An Explanation of Urates

I just read a thread about urates that seemed to have pieces of the puzzle here and there. I’ll try to shed some light that may answer some leftover questions.

Now I’m not going to get mega geeky on the science. Though I understand the science stuff I probably could not explain it well enough. So I will give a watered down version (hey a joke! :D water/urine/urates).

Most if not all animals pass urates, including humans. Urates are obviously a waste product. They are made up of Nitrogen, Hydrogen, and other elements in the periodic table.

The reason that you don’t see the Urates in human urine is because they are microscopic and thus can pass in liquid form.
Here are two of probably many reasons: one, we drink a lot of water and daily at that. Your snake drinks infrequently in small amounts. Humans pass urine multiple times daily. Most snakes go anywhere from weekly to monthly. Of course more often during fast growth stages, especially Retics!
Two, our kidneys are much more complex than a snake. Each one of our kidneys have a million micro filters called glomeruli. One glomeruli is called a glomerulus, which is extremely complex on it's own. These micro filters, along with constant feeding of water allow for the breakdown of Urates into a micro form.

I have no idea how the snake kidney is comprised. But it must be a simple system compared to humans since the Urates build up into a huge chunk.

Another example of visible Urates are in birds. That white blob in their poo are Urates, so much for thinking that Urates are bone. While some birds do eat reptiles, bugs and seeds are the mainstay for common birds such as sparrows, bluebirds, etc.

This is very general explanation painted with a broad brush. I’m sure someone can say this animal does this or that, but to answer the question of what and why snakes have big white chunks, I hope the helps.

Bottom line, the amount of water intake along with frequency, and the anatomy of the renal system (kidneys et al) is why there is such a difference.

So, is a kidney stone basically just urates that we are unable to pass so easily?

Purine nucleotides breakdown!

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Originally Posted by c0r3yr0s3

So, is a kidney stone basically just urates that we are unable to pass so easily?

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Yesnosortofmaybe :rolleye2:

Kidney Stones can be made up of different minerals and chemicals, not all KS are the same.

The most common KS do have high Calcium and uric acid content, they can be a side effect/product of other chemicals and drugs. Genetics play a role as well as well as bodily intakes.

Are KS a result of mineral spillover that the glomerulus is unable to filter, caused by genetics? Some would argue yes, others no.

I have not been able to find an easily acceptable answer in my readings or discussions with doctors. I sometimes wonder if THEY even know. :)

Minor disclaimer: I have not studied this subject in over 15 years. Maybe some educational strides have been made since then. I don’t know.

Quite interesting. I honestly find it amazing how every type of being on this earth has evolved different ways of doing the same thing (eating, sleeping, defecate/urinate, etc). It may sometimes be gross, but an interesting subject in the least!

welcome back Reinz!

:)

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Originally Posted by c0r3yr0s3

So, is a kidney stone basically just urates that we are unable to pass so easily?

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Reinz

Yesnosortofmaybe :rolleye2:

Kidney Stones can be made up of different minerals and chemicals, not all KS are the same.

The most common KS do have high Calcium and uric acid content, they can be a side effect/product of other chemicals and drugs. Genetics play a role as well as well as bodily intakes.

Are KS a result of mineral spillover that the glomerulus is unable to filter, caused by genetics? Some would argue yes, others no.

I have not been able to find an easily acceptable answer in my readings or discussions with doctors. I sometimes wonder if THEY even know. :)

Minor disclaimer: I have not studied this subject in over 15 years. Maybe some educational strides have been made since then. I don’t know.

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i have never studied this! i've only learned about urates from snake keeping so this is helpful!

The big difference in vertebrate waste elimination is what kind of waste is being passed out as well as some basic evolutionary progressions. A lot more goes into this, but here is a simple-ish breakdown expanding on what Reinz originally posted (not trying to thread-jack, but I never get to talk science anymore :devilish:)

It all starts with how vertebrates evolved. Fish to amphibians to reptiles / birds then to mammals, with systems becoming more complex as the movement of life got further from needing water. Also accounts for why hard-shelled eggs evolved from membranous egg and eventually internal gestation. Each new stage was more "expensive" to the organism but allowed more species to exist and fill all the habitats that exist.

So it all started with fish: which have very simple "kidneys" and no urinary bladder - they pass strait ammonia and nitrogen in and out through both cloaca and gills. They don't need to concentrate their waste to preserve hydration as there is a constant inflow of fresh water into their bodies and an out flow of waste. This is why a goldfish will quickly die of ammonia poisoning in a bowl without constant water changes.

Then came reptiles (and later birds): they need to conserve water to a point, and have more simple kidneys. They pass the nitrogenous waste as uric acid. Uric acid is more compact and requiring slightly more water to pass, so it is more "expensive" than how fish and amphibians deal with waste. The don't pass a ton of water with their waste as they evolved to be efficient at holding onto water. Just as scales protect from the sun and help hold internal moisture more so than amphibian skin. Tortoises and some lizards have simple bladders and pass more liquid mixed in, but still have the chunky white uric acid. The waste gathers in the cloaca before excretion allowing the animal to re-absorb some of the liquid before passing it out, to save every last drop.

Mammals have an extremely complex kidney system that filters all kinds of toxins and stuff. The vast majority of mammals pass the nitrogenous waste as urea, think of it as super dilute uric acid but with more chemicals thrown in. Urea is "expensive" to make in both energy and water usage. Some mammals have evolved even more complex kidneys - especially the ones that evolved in arid environments. Cats for example waste as little water as possible and their kidneys have evolved to concentrate their wastes and before excreting it, which is why cat urine is so pungent when compared to dogs.

**Done with the science** :blahblah:

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Originally Posted by Ax01

welcome back Reinz!

:)

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Thank you!:)