Is this snake a blackback?

Ok. I'm not going to go into detail, but while selling a snake as a black back, it was questioned as to whether it really is a black back. Please just answer is it a black back in your opinion? Yes or No?

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e3...tblackback.jpg

Thanks

I am not going to try to tick anyone off, but what makes a black-back? I think a "true" black back has NO dorsal pattern. This snake has a striped tail, and the first half of it's body looks normal. I would say that MAYBE a 1/3 of this snake is 'black back'

Help me out, what is a black back then? I mean yes....a black back...but if this snake pictured above is considered a black back...then most of animals are black-backs! :P As far as I see it, the snake above is just a normal with an aberrant pattern.

..again, I am not trying to tick anyone off....I just see this being a black back ball a stretch...maybe someone can help me out as to what constitutes a black back?

In the end....it's just a very nice looking snake. :) :gj:



oooo...I just noticed too that there are some white scales on it's back....where it is NOT BLACK....could this mean that it is calico too?............................................................................ ....................................................JK :)

According to this from Ralph's page - the only TRUE genetic black backs are het red axanthics.

Anything else is simply a descriptor. There is far more "black back" on the pictured snake than dorsal patterning. I would describe it as a black back myself, and apparently, Ralph also described it as such on the care card that came with the snake when originally sold to Randy.

So, who's wrong? Ralph when he described it as such when he sold it?

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Genetic Morph: Black Backed
Status: "Could Be" Dominant or Simple Recessive
When: 1999 to present
By Whom: Several breeders and hobbyists working on refining the trait.


The Black Back is very variable in ball pythons..........I don't think that any breeder has actually figured out what the actual "genetics" of this trait is?.........I know I and others have produced them through selective breeding and line breeding.........some have produced clutches of half Black Backs and half normals from just breeding a nice Black Back to a normal...............others have produced Black Backs from breeding two Black Backs together that were unrelated.............so this trait seems to be very "forgiving"......but not what I would say "predictable"...........we all have our "Black Back" projects hiding in our snake rooms.........:)

As of now the only person who has consistently produced Black Backs is Corey Woods............these Black Backs are what we call the "hets" for the Red Axanthic...........when breeding a Red Axanthic to a normal............all the babies produced are Black Backs of some degree..........so I have it listed in the proven section because they can be reproduced........ I produced 25 "het red axanthics" in 2003......all were some degree of a Black Back. The snake pictured on this page is not from Corey Wood's line of Red Axanthic............it is a pic of your "standard" African hatched baby Black Back.

Text by Ralph Davis

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Originally Posted by rabernet

According to this from Ralph's page - the only TRUE genetic black backs are het red axanthics.

Anything else is simply a descriptor. There is far more "black back" on the pictured snake than dorsal patterning. I would describe it as a black back myself, and apparently, Ralph also described it as such on the care card that came with the snake when originally sold to Randy.

So, who's wrong? Ralph when he described it as such when he sold it?

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.....perhaps the name "Black Back" is incorrect then? Just like how Patternless Leopard Geckos were/are called lucys even tho they are not try leusitics? I duno...."black back" just doesnt seem like the right name for the phase then. If someone tried to sell me a snake like that above at an inflated price because it is a "black back," I wouldn't bite...again, it looks like someone trying to get an extra buck from a normal....we have all seen it before....

At best, that snake is a dinker.

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Originally Posted by Jerhart

.....perhaps the name "Black Back" is incorrect then? Just like how Patternless Leopard Geckos were/are called lucys even tho they are not try leusitics? I duno...."black back" just doesnt seem like the right name for the phase then. If someone tried to sell me a snake like that above at an inflated price because it is a "black back," I wouldn't bite...again, it looks like someone trying to get an extra buck from a normal....we have all seen it before....

At best, that snake is a dinker.

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So take out the black back part of it - what would you pay for a female that is close to breeding weight (no matter the pattern)? I don't think the asking price is out of line for an almost breedable weight female.

There's an asking price, complete disclosure of her eating habits, and there's a picture for you to judge - is this snake worth it to you to spend the asking price? If not - no big deal. To someone else - it probably is worth it.

;)

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Originally Posted by rabernet

So take out the black back part of it - what would you pay for a female that is close to breeding weight (no matter the pattern)? I don't think the asking price is out of line for an almost breedable weight female.

There's an asking price, complete disclosure of her eating habits, and there's a picture for you to judge - is this snake worth it to you to spend the asking price? If not - no big deal. To someone else - it probably is worth it.

;)

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Fair enough...drop the name "black back" and I agree, it's a nice looking female ball. :)

From how I know it, like Ralph says, the only true genetic black backs are het reds. I always assume anything else is just a nice description of the animal.

On that note, not all het reds have those nice black backs with no dorsal pattern.

That animal above reminds me of my female that has a dominant black back like feature.

It's a little difficult to see in this picture...
Here
but she does have a nice dorsal stripe. I consider her to have a nice black back. It's nothing like a het red... but still a very dominant feature.

In my experience black back has been used as a general term to describe very dark black back. Similar to a reduced patteren ther is no guarantee of genetics its just more of a descriptive term.

Now if someone says genetic reduced or blackback then that changes the impression to say yes this is a proven trait.

Like any trait there are variations. I have seen pastels (that I know are genetic) that are so dirty in color that an untrained eye might mistake them for a normal. So judgement always come into play when making a purchase.

I would say yeah you can call that a black back. How nice of one is up to personal opinion. Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder.

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The page at http://ball-pythons.net says:
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to West Coast Jungle again.

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RAUL!!!! You beat me to it, Pastel example and all! Very well said!!!

If that snake was in my collection I'd note it as a blackback or partial blackback...it has been used as a descriptive term for ball pythons for years, and most folks can recognize it.

Everyone has their own personal tastes as to what would make one a "so-so" example or a "perfect" example.

Just my $10.02 (fuel surcharge thingy again)...

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Originally Posted by KLG

Just my $10.02 (fuel surcharge thingy again)...

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