New BP has become lethargic, has black gunk in nose

Hi everyone,
I need your help. I'm currently in the process of hunting down a reputable veterinarian that specializes in reptiles, but in the meantime I'd like to know if anyone can shed light on what's happening to my BP.

First, I'll give a snapshot of the husbandry conditions I have him in:

• 24x36" glass ExoTerra terrarium with mesh top
• A 1-inch thick, 50/50 mix of coconut fiber and cypress mulch as substrate.
• 2 cork-bark hides, one on cool side and one on warm side. 5 inch water bowl. Some natural wood vines.
• Around 8x5" heat pad in one corner, hooked up to a thermostat (probe taped to the mat outside) that holds it at 91 degrees.
• Ceramic heat emitter above hot corner, hooked up to a separate thermostat that holds it at 90 degrees.
• Ambient temperature monitored by digital thermometer on cool side. Fluctuates between 72-78 degrees.
• Humidity, I have a hard time with. Hygrometer is set up under the ceramic heat emitter and I get readings ranging from 21% to 55%, depending how long it's been since I've re-wetted the substrate. The humidity levels drop fast and it's very hard for me to keep up with. I have folded up towels covering 75% of the mesh top lid that I re-wet every couple days to help trap in the humidity. I admit the humidity hangs out on the low end more than the "high" end.

So, I have a 7 month old banana pinstripe male, and I've had him for 7 weeks. He is my first snake. He spent his first 4 weeks with me being very active in his enclosure, roaming around a lot, seemed very curious about everything, would poke his head out of his hides to watch me, and if I took him out, he would be very active and liked to explore and was constantly moving. He ate his once-a-week frozen/thawed hoppers with much enthusiasm.

Around week 2 I noticed he had some scales on the TOP of his body that were black around the edges, dotted along his body. None like this on his belly. I would rub my finger along them and nothing would come off. I really don't think it's mites or scale rot. He still has these.

A couple times when I would take him out, I could hear him breath. Every couple breaths I could hear. But it never struck me as a "wheeze."

At some point, I don't remember when, I started noticing that he has black gunk in his nostrils. This seems to have gotten a little bit worse over the past couple of weeks. He also seems to like to rest his head on something so that his nose tips upwards. He doesn't do this all the time, but it's common enough.

Two weeks ago (after having him for 5 weeks) he suddenly became much more inactive. It was almost over-night it seemed. It started the day after I did a full clean of his terrarium. I boiled and baked the natural wood vines (which I didn't do when I first bought them...), wiped down and sanitized the terrarium, and did a complete replacement of his substrate. I then fed him that night. It was a stressful feed for both of us because he struck at the mouse's back and could not reposition it. So he ended up rolling the mouse in the substrate, coating it in coconut fiber. I did everything I could to pick off any bits of cypress mulch I could see with the tongs while he was swallowing. He definitely ate some coconut fiber that night.

Two days after being fed, he usually starts cruising around his enclosure again. But that week he didn't. And he was much less active when I took him out. I would put him on my lap and he'd just chill there. Eventually he'd start moving around and exploring, but not with as much gusto as before.

Two days ago (this is week 7 now, if you're keeping track lol) I woke up at 5:30am to him making loud squeaking sounds. They sounded almost exactly like mouse squeaks. I get up and see him curled up tight around his water dish, which I've never seen him do before. I watch him and witness a couple of the squeaks. His body would contract and jerk when he did it. It seemed like he was expelling air out of his nose and that was causing the squeak.

I take him out to examine him. Again, not acting very curious. I put his nose up to my ear and can hear him breath after every couple breaths. I notice that he has two scales right at the tip of his nose that are flaking off, so I figure he is getting ready to shed? I looked in his enclosure where he was just laying and see that he pooped and left a urate. Maybe the squeaks were from him pooping?

So, what I need help with is... which of this stuff is normal, and which of it is something to be concerned about? I'm wondering if maybe there is mold in my house and it's growing on his substrate, and then getting in his nose? Or perhaps coconut fiber dust is collecting in his nose and clogging it? I want to try to clean out his nose but I don't know how! Or perhaps he is just going through a very slow shed cycle?? Maybe he's comfortable with me now and that's why he's not as active?? Any insight would be much appreciated!!

Much thanks,
-Hamamelis

I'd say he needs a good vet and probably sooner than later. Better safe than sorry.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MR Snakes

I'd say he needs a good vet and probably sooner than later. Better safe than sorry.

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Couldn’t of answered any better myself. Great advice ;)

BPs are more active at night when we aren't looking, especially when hungry. I'm wondering if he has managed to push some substrate into his nostrils?

That could cause some noisy breathing, as can some old skin left in nostrils from previous sheds. But we aren't seeing him & I don't know what to tell you
about scales that are edged in black. It also occurs to me that "old or digested blood" can appear to be black too, so you definitely need to get him checked
by a qualified & experienced herp vet, especially with his change in activity too. Don't forget to lay all these symptoms out for the vet you see, they need ALL
the help you can give them to accurately diagnose what's going on. Tilting his head up to breathe suggests that he is having trouble breathing, and since
snakes cannot cough, any secretions that aren't normal & swallowed can cause problems...it sounds like that's what you're seeing. The "squeaks" you heard
might well have come from "the other end" though, when he defecated; snakes can also pass gas, fyi. ;) If he is no longer "squeaking" it was probably just
the stool/urates that he passed.

One thing, don't take your thermostat's "word for it"- use a digital temp. gun to double check the actual temps IN the cage, ok? (if you aren't already doing so)

Oh yeah, and :welcome:

Good luck & please do keep us posted on what happens with your BP, & with the vet visit...sure hope it's "nothing" or at least, nothing serious.

So, firstly, try not to freak out too much and keep calm, but you should definitely get him to a vet ASAP as the gunk in his nose and physical symptoms sound kind of like he might have an RI (respiratory infection= "Cold" for snakes). These can be treated easily by the vet, but can become very detrimental for your ball if left untreated. I don't know about the whole squeaking part, but it does not sound so good to me- especially if it continues after he pooped. So, try to get him medical attention like now- again it may NOT be an RI as I am not a vet, but it is not worth the risk if it is one, I guarantee that.

However, after he gets medical attention, maybe these tips can help with your husbandry and prevent any medical issues in the future:
1. This first is more of a "preference", but can help with his stress levels: the open ended log hides that I think you have in there thare actually note greatest for little balls. In the wild, ball pythons spend their time in HOLES, completely surrounded and secure, which is where they feel safest (no surprise attacks from behind). I recommend getting him 2 hides that have all sides enclosed and just an entrance hole- you can either get cheap plastic ones on Amazon for like $10 or "fancy" ones that look like caves and such from Petsmart/Petco for around $15-20.
2. The second is how to help you with the humidity, which is actually what causes RIs if that is what he has (I don't think the rapid drops and increases in humidity you describing are good for him at all and humidity should stay consistently 50-60% and not fluctuate that much). Heat lamps suck the humidity out of the air, but for me (and it seems for you), I needed a heat lamp in addition to the UTH to keep up the ambient air, right? A) Putting the Hygrometer directly under the heat lamp may be causing the readings to be inaccurate, I would recommend putting the gauge a little deeper into the tank to read the air that is not directly affected by the heat lamp. B) This tip is GOLDEN if your humidity sucks due to heat lamp: GET SPHAGNUM MOSS. This stuff saved my life as I couldnt keep the humidity up with the heat lamp. Buy a box from Petco/Petsmart for like $10- it is messy so be careful opening it. There are instructions on the box, but basically you'll soak it, let it dry and then place a couple SMALL patches in his tank. This stuff holds humidity like you wouldn't believe and has instantly solved my humidity problem- I only have to mist once every few days with the stuff and my heat lamp on a thermostat 24/7. You won't use it all at once, and dont use TOO Much at one time. Put a bit in maybe two small patches (one on cold side, one on warm side) somewhere that your ball won't normally sit directly on it cause too much humidity directly under his belly won't be good for him (scale rot).
3. If you're having trouble accurately monitoring temps/humidity, I really recommend getting DIGITAL thermometer and hygrometer- they are more accurate and maybe get 2 to get a wide-spread read from one end to the other. Zoomed has a product that has a thermo/hygrometer all-in-one device and two probes connected to each device to accurately measure each separately. Amazon has a 2 pack of this for $15 or so- put one on the warm side and the other on the cool side. This will give you accurate readings on both ends of both temps and humidity and put your mind at ease.
4. This is another preference and don't be offended, but since it was a concern I wanted to share MY experience (that others share as well) that can maybe help you. For feeding, if your ball isn't the best at "hunting" (which many of them actually aren't), you might need to change up how you're going about it. A) There's a big controversy about feeding in the tank or in a separate container. I think it comes down to the individual ball, so maybe you can test it out and see how he reacts. Mine will actually only eat in a separate container (I use a relatively small cardboard box big enough to fit maybe 3x the balls size and keep one half closed so she feels safe/protected while eating), but this also prevents accidental ingestion of substrate that you mentioned, which can also be very dangerous for them. Counterargument is that handling your snake after feeding to put them back in the tank will make them throw up, but mine never has- not once. Just wait 30 mins after he's completely swallowed and then slowly and gently put him straight back in his cage- total of 30 seconds of handling after feeding shouldn't be a big deal. Again, it comes down to the ball, if you're open to it, maybe give it a chance and see if it works for him and that may alleviate any stressful feeds in the future (my girl eats like a machine using this technique). You may also want to consider feeding freshly killed prey as they still get the benefit of "fresh meat", but if he is not good at striking at the right angle while the prey is actively running around, then he simply may not be the best hunter and health wise, it really doesn't matter to the ball if it was killed beforehand or if he killed it. The reptile store I get my feeders from actually pre-kill them for me no problem and I am able to feed her fresh prey, but eliminating the risk of swallowing the prey wrong or of the prey "fighting back" and injuring your ball.

Just some food for thought! Good luck! :gj:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

BPs are more active at night when we aren't looking, especially when hungry. I'm wondering if he has managed to push some substrate into his nostrils?

That could cause some noisy breathing, as can some old skin left in nostrils from previous sheds. But we aren't seeing him & I don't know what to tell you
about scales that are edged in black. It also occurs to me that "old or digested blood" can appear to be black too, so you definitely need to get him checked
by a qualified & experienced herp vet, especially with his change in activity too. Don't forget to lay all these symptoms out for the vet you see, they need ALL
the help you can give them to accurately diagnose what's going on. Tilting his head up to breathe suggests that he is having trouble breathing, and since
snakes cannot cough, any secretions that aren't normal & swallowed can cause problems...it sounds like that's what you're seeing. The "squeaks" you heard
might well have come from "the other end" though, when he defecated; snakes can also pass gas, fyi. ;) If he is no longer "squeaking" it was probably just
the stool/urates that he passed.

One thing, don't take your thermostat's "word for it"- use a digital temp. gun to double check the actual temps IN the cage, ok? (if you aren't already doing so)

Oh yeah, and :welcome:

Good luck & please do keep us posted on what happens with your BP, & with the vet visit...sure hope it's "nothing" or at least, nothing serious.

---

Thank you so much for the thoughtful reply. I never thought of the possibility of dried blood... I'll keep that one in mind. I agree that I should get a temp gun to cross-reference with the thermostats. I found a vet last night and have an appointment for today, so hopefully I've caught it in the early stages. I'll post an update.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hannahvh

So, firstly, try not to freak out too much and keep calm, but you should definitely get him to a vet ASAP as the gunk in his nose and physical symptoms sound kind of like he might have an RI (respiratory infection= "Cold" for snakes). These can be treated easily by the vet, but can become very detrimental for your ball if left untreated. I don't know about the whole squeaking part, but it does not sound so good to me- especially if it continues after he pooped. So, try to get him medical attention like now- again it may NOT be an RI as I am not a vet, but it is not worth the risk if it is one, I guarantee that.

However, after he gets medical attention, maybe these tips can help with your husbandry and prevent any medical issues in the future:
1. This first is more of a "preference", but can help with his stress levels: the open ended log hides that I think you have in there thare actually note greatest for little balls. In the wild, ball pythons spend their time in HOLES, completely surrounded and secure, which is where they feel safest (no surprise attacks from behind). I recommend getting him 2 hides that have all sides enclosed and just an entrance hole- you can either get cheap plastic ones on Amazon for like $10 or "fancy" ones that look like caves and such from Petsmart/Petco for around $15-20.
2. The second is how to help you with the humidity, which is actually what causes RIs if that is what he has (I don't think the rapid drops and increases in humidity you describing are good for him at all and humidity should stay consistently 50-60% and not fluctuate that much). Heat lamps suck the humidity out of the air, but for me (and it seems for you), I needed a heat lamp in addition to the UTH to keep up the ambient air, right? A) Putting the Hygrometer directly under the heat lamp may be causing the readings to be inaccurate, I would recommend putting the gauge a little deeper into the tank to read the air that is not directly affected by the heat lamp. B) This tip is GOLDEN if your humidity sucks due to heat lamp: GET SPHAGNUM MOSS. This stuff saved my life as I couldnt keep the humidity up with the heat lamp. Buy a box from Petco/Petsmart for like $10- it is messy so be careful opening it. There are instructions on the box, but basically you'll soak it, let it dry and then place a couple SMALL patches in his tank. This stuff holds humidity like you wouldn't believe and has instantly solved my humidity problem- I only have to mist once every few days with the stuff and my heat lamp on a thermostat 24/7. You won't use it all at once, and dont use TOO Much at one time. Put a bit in maybe two small patches (one on cold side, one on warm side) somewhere that your ball won't normally sit directly on it cause too much humidity directly under his belly won't be good for him (scale rot).
3. If you're having trouble accurately monitoring temps/humidity, I really recommend getting DIGITAL thermometer and hygrometer- they are more accurate and maybe get 2 to get a wide-spread read from one end to the other. Zoomed has a product that has a thermo/hygrometer all-in-one device and two probes connected to each device to accurately measure each separately. Amazon has a 2 pack of this for $15 or so- put one on the warm side and the other on the cool side. This will give you accurate readings on both ends of both temps and humidity and put your mind at ease.
4. This is another preference and don't be offended, but since it was a concern I wanted to share MY experience (that others share as well) that can maybe help you. For feeding, if your ball isn't the best at "hunting" (which many of them actually aren't), you might need to change up how you're going about it. A) There's a big controversy about feeding in the tank or in a separate container. I think it comes down to the individual ball, so maybe you can test it out and see how he reacts. Mine will actually only eat in a separate container (I use a relatively small cardboard box big enough to fit maybe 3x the balls size and keep one half closed so she feels safe/protected while eating), but this also prevents accidental ingestion of substrate that you mentioned, which can also be very dangerous for them. Counterargument is that handling your snake after feeding to put them back in the tank will make them throw up, but mine never has- not once. Just wait 30 mins after he's completely swallowed and then slowly and gently put him straight back in his cage- total of 30 seconds of handling after feeding shouldn't be a big deal. Again, it comes down to the ball, if you're open to it, maybe give it a chance and see if it works for him and that may alleviate any stressful feeds in the future (my girl eats like a machine using this technique). You may also want to consider feeding freshly killed prey as they still get the benefit of "fresh meat", but if he is not good at striking at the right angle while the prey is actively running around, then he simply may not be the best hunter and health wise, it really doesn't matter to the ball if it was killed beforehand or if he killed it. The reptile store I get my feeders from actually pre-kill them for me no problem and I am able to feed her fresh prey, but eliminating the risk of swallowing the prey wrong or of the prey "fighting back" and injuring your ball.

Just some food for thought! Good luck! :gj:

---

Thank you for sharing your experience! (I could never get offended by kind advice). I appreciate your detailed response. I have been wondering for a bit if I should change his hides actually... I bought some plastic ones from Petsmart but I worried about changing too many things in his enclosure too frequently and stressing him out, so I haven't made the switch yet. I jumped on the Sphagnum moss idea right away though and added that in.

Thank you for the ideas on feeding - separate container feeding is something else I was thinking about, but again, was worried about stressing him out... I like your method of letting them sit in the container for 30 min before returning them.

I have a vet appointment for him this afternoon and may do a complete change of his enclosure set up when we return.

Update after vet visit:
- They found no sign of mucus in his mouth, and his throat looked clear. No sign of inflammation in his mouth either. One of his nostrils had actually cleared out this morning, so only one had black gunk in it at the vet. He breathed normal for her and she said his heart and lungs sounded good. So, she did not feel confident diagnosing him with a respiratory infection and didn't want to give him unnecessary medication. I noticed at the vet that his underbelly is distinctly pink today. I definitely think he is entering a shed cycle.

The vet did not have any answers for me concerning the black-edged scales and the black gunk in his nose. She sent me home with instructions to buckle down on his humidity and see if his scales change after the shed. She's going to contact some colleagues to ask them about the scales and gunk in his nose, and get back to me.

I'm relieved that he didn't have any signs of an infection in his mouth, but having no actual answer still leaves me pretty confused.

Sounds pretty promising that nothing major going on. :gj: Glad your vet isn't into over-medicating too, as meds can have side effects.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hamamelis

Update after vet visit:


I'm relieved that he didn't have any signs of an infection in his mouth, but having no actual answer still leaves me pretty confused.

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I am sooo glad that the vet visit went as well as it did and that your baby was already showing improvements. I would have been a wreck. Well, actually, having the two for only a week and a half and them being my first.... I AM a wreck yet. LOL. Keep us posted please. :)