm and fuzzy feeling!

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Originally Posted by EmberBall

If you buy into Balls thinking you will make a killing, you are going to be sadly dissapointed. With Balls, EVERY customer turns into a Competitor. It is unlike almost any other business.

Buy Morph females, double co dom males, and simple recessive pairs.....don't overspend, don't overproduce, start out slow, and you will still have fun like me, 10 years in.

Dave

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Originally Posted by Eventide

Where are you guys finding such low prices? For example, all the breeders' pages I look at regularly have Mojaves for nothing less than $300, which is about the same as last year.

I'd be very scared of buying the morphs mentioned here for such low prices. It triggers my "too good to be true" instinct; I'd rather pay a little more for a morph from a trusted breeder.

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That's something I can definitely agree with, which is why it's necessary to thoroughly check the quality of an animal (a mojave is a visual het and cannot be mistaken for a normal) before you buy it. That's part of the reason why I enjoy going to the expos because I'm unsure of the temperment and quality of the snake from online pictures/photos/descriptions. It would just be my luck if I ended up buying a super aggressive (however unlikely it may be) ill ball python.

You also have to remember the prices, unless stated otherwise, are not firm--you can haggle and a lot of breeders don't mind you asking whether they'll take a discount for cash. That goes for online as well.

=D

Haggling, once you get the hang out it, is quite fun!

Remember to ask what they're eating--sometimes unstarted (pre-shed/week old) babies can go for very cheap--but you'll have to be careful because you might come across a non-eater. It'll depend on how well you know what to look for in a healthy baby.

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Originally Posted by Eventide

Where are you guys finding such low prices? For example, all the breeders' pages I look at regularly have Mojaves for nothing less than $300, which is about the same as last year.

I'd be very scared of buying the morphs mentioned here for such low prices. It triggers my "too good to be true" instinct; I'd rather pay a little more for a morph from a trusted breeder.

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I feel like I have gotten fairly good deals, and all my animals come from trusted breeders...