Culling Healthy Animals

Let me first explain that I am not trying to start any fights, but I am trying to get some open, and honest debate going on a topic that I feel is long overdue in our Hobby. It is my position, and it has been for a long time, that culling of perfectly healthy animals is a good thing when apposed to just dumping massive numbers of them into the public marketplace.

Below is a post that I made in another forum where we are debating this very thing. I am begging you all PLEASE do not fight, and keep this in the tone that it is intended, which is a fair, and reasonable debate on the pro's and con's of what we, as serious hobbiest's do to our own hobby by breeding enourmous amounts of these animals every year.

I should preface this by saying that I do cull a small percentage of animals that I feel are better served by being used as feeders for my Monitor Lizard, and my Arrowanna fish, rather than sent out into the marketplace as junk snakes. I should also point out that I work with Carpet pythons alot, so I am talking alot about hybridized, ugly brown carpets, but this arguement can be made for Normal Balls as well. So here goes..please read below, and post what you think is right or wrong?

"I love this debate, because it's all about feelings. These are ANIMALS that we work with as a hobby. They are not my pet like my dog. I probably should have said I love my hobby, as that is much more accurate than I love my snakes. I don't cry and get all upset if I loose a snake...but I bawl when I loose a dog. They are two different things to me. A dog is a part of my family, my pet. My snakes are my hobby. This is a hobby that I enjoy, and I won't jeapordize my hobby to make you guys feel better about killing off unwanted animals (which is good for the hobby). There is ethically, absoutely, no difference, between breeding rats and feeding them off, and breeding snakes and feeding them off. Its done with hundreds if not thousand of species of animals all over the world, every day. Snakes are no different. You like snakes...so it doens't feel right, but ethically, it absolutely is.

I would take it one further and argue that, I am doing ugly snakes a service by ending their lives quickly rather than letting them changes hands from owner to owner dozens of times, until eventually they die from abuse or worse, they escape or are let loose (both hurt our hobby enormously). This is what happens to the majority of ugly, unwanted animals, including snakes. So under the guise of you loving your animals, you send tens of thousands of them (unwanted) off each year, to die much more prolonged deaths, than merely being eaten by a natural predator. This decision is about your feelings, not logical thinking and/or the betterment of the hobby. It's about your heart, whch I totally get, but is the reason the hobby is in the state that it's in.

Now that all said. I think you guys think that I just kill off everything that I produce thats not a morph. Thats not what I said. I said if I have really ugly, unsellable stock, (which is a pretty small percentage) that has no chance of being purchased by someone that I know will care for the animal properly, I see no reason to not feed it to my lizard or my giant fish. Snakes are prey for both animals in the wild. Especialy baby snakes. It's completely normal. No different than deciding one day to throw them one of my mice or rats.

BTW, before you call me money hungry only wanting to keep the best, easiest selling snakes, keep in mind that thats counterproductive. I can always find a jobber to buy my left overs each season for $40 per animals. 10 snakes times $40 each is still $400. Thats alot of cash. It's not about the money. It's about weather or not I think it's a good thing for the hobby to be sending out animals that I know are undesirable and, in most cases, destined to have not so great lives anyway.

You guys want to see all of the designer stuff ,and you want to work on all the projects for double, triple, even quadruple mutations...then you have to deal with the truth which is that in order to make those, you produce lots of normal snakes (in every species, not just carpets). If you think dumping them into the marketplace is good for the animals, and good for the hobby, you'd be dead wrong."

S~

I morally cannot get past the idea of killing a healthy animal that many many responsible people would gladly provide a forever home for.

I feel that if you are producing these animals, then you have taken on the responsibility of either keeping or finding responsible forever homes for every life that you produce.

To me, your analogy that feeding off these "less than acceptable" animals is no different than breeding rodents as feeders doesn't cut the mustard. If you were specifically breeding snakes for food (like rodent breeders do with rodents) or if your pets would not eat any other prey item than snakes I might be able to understand. But this is not the case, you are making a choice to end a life that doesn't have to be ended. You also are not feeding off ALL of your offspring, just the ones that you personally don't like.

Blaming the "irresponsible public" for the willful killing of a perfectly healthy animal has always been a perverted sense of logic that I've never been able to understand. Pointing a finger and saying that if I don't kill these animals someone else will or someone will let it go or someone will let it suffer is complete crap ... the exact same thing could happen with the animals that you put a high value on and decide not to kill. Maybe the solution is to screen your customers more thoroughly, maybe you shouldn't produce as many offspring, maybe you shouldn't breed at all. But I can say with absolute certainty that justifying the killing of a perfectly healthy animal by blaming the public at large is pathetic.

The bottom line is that I value life ... all life ... I despise the idea of ending a healthy life for any reason, even if that reason is feeding my animals ... but there is a cycle of life that I have respect for and until an alternative solution presents itself, I must follow. But playing god by picking and choosing which lives have value and which lives are acceptable to destroy is something that I personally don't believe that any person has the right to do.

Blessings,

-adam

Adam thank you for saving me a lot of typing :gj: I whole heartedly agree...

I'm gonna start off by letting folks know the staff will be watching this thread very closely. It's a hot topic issue that can easily erupt into something very ugly. If it does, it may get sent to QT, or it may get pulled entirely. Just a heads up.

As for the topic at hand...I see two issues I'd like to comment on based on the OP's initial statement.

One...snakes as feeders: This is something that can be emotionally difficult to deal with for those who emotionally love their snakes...but the OP is right in that it is no different than rodents (lots of folks love mice and rats just as much as we love our snakes)...lizards...frogs...and other feeder animals. I may never choose to use a snake as a feeder animal (I'd never keep an animal that HAD to eat a snake)....but I also wouldn't hold it against anyone for using snakes as feeders for legitimate reasons.

Two...loving the hobby vs. loving the animals: That, I find exception to. The whole POINT of the hobby is the animals. If a person is "into the hobby" but not in love with the animals....well, the only other reason I can fathom is the money. :confuzd: Maybe I misunderstood. That disagreement with your statement doesn't change my opinion of the point of using snakes as feeder animals....but it DOES color my perception of your motivations for your argument.

I think it's wrong to assume "ugly" animals are doomed to horrible lives just because they don't live up to your personal standards of beauty. If we take on the task of breeding these animals, then we should ACCEPT the responsibility for the lives we bring into this world. Unhealthy animals should be culled mercifully. Healthy animals may be used for feeders if necessary. But to justify culling healthy animals "for the good of the hobby" is little more than a flippant attitude about life that, unfortunately, is rampant in this and other animal-breeding hobbies.

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

I feel that if you are producing these animals, then you have taken on the responsibility of either keeping or finding responsible forever homes for every life that you produce.

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So when you produce 100 (i don't know if you do or not, its a rhetorical question) normal Ball pythons, and you wholsale them for $10 each to a jobber, does that qualify as taking responsibility, or is that just making a quick buck? Be honest with yourself I emplore you.

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

To me, your analogy that feeding off these "less than acceptable" animals is no different than breeding rodents as feeders doesn't cut the mustard.

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Why not? I am nto freezing them or chopping their heads off. I am choosing to use them as feeders to care for my other animals.

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Blaming the "irresponsible public" for the willful killing of a perfectly healthy animal has always been a perverted sense of logic that I've never been able to understand. Pointing a finger and saying that if I don't kill these animals someone else will or someone will let it go or someone will let it suffer is complete crap ... the exact same thing could happen with the animals that you put a high value on and decide not to kill. Maybe the solution is to screen your customers more thoroughly, maybe you shouldn't produce as many offspring, maybe you shouldn't breed at all. But I can say with absolute certainty that justifying the killing of a perfectly healthy animal by blaming the public at large is pathetic.

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In your opinion. My opinion is, it's more ethical of me to take the responsibility and make the choice to feed them off. Why would I want to sell them off cheap, with no sayso on where they go and who cares for them, when they are, based on market value, not likely to have a high quality of life? I would argue you are not taking responsibility when you do that. It's much easier to just sell them. (Again, you being the guy who may, or may not produce a bunch of unwanted snakes) Expensive animals are much more likely to be cared for properly. Thats just basic common sense. There are exceptions to every rule...but you have to look at this from the majority point of view.

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

The bottom line is that I value life ... all life ... I despise the idea of ending a healthy life for any reason, even if that reason is feeding my animals ... but there is a cycle of life that I have respect for and until an alternative solution presents itself, I must follow. But playing god by picking and choosing which lives have value and which lives are acceptable to destroy is something that I personally don't believe that any person has the right to do.

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You are already playing god by deciding to breed reptiles in captivity. These animals do not need you to do that for them I assure you. you do it for personal pleasure. When you make that decision, you also make the decision to feed and care for them. Why then are you not willing to take the next responsbile step, both for the animals and the hobby, and figure out a reasonalble way to deal with the offspring...both desirable, and undesirable? Is ti really a good idea, good for the animals, and good for our hobby to send out tens if not hundreds of thousands of cheap, ugly snakes into a marketplace full of impulse buyers?


S~

I understand breeding snakes as feeders. Seems like a waste to me (considering rodents are so much cheaper). However, I cannot understand how someone can breed anything as a hobby (be it fancy mice, dogs, snakes) and cull healthy animals because they are 'ugly'. I would not purchase from a breeder that I am aware practices culling of healthy animals. To me this exhibits a disrespect of life in general.

I'm not a breeder, but I am an avid fan of animal welfare so I'll chime in and share my feelings. I won't argue, but debate is never unwelcome.

As far as feeding snakes to other animals, I don't have a problem. I feel like breeding rats for consumption of animals is the same as breeding cows for us to eat. Theoretically, breeding snakes to feed animals isn't that much different. I feel, however, if its an animal that eats snake in the wild or as a natural food source, thats fine. I do disagree if you are breeding snakes to feed animals that like meat but do not eat snake meat. My only feeling is that you should feed the animal its normal food source and if you can not, then do not keep it as a captive animal.

Now, moving on to ugly snakes. I am an avid believer that the aesthetics of animals, or the beauty of them, is absolutely NO reason to cull a snake, or any animal for that purpose. In my opinion you can not be 100% sure that the animal will have a bad life if someone buys it. For example, pretend there is a breeder that breeds for designer animals, BPS for example, and ends up with a bunch of normals. I, as a buyer, would buy this animal and give a good life. Just because it is 'ugly' to you does not mean it is indicative that any potential buyer, me included, would not care for it. This is almost the same logic that people that don't pay for expensive bedding will not care for their snakes the same way that someone who pays $11 for a bag of bedding will. If you are taking the initiative to breed, period, then you need to be prepared for the consequences. Every clutch is not going to be 5 designer snakes. Thus, I feel that if you are breeding you need to be prepared BEFORE you begin with a plan for the "non-designer" animals. Just like you should if you are a breeder for dogs or cats or anything. These are lives that are being made because you want to make them, hobby or for money or what. You did it, not the animal. You took the creation into your own hands because these are your animals and you had to put them together to breed. So you need to know what to do with the "unwanteds" as you call them. I just don't think there is a real 100% opportunity for you to know that "...you'd be dead wrong." for selling these snakes. I don't see how it isn't good for the hobby to find a home for an unwanted. How does this jeopardize the hobby? Isn't the hobby breeding? Isn't there many a person that says breeding should be done for the betterment of the animal? In this case producing healthy morphs that may not have existed before? So, again, I don't understand how getting rid of this normal, passing it on to someone who may or may not care for it (again, you don't know) is going to harm the breeding and passing on of the designer morphs.

Now, I understand this is a hobby for you, not a pet, but you must still understand these are lives, rather its a pretty snake or an ugly snake. It may not be your dog for you but the ones you cull that aren't pretty may be a dog to someone else.

Thats just my opinion. I must say, I am mainly utilitarian as far as animals go (I do believe in relationships, however, with animals) so I get that these animals do something for you. I just have to weigh the pros and the cons, and in my opinion as far as ugly animals go, the cons don't weigh out.

So when you cull snakes, they become feeders?

As long as you're not being wasteful in ending the animals life, I'm ok with your actions.

The attitude towards the hobby and your animals however is a little unfortunate. My reptiles are both my hobby and my pets. I care for them every bit as much as I have cared for social, cuddly, fuzzy, warm pets I have had in the past. They are not simply living art to me.

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Originally Posted by ShawnC

Why would I want to sell them off cheap, with no sayso on where they go and who cares for them, when they are, based on market value, not likely to have a high quality of life?
S~

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I'd like to know why you would have no say so when its your animals to give, and where is your proof that low market value=low quality of life.

I, like most of you, do not LIKE to kill things. Even feeder rodents. Thats why I feed/cull to other critters. Somehow it feels more natural than just killing them for no purpose, and I don't feel so bad. I just see this is as a cradle to grave reponsibility as a breeder. If you want to breed snakes, you are going to have to deal responsibly with ALL of the offspring...not just the ones that sell well. Dumping them into the marketplace I think is bad from every angle. It just sucks to cull them, so we don't do it...but I think we should.

S~

Personally I would rather quit breeding all together than cull healthy animals simply because they are as you called them “ugly” ……….but again that might be just me :rolleyes:

There is a difference between breeding for food and doing what you are doing. You are using the breeding for food as a justification, if that make you feel better about it, good for you but what you do is not breeding for food, you are breeding and disposing of what you consider not being worth your time.

And I will add you can do whatever YOU want I am not hear to tell people what they should do with THEIR animals howeer personnally I would never support someone who does this which means no business from me.

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Originally Posted by MsPrada

I'd like to know why you would have no say so when its your animals to give, and where is your proof that low market value=low quality of life.

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I actually think that the people that spend $20 bucks on a normal male at an expo are buying a pet. They might actually get taken better care of in the long run.

I know of a few people that breed snakes to feed off to king cobras and corals that they can not get to switch to rats. I see nothing wrong with that. But alot of people want to get into snakes for the get rich quick theme and then they find thereselves with 100 pythons that they can not sell. And thats just something that you need to consider before you ever put anything together to lock up.

It sounds like you're expecting everyone to share your philosophy on "responsible" breeding. :confused: You don't want an open debate...you want to convince everyone that what you're doing is "responsible." Sorry, though...MOST of the folks who participate here (and on sites like this one) have a lot more respect for life than that.

You accuse them of being irresponsible because they don't choose the cheap and easy way out of raising, feeding, and marketing the "undesirables" in their clutches? Seriously???

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Originally Posted by MsPrada

I'd like to know why you would have no say so when its your animals to give, and where is your proof that low market value=low quality of life.

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You don't have to be a genious to figure this out. The price of something in dollars is a fairly good indicator of how popular (wanted) something is. I am not saying that normals don't make excellent pets, or that you should not give these animals away. All I am saying is that flooding the marketplace with them doens't do them, or us, any good. It's not a money thing, it's a "whats best for the animals" thing.

Any math nerds out there? I wish I could figure this out, but I am not a math guy. If you go back 20 years, and figure the estimated numbers of normal ball pythons that have come into the countryeach year, and still do...then add to it how many are produced each year...then figure that the average lifespan across the board should be 12 years (they can live for twice that, so to include for early death due to disease and accidents) how many balls pythons should be in the US today? I woud guess that it's tens of Millions, if not more. And those would be adults over 3 years old..not counting babies.

Do you really think there are that many? What do you think happened to them all? They are not valued they way you and I as snake nerds value them, and they are released into the wild (HR669 fighters), neglected, or flatly killed would be my assumption.

S~

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Originally Posted by JLC

It sounds like you're expecting everyone to share your philosophy on "responsible" breeding. :confused: You don't want an open debate...you want to convince everyone that what you're doing is "responsible." Sorry, though...MOST of the folks who participate here (and on sites like this one) have a lot more respect for life than that.

You accuse them of being irresponsible because they don't choose the cheap and easy way out of raising, feeding, and marketing the "undesirables" in their clutches? Seriously???

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No not at all. I am saying don't beat me up when I am doing what I think is better for the animals and the hobby. A debate means you guys argue your points, and I argue mine. I am supposed to try to convince you...that my job as the debator.

And I think the easy way is to take all your unwanted animals and blow them out for $10 to every kid who probalby wants a pythons when he's 15...but when he's 20...he can't get rid of it...then what happens? Thats all I am saying...there is life for these animals after they leave your possesion..that doesn't make you less responsible for them...you created them. So what happens to them begins, and ends, because of you.

S~

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Originally Posted by ShawnC

it's a "whats best for the animals" thing.

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On what planet is death better for a living creature than life?

Blessings,

-adam

I could swing both ways on this issue. I understand Adam's point and I understand the OP's point.

Pertaining to the OP post: Back when I used to keep Burms, my number one source of food was from a rabbit breeder. Not just any rabbit breeder, she bred for show. She felt that these animals had no worth to her if they weren't show quality(can you blame her). She was so caught up with maintaining show quality animals that she had no time for average looking animals, as long as the animal served life in some way it was ok with her.

As for Adams arguement: Why would you breed animals if you didn't have room in your heart for every single one of them? I myself, have created a place in my heart for every single one of my animals.

In conclusion, I feel that if you choose beautiful animals in the beginning, the majority of your offspring will have desireable traits. Especially if you choose to breed animals that you like, not what others like. You can't help but have some kind of bond with all of them. On the other hand, if you have other animals that NATURALLY prey on items that you are producing, then, why not give them a treat every now and then?

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Originally Posted by ShawnC

You don't have to be a genious to figure this out. The price of something in dollars is a fairly good indicator of how popular (wanted) something is. I am not saying that normals don't make excellent pets, or that you should not give these animals away. All I am saying is that flooding the marketplace with them doens't do them, or us, any good. It's not a money thing, it's a "whats best for the animals" thing.

Any math nerds out there? I wish I could figure this out, but I am not a math guy. If you go back 20 years, and figure the estimated numbers of normal ball pythons that have come into the country, and still do...then add to it how many are produced each year...then figure that the average lifespan across the board should be 12 years (they can live for twice that, so to include for early death due to disease and accidents) how many balls pythons should be in the US today? I woud guess that it's tens of Millions, if not more. And those would be adults over 3 years old..not counting babies.

Do you really think there are that many? What do you thinkhappens to them all? They are not valued they way you and I as snake nerds value them, and they are let go, neglected, or flatly killed would be my assumption.

S~

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Wow. Are you insinuating that my intelligence is low because I do NOT share your opinions? Because I've personally seen normals that are treated well? Again, under your logic if someone spends less on something they don't care for it as much? So, I pay $10 for a blender that does the same thing as a $50 one and I treat it like junk? Thats your logic, not mine. A normal to ME and LOTS of other people, who you apparently just don't know, does the same as a morph if its for a pet. Its a snake, its a BP, it has a great personality and is still very BEAUTIFUL, and we can pay less for it. Don't try and force your logic on me or anyone else just because you don't have the proof I asked for.

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Originally Posted by ShawnC

who probalby wants a pythons when he's 15...but when he's 20...he can't get rid of it...then what happens?

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Where I come from, responsible breeders let their customers know that any animal they produce is welcome back at any point. Selling animals comes with moral responsibilities and making sure that animals you produce always have a home must be at the top of the list.

You produced them, and inevitably you're responsible for their lives ... forever.

Blessings,

-adam

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Originally Posted by ShawnC

No not at all. I am saying don't beat me up when I am doing what I think is better for the animals and the hobby. A debate means you guys argue your points, and I argue mine. I am supposed to try to convince you...that my job as the debator.

And I think the easy way is to take all your unwanted animals and blow them out for $10 to every kid who probalby wants a pythons when he's 15...but when he's 20...he can't get rid of it...then what happens? Thats all I am saying...there is life for these animals after they leave your possesion..that doesn't make you less responsible for them...you created them. So what happens to them begins, and ends, because of you.

S~

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Fair enough.

I think your argument about the possibility of an animal ending up unwanted and therefore is better off dead is completely illogical, though. And given all you've said so far, my impression is not of someone truly trying to figure out what is best for the animals or for the "industry"...but someone trying to justify his own lazy choices in dealing with extra babies.

If you feel that strongly that death is preferable to a chance at life as a pet in someone's home, then maybe you shouldn't be producing any at all? ALL the animals you produce and allow out of your own personal sphere of responsibility are now at risk for being neglected, abused, and abandoned. How "pretty" you judge one animal to be over another has very little to do with those chances. People spend lots of money on expensive toys all the time and then neglect and abandon them when they get bored with them. Why should your "pretty" snakes be any different? Why should they not just get put down for no other reason than that they were born at your direction???

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Where I come from, responsible breeders let their customers know that any animal they produce is welcome back at any point. Selling animals comes with moral responsibilities and making sure that animals you produce always have a home must be at the top of the list.

You produced them, and inevitably you're responsible for their lives ... forever.

Blessings,

-adam

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x2. I know dog breeders that do the same. You can't keep it, you can bring it back. The person I got my NORMAL from had a customer that went into the armed forces and she took the snake back and found a new home and a new caretaker, I.E me.

I was not trying to insult you at all. It's a fairly simple concept, thats the only point I was making. I don't think I singled you out unfairly, but since you brought up the question, it's fair to answer it.

S~

However, you didn't answer it. I asked for proof, of which you offered none. Thus, it is not as simple a concept as you believe.

[QUOTE=JLC;1163080]Fair enough.

I think your argument about the possibility of an animal ending up unwanted and therefore is better off dead is completely illogical, though. And given all you've said so far, my impression is not of someone truly trying to figure out what is best for the animals or for the "industry"...but someone trying to justify his own lazy choices in dealing with extra babies.
QUOTE]


I guess my response to this would be that I have seen my animals in other peoples care, and the ones that I am most unhappy about, are always the ones that they value the least ie normals or non-pet snakes. So unhappy that I feel badly for having sold them in the first place. The answer to this would be to keep them all, but thats unreasonable, as I can't do that. Most people, espcially big breeders, can't do that.

I have to take my kid to baseball. I'll be back in a couple of hours. Thank you all for hashing this out with me. I appreciate the discussion. 8-)

S~

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Originally Posted by MsPrada

However, you didn't answer it. I asked for proof, of which you offered none. Thus, it is not as simple a concept as you believe.

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I did answer it. Price is an excellent indicator of perceived value. Thats your answer. When you can't sell a snake for $30...that should tell you something...especially if you have 100 of them.

S~

Not taking any sides here--but you know we do the whole "culling un-beautiful things" often. The ugly carrots go to the rabbits, for the ones who do breed their mice/rats as feeders en mass and keep a few as pets will usually keep the cutest/the ones worth more. Really, when it comes down to it, all life are equal--what would be the difference between eating a dog vs. a goat? After all, both are animals that can be used and raised for that purpose.

However unfair it may be, we do place value on certain things over others. I think it's up to the breeder to decide what they want to do. As long as it's humane, and no one tries to force this practice onto anyone else (or vice versa forcibly stop this practice) then there really wouldn't be an argument to begin with. I love snakes but I don't condemn people who eat them. Similarly, people who love chickens or bunnies usually don't condemn those who eat them as well.

I'm sure people who keep goats and who love goats as pets are mortified when they see it sold for food. Cows, horses, etc. How is it any different than when we're mortified to hear people eat snakes/other pet species?

Everything's a choice, we choose to keep snakes and therefore take on the burden that we must kill and feed them mice.

Unfortunately, it can get extremely out of hand, as only in the history of humanity has any one species decided to destroy or place value on another simply out of personal prejudice.

In any case, no matter which way the wind blows, this sort of inequality exists whether we like it or not. There's no clear cut answer or solution, if there was one to begin with at all.

I stand by what I said, as of right now it seems as if you are dodging the asked for proof because you have none, thus your logic is not sound. As you said "your job is to convince us" and its not going to work without proof.

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life for these animals after they leave your possesion..that doesn't make you less responsible for them...you created them. So what happens to them begins, and ends, because of you.

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Best option than is not to breed at all because regardless of the paint job and/or the value of the animal once the animal is sold you no longer have control of what happen to the said animal.
If you think that because an animal is expensive he will not get dumped or neglected than think again.

If the excuse is to cull animals so they do not become "victims" than why not cull the more expensive ones?.........................Double standard because of the time and money involved?

Do you seriously think that someone buying an albino will not abandoned it or neglect if he no longer has interest in it in 5 or 10 years?

So what do we do?

A/ Cull them all
B/ Stop breeding them
C/ Have a little faith in people and give animals a chance

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Originally Posted by p3titexburial

I'm sure people who keep goats and who love goats as pets are mortified when they see it sold for food.

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I would offer that there's a huge difference between animals that are produced to feed people (and other animals) and animals that are killed for no other reason than that they're a financial burden to the breeder.

The former is called farming ... the latter is called unethical.

I understand that killing for the sake of a balance sheet is done in our society, but to get on a message board and try and convince people that it's being done for "the good of the hobby" just sickens me. Call it what it is and move on.

-adam

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Originally Posted by p3titexburial

Similarly, people who love chickens or bunnies usually don't condemn those who eat them as well.

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Yes they do, most of the time. I.E the horse slaughter act. People who love horses condemned eating them so much that laws are now passed that have millions of unwanted horses suffering in the US.

I do have to say however, that the rat breeder knows that the rats are being bred for food, thus the ones she/he does not keep are not being produced uselessly. Also, our disagreement with this person is not that he thinks normals are ugly or anything, but that he is producing them and culling them without giving them a chance for a life or finding a use for them. He feeds some off, but overall anything that is not pretty and does not get fed off is just killed uselessly.

As far as it being humane, I don't believe it was stated how the OP culls off animals that aren't fed. Also, it depends on the accepted def. of humane. To some it means that what happens happens for a purpose, ie killing animals for food or for a religious ceremony. Does culling animals for looks fall under humane? Thats for each and every individual to answer.

And as far as I know, coming from the dog breeding community, animals that are not suitable for the purpose (show animals etc) are found homes and papers are signed to keep breeding from happening. Thus, while this inequality does exist, there is a sort of "golden" rule on how to handle it and keep it to a minimum.

I just dont see how anyone can believe this is ok and believe we can't kill orphaned children because they are ugly and might not find a good home...

;D Send me a rack and I'll take those normals off your hands.

I'm on the fence with this. I can, to a degree understand where this guy comes from. I breed goats. They're great animals. Smart, cute, and downright hilarious animals. However, I can't keep all of them and the ones that don't meet my requirements for breeding/registering has to go somewhere. Either into my freezer, or to the sale barn where they still might go to the freezer. Obviously, the animals born with defects should be culled with the idea that the issue could be passed on.

Despite how much I love my goats, if someone who owned a large snake came up to me and wanted a goat for his snake, all I'd need is the size. Chances are, I have a cull that'd fit (obviously, goat would need to be dehorned first for the safety of the snake, but that's beside the issue). I don't know. I'm fairly neutral on the issue. Like I said, I can see both sides of the argument.

Oh dear, let me be a bit more precise. I think people are reading a little too into what the person might or might not be feeling and that's an assumption that will cause a lot of problems and twist this into something else.

As you said, with the horse slaughter act, horses that can't be sold off, are undesirable, etc, are now suffering simply because we are not allowed to eat them. It goes the same with dogs and cats--the hundreds of millions of strays/unwanted animals in shelters where they will be euthanized or dying on the street or even locked in someone's basement. Where is their justice? So what do you do? How does anyone solve this problem?

Of course it's easier to say then just don't breed them but in practice it won't ever stop.

When I said humane, I mean generally as a whole on HOW an animal is euthanized. Not whether the entire issue is ethical or not.

Yup, it's done in practice with other animals, but I find it contradictory to turn a blind eye on that and only choose the sides of the coins we want to see. We seem to think, to some degree at least, if the animal is usually used for food it's alright (but isn't in some cases, like the goats.) We feel less guilty because we think they had an original purpose--but there is little difference in technicality.

There are always exceptions and I see no reason to have anyone say whether what he's doing is "right" or "wrong" when there is no such line to begin with.

We as people place a lot of value on the fact our actions don't make us monsters, our reasons do. But when it comes down to it, the consequences end up being the same.

To me beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. I know people with normals that care more for their snakes then folks with double/triple co-doms. Why? One is a pet and the other is a $.

The assumption that what does not have value to one also does not have value to others is not necessarily correct and the flaw (IMO) with the OPs perspective.

There will always be animals in captivity that are not cared for correctly. That is just a fact of life. You must also remember in their natural setting 80-90%(generous %) of these animals will starve, suffer, die and never make it to adulthood, that is also a fact of life, nature is giving them that chance and you are not even though the odds in captivity are much more in their favor.

Assuming in captivity they will suffer needlessly so kill it first is assuming quite alot (and something you cant take back). In my opinion they are much better served giving them the opportunity then culling then based on what you assume is a pre-destined fate.

I started keeping reptiles when I was just a boy in the 1970's. Back then husbandry knowledge was horrible and yes many animals died and suffered but looking back at the big picture, we learned ALOT from those mistakes. Today husbandry knowledge is WAY better, we share that knowledge online and the hobby has grown 100 fold. So what some may have percieved as senseless suffering of these poor animals in the long run was actually their salvation and a blessing to an exponetially larger amount of animals then anyone would ever have imagined.

Dont assume fate, create it!

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Originally Posted by MsPrada

He feeds some off, but overall anything that is not pretty and does not get fed off is just killed uselessly.

As far as it being humane, I don't believe it was stated how the OP culls off animals that aren't fed.

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I have 5 mins from home to post this, then I won't be back for a while.

Please dont' mis-state what I said. When I choose to cull something, it gets fed to my Monitors lizard...A Blackthroat, or it gets fed to an arrowanna. Everything that I decide is just better to cull is used as food in my snake room. The end. I don't just stomp on things heads when i deem them useless. They have a purpose in the circle of life. Their purpose just isn't to be sold to the masses for cheap. As tends to happen, people are reading into what I am saying, but not reading WHAT I am saying.

S~

I can see several different sides of this, though I agree with what most people are saying here.

Feeding snakes to other animals that eat/like to eat snakes seems fine to me. Not in the context of the OP (because they're unwanted), however. I would feel really bad about it, but that's why I'd never keep an animal that eats snakes....

I also understand the OP's argument that if something costs less, it probably isn't going to be cared as much as something that costs more. It isn't absolute--i.e. it doesn't always happen--but it's pretty common. That $300 iPhone is going to get a whole lot more protection from the rain you're running through than your $20 calculator. I would never say this is always the case, but I would say that the majority of the time, this is how people treat things. (A good example of this not always being the case is my first snake, which was a normal ball python. She is still my favorite, even though I have since paid over $500 for some of my morphs. They all get the same care no matter their price.)

Snakes and lizards are my cats and dogs. I've cried my heart out at every leopard gecko I've lost, no matter how dumb I felt for crying over a little gecko in front of my vet and everyone in the lobby. They're my family. There is no way I would ever cull a healthy, normal/ugly animal. For one, my idea of ugly is probably vastly different than anyone else's idea of ugly. Even some combo morphs I find ugly, but I'm not going to cull it just because I think it's ugly.

Also, producing "unwanted" animals (ugly, normal, whatever) is part of the hobby. If one is going to be in a hobby like this, then one needs to take full responsibility for all the little lives we create.

I've thought about this a lot ever since I decided I wanted to breed ball pythons, and here's what I came up with for dealing with the "problem" of lots of normals.

1. Selling the normals online, like the rest of my animals, increases the chance of them going to good homes. If someone is willing to spend $50 to ship a $30 male ball python, then they're probably going to take care of it. (I can also screen people I don't think will take good care of them if need be.)

2. My breeding plans include producing the fewest amount of normals possible. My first clutch will probably be a co-dom x normal, but after that, I would like to rarely (if ever) do more crosses like that. A 50% normal fraction is too high for me. If I want do reduce the amount of normals I have to sell, then I will reduce the fraction of normals I should get by crossing recessives/combos instead of base morphs crossed with normals.

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Originally Posted by p3titexburial

It goes the same with dogs and cats--the hundreds of millions of strays/unwanted animals in shelters where they will be euthanized

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Actually it's not hundreds of millions, it's about 4-5 million.

That said, I have the same problem with people who choose to kill healthy adoptable animals in shelters each year that I do with the OP.

Too many shelters are killing healthy kittens, puppies, dogs, and cats and blaming pet overpopulation and the so-called irresponsible public for doing so.

The reality is that 17 million households will bring home new dogs and/or cats next year and 4-5 million healthy dogs and cats will be killed in shelters. Killed because most shelters are only open from 9-5 when people are at work. Closed on holidays and Sundays and only open a handful of hours on Saturdays when people are available to come adopt. They have requirements for adoption that exclude many families such as fenced in yards, no apartments, all family members present before they'll adopt animals out, and fees that are sometimes on par with or higher than local breeders. Many shelters refuse to work with rescues, limit volunteer responsibilities, and run minimal foster programs if even at all. They run 1 or 2 off-site adoption events per month while at they same time they are often located in the worst parts of town or remote locations away from where people shop and commute.

The point is that animals deserve life and it's much easier to point a finger and make an excuse for giving that animal the hot needle or feeding it off to a lizard than it is to actually do the work necessary to preserve that life. Because there's no doubt about it, it takes work to not kill ... killing is the easy way out. But I believe that anything less than doing that work and ensuring 100% that those animals live versus dying for some arbitrary excuse is morally corrupt.

Blessings,

-adam

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Actually it's not hundreds of millions, it's about 4-5 million.

The point is that animals deserve life and it's much easier to point a finger and make an excuse for giving that animal the hot needle or feeding it off to a lizard than it is to actually do the work necessary to preserve that life. Because there's no doubt about it, it takes work to not kill ... killing is the easy way out. But I believe that anything less than doing that work and ensuring 100% that those animals live versus dying for some arbitrary excuse is morally corrupt.

Blessings,

-adam

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And for most of us as breeders, the work part comes when we take all of our undesirable animals and wholesale them in a lot to jobber for a tidy profit correct? Thats what most...not all..but most of us do with them.

Doesn't that make us alot like a puppy mill? We are the guys who are providing tons of new animals each year, when there are already more out there than thier needs to be. Thats kinda my point.

You are making it sound like we are all this noble group who makes sure our less than valuable animals find great homes...but thats not what we do. We blow them out the door, and it's no longer our problem. I think thats the part we needs to work on. We either stop breeding...which we probably wont' do because we love it, or we find other ways to deal with those offspring. I feed mine off, and I think thats a perfectly natural, ethical way to deal with it.

S~

I not read the entire topic (all the post) but I canunderstand the point in the main post ) some animals will end up dying do to the fact that asome people consider the snake a thorw away pet. The same can me said about cats and dogs. It can be a more humane to kill a snake ( mutli snakes) if the chance is htey gonig ot end up in a wholeseller price sheet for the places like petco and such that don't givea rat's rear if the snake makes it past their 7 day ganutee(spelling?? ) I should know how easy some people toss the snakes, My collection of 21 snakes I have only purchased 7 of the snakes the rest have come into my keep by people that lost interest in them.

I know that some never make it to a better provider( caregiver)and end up dying by the old farm way of a shovel to the head( sorry for the sicking image). I also get request to take in about 100 iguanas in a given year from people that no longer want them. I have found homes for some some have died in my care due to the fact they were too far gone by the time I gotten them.

I seen people that were given up their snake to me, in all kinds of shape from nice and healthy ( just lost th interest in them ) all the way ot some of the horror story we all ready about ( mutli sheds, large pool amounts (out weighting the snakes) and all kinds of other issues.

Unfortunately though, not everyone wants a shelter animal and an older one at that--including the fact that many of those 4-5 mil (whoops, I was going with hundreds of thousands and realized that was wrong and put in million. Brain fart.) will be grown animals--the ones that aren't adopted (or euthanized) will add onto the next year and the next year and so on. What happens then?

I'd prefer they screen potential owners as well. I do agree that yes, while killing is the easy way out and it isn't the only way out but what about people who adopt animals without caring properly for them, where they die of neglect more than anything else? We're digressing, but the point is there's no easy solution no matter what the plan is.

Everyone has their own reasons and their own set of values, and it's really not up to us to say that anyone is sick or morally corrupt. What we think is acceptable for one thing may be taboo for someone else.

They are the OP's animals...and he can do with them as he chooses, so long as it is legal. I respect his frankness with regards to his practice. I'm sure there are other breeders out there who do things with their animals that we would find distasteful or even abhorrent, but they wouldn't dare admit it so openly.

But the OP DID bring it up...and challenged folks to debate and discuss...and therefore, I feel perfectly free to make my feelings known about what I think of his practices.

The world is filled with back yard breeders and puppy mills and and greedy snake breeders....most of whom operate within the bounds of the law...even if just barely. That doesn't make what they do right. And just because some people do that doesn't mean the rest of us should throw up our hands and say, "Oh well...world sucks, so why bother trying to do the right thing with my own animals?"

So yeah...the guy can do whatever he wants with his animals. But you can be darned sure that he won't ever make a sale to me, or to just about anyone I know. All I can do is be responsible for my own animals....AND I can make responsible, educated choices about who I choose to give my money to.

As I am reading the latest responses in this thread, I am cuddling my 'ugly' dog, Molly. She is not a beauty. Legs too long for her body, ears that are too short for her head. She is a mixed breed dog that most would not find pretty. And the thought that someone could have decided that she was too ugly to live and fed them to their pet retic or gator is horrible. Yet Molly has lived a pretty good life with me for over 11 years now...hmmm...I know that is not the case for every dog like her, but it's a good enough reason for me to believe that culling healthy animals is ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by ShawnC

And for most of us as breeders, the work part comes when we take all of our undesirable animals and wholesale them in a lot to jobber for a tidy profit correct? That's what most...not all..but most of us do with them.

Doesn't that make us alot like a puppy mill? We are the guys who are providing tons of new animals each year, when there are already more out there than their needs to be. Thats kinda my point.

You are making it sound like we are all this noble group who makes sure our less than valuable animals find great homes...but thats not what we do. We blow them out the door, and it's no longer our problem. I think thats the part we needs to work on. We either stop breeding...which we probably wont' do because we love it, or we find other ways to deal with those offspring. I feed mine off, and I think thats a perfectly natural, ethical way to deal with it.

S~

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Speak for yourself and please don't speak for me (or likely, the VAST majority of members). I do not see normals or the "not pretty ones" as undesirable. I do not sell to jobbers, I do not cull healthy animals. If an animal doesn't sell, I keep it and care for it as I do for all others. What bothers me is the attitude, not the actions.

I think the majority of breeders on this site DO make sure a knowledgeable home is provided, or offer to help. I know I do. There is a reason I frequent this board and the breeders here- their actions speak volumes to me.

Judy, I couldn't have said it better, I know who I won't even think about buying from!

Adam, you know I adore you and agree on many points you made about shelters but I think that is one subject I will shy away from discussing with you!

Thanks Judy and Adam, couldn't agree more.

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Originally Posted by catawhat75

Speak for yourself and please don't speak for me (or likely, the VAST majority of members). I do not see normals or the "not pretty ones" as undesirable. I do not sell to jobbers, I do not cull healthy animals. If an animal doesn't sell, I keep it and care for it as I do for all others. What bothers me is the attitude, not the actions.

I think the majority of breeders on this site DO make sure a knowledgeable home is provided, or offer to help. I know I do. There is a reason I frequent this board and the breeders here- their actions speak volumes to me.

Judy, I couldn't have said it better, I know who I won't even think about buying from!

Adam, you know I adore you and agree on many points you made about shelters but I think that is one subject I will shy away from discussing with you!

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Thanks for posting this. I couldn't agree more and definitely couldn't have articulated it as well. :gj:

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Originally Posted by MuzeBallPythons

but it's a good enough reason for me to believe that culling healthy animals is ridiculous.

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If you're trying to better a breed, culling healthy animals is needed. Not all of them are breeding quality. Three examples of culls that I have personally dealt with:

Chocolate: Had trouble standing up at birth and required a lot of help. Once he got over this, he was fine, was always a bit slow, but otherwise, decently healthy. He's still the same size that he was at about five months old. He was castrated due to being a low percentage and the issues that he had as a kid. The qualities he had at birth plus his extremely slow growth rate makes him a poor choice for breeding stock since he's a meat breed.

Fort: Always great, no issues whatsoever. Very independent, never sick. Castrated due to us not know his sire, and his small size. Also not good breeding stock, mainly due to his unknown pedigree (we unknowingly bought his dam pregnant).

Freezer: Never sick, very active. Aggressive and pushy. Castrated due to his low percentage, but mainly due to his aggressiveness. An aggressive male is not a good thing especially when they get massive horns and up to 200+ pounds.

The three above could have easily been kept intact and sold off as commercial sires. Would they have produced good offspring? Very unlikely. I'd also like to say that I don't show or anything.

As I said before. I'm neutral on the subject. I have no issue with owning animals and using them for food (goats, chickens), nor with raising animals that will eventually be fed to something else (mice). With breeding a large amount of animals, you're going to get undesirables/ones that just won't sell.

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Originally Posted by catawhat75

Speak for yourself and please don't speak for me (or likely, the VAST majority of members). I do not see normals or the "not pretty ones" as undesirable. I do not sell to jobbers, If an animal doesn't sell, I keep it and care for it as I do for all others. What bothers me is the attitude, not the actions.

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Then you would be a minority. Mostlarge scale breeders..people who produce more than 100 animals per year, can not make these claims. I have been around a very long time. There are no absolutes of course.

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Originally Posted by catawhat75

I think the majority of breeders on this site DO make sure a knowledgeable home is provided, or offer to help. I know I do. There is a reason I frequent this board and the breeders here- their actions speak volumes to me.

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Not if they produce a large number of animals they don't. It's impossible, or next to impossible to do. This is your opinion, but has no basis in fact in my opinion. This is also why they do not comment on this thread...they have an image to uphold or it hurts sales. Thats the facts. I am one of those guys, I am just not afraid to tell the truth.

For years I kept my mouth shut, but I think it's time we be honest with ourselves. It's patently foolish for us to act like a bunch of saints while the Govt. is trying to take our rights away as keepers and breeders when we won't be honest about whats going on, and how we don't deal with it. Oh we can write letters, and complain, and call congressmen, but when it comes to taking real responsibility, we stop short. I am not talking about all the folks that have a few clutches per year (although together you add up) I am talking about the guys who create hundreds or thousands of animals that their just isn't a market for. They dont' do this on purpose...it's an unfortunate side effect of producing the animals we are trying to make...morph crosses etc. You cannot send that many animals out into the world without there being an impact on the animals well being, and the well being of the hobby. Dislike my points all you want, but they have merit, and warrant discussion. Turning some of them into feeder animals is an extremely useful, ethical, and sound way to help your own hobby out.

And I hear you that some ugly ducklings become beloved pets. I have owned my fair share of them over the years. But now I think that, how many animals have suffered, and for how long, for that one that had a good life? I suspect it's a scary high number. With reptiles even more so. Reptiles are much more disposable than a dog or a cat. And there are far few too reptile rescues.

It's very easy to say you love yoru pets and you would never do such a terrible thing. Thats also the easiest thing to do. Sometimes the best, or right thing to do, isn't always the easiest. Keep in mind, I know I came to a reptile forum to discuss this, but it's because I want their to be a voice out there for something other than mass production under the guise of "we love our snakes". The two don't mix well, especially right now when we are under fire from all sides.

S~

Shawn,

Who are you? You seem to want to speak for the large breeders. How many animals do you produce per year? Has anyone heard of you? Do you even know any of the big breeders? Just curious as I think it is relevant to this thread.

I don't believe for one minute that just because something has little to no monetary value that it won't be well taken care of. I'm giving two normal males to a local couple that just spent a nice tidy sum of money with Reptile Basics to get two heat mats, two thermostats, have called me every step of the way of setting up their enclosures, have come to my home to pick out their new babies, who are still here while they make sure that the enclosures have the proper temps and humidity dialed, who asked me if I would be willing to come to their home to check out their enclosures BEFORE they bring their babies home, are already considering breeding their own feeders on a small scale to ensure that they can control their prey quality.

They first asked to come to my home to see the snakes to make SURE that they were ready to make the commitment to providing a forever home to a single snake and fell so in love with them are adopting two of them.

Every single normal male I have produced, I have placed in free pet homes, and I screened each home as best that I could. I asked very pointed questions about housing, experience, and if they had no experience, pointed them to sites and caresheets to help them get started BEFORE they took their new pets home.

Last year, one family adopted four normal males, one for each of their children, write to me to this day about how much they love their males, how devoted the entire family is to each one of them. They still send me pictures.

Another normal male just went to a young gal who has been researching and looking for a YEAR for the right normal male ball python, had already purchased all the necessary equipment and is completely in love with her little guy.

Yeah, I think my average normal males have it pretty good, at least better than in the belly of another animal because they weren't "pretty" enough or were "just" normal males.

Not sure what to say here. I am nearly 40, and have had reptiles my entire life since I was a kid in Florida. In the past several years, my life has gotten so that I can afford more reptiles, and in that time, I have built one of the most comprehensive collections of Carpet Pythons(my favorite pythons) and their mutations in the world. I also have been building a very nice collection of represetative animals of every python type in Austalia, with the exception of Oenpelli, Roughscale, and Darwin Carpets. I produce upwards of 300 carpet pythons babies per year, and have this year, expanded into ball pythons. I also happen to own (but I didn't found) a fairly wel known carpet python website which I will not link here, as it's not my place. I am not bragging...I wasn't going to bring any of this up, but you asked.

I should point out to those who are not familiar with carpets that it's a difficult species to work with because many of the morphs are in different subspieces, so in order to cross them, you make hybrid "normal" offspring. In essence...Mutts. Rather than just send them into the world, muddying up the gene pool further and creating animals that are nothing other than pet quality snakes...I tend to take the ones I don't think will be very nice looking, and I feed them to a Lizard so they don't go out and become giant ugly brown snakes that noone wants, which is where this discussion comes from. I got a very similar reaction on my own forum, and I though it might be fun to discuss it on a larger venue, and see what everyone else thinks. Thank you all again BTW for making this a positive experience.

S~