Caramel Albinos: Any new findings on kinking / fertility?

Hello all,

I've been away from BPs for about 3 years now... I'm a pet-keeper and thought that I'd never purchase another BP as my interests had shifted to boas. That said, the breeding bug has bitten me and I'm considering purchasing a pair of BPs for my first breeding project.

Of the morphs / combos I'm interested in, I'm most fascinated by the caramels and their combos (particularly with hypo). They look great, but while doing research, I came across this thread regarding fertility and another thread about kinking issues.

I have not been able to find any newer information on either of these issues, except for vague references to lowered incubation temps to help solve kinking and a reference to caramel female infertility being an "urban legend" and not true... Neither comment had proof to back it up.

I'd love to hear from people working with the caramel gene now about these issues... I don't necessarily mind the smaller clutch size (if it is unavoidable) but having severe kinking and no way to prevent it would be a concern for me.

Kinking is something I don't think will ever go away (I still see some kinked babies/adults posted from time to time). The caramels and hets I own are non-kinked and came from non-kinked caramel parents of various caramel lines. I am hoping that greatly reduces my chances of producing kinked babies but who knows. The one breeding I've done of DHxDH produced one caramel offspring, he did not have kinks. I've got a few cooking for this season (more het breedings) so fingers are crossed my luck continues.

I was never able to find anything additional about female fertility, heard the same things over the years on both sides (that it's true and that it's not true). Some of my het babies were from a caramel female mother. I don't have any first hand experience yet, I do have a pastel caramel female that will eventually be bred. I'll be sharing whatever the results are good or bad when the time comes.

Not a lot of people work with the caramels like they used to because of these issues so it seems to be tough to find new info.

There could be several possible causes for kinking and female infertility. One that I do not think has been considered enough is a mild vitamin deficiency in the mother. It's a well known fact that pregnant women need higher levels of vitamins/minerals than those who are not pregnant. Studies on pigs, chickens, trout and other domestic vertebrates show the same thing, with deficiencies causing a variety of problems including malformed bones and greater infertility.

I only know the things I've heard from others, and am not a breeder so have no firsthand experience or data of my own to compare these claims against, but I'll air what I've heard. This may be stuff you already know.

-Apparently female caramels have smaller clutches on average than other females; like I said I have no data or names to support or debunk this but I have heard claims from several breeders over the years that their caramel females lay consistently smaller clutches than their other females who were cared for in the same way and same conditions. Apparently the sub-fertility is not an issue with hets.

-Caramels DO have issues with kinking, that is certain, nobody has figured out what causes this and to my knowledge lowering incubation temperatures has not yielded any solid results. However, I have heard claims that breeding a visual to a het or a het to a het decreases the odds of kinking in visual babies; again I have not seen any data or breeding trials to back this claim up.

To my understanding, a lot of people dropped the caramel project for the toffee/candy project and the ultramel project because of the similar color palette and lack of gene-related issues. Maybe, if the possibility kinking scares you, one of those projects may be a better fit. It would be more cost effective to go caramel though, lower price tag generally as some people avoid it.

AbsoluteApril- Thank you for that information. I will greatly appreciate any additional info you share from your breeding experiences. Can I ask who you purchased your breeding stock from? I have not seen many caramels for sale (or even hets).

Paulh- That was mentioned on one thread I saw... Something about vitamin C or iron I believe, but I could be remembering it incorrectly.

Trisnake- Thank you for the information. I had seen the candy / toffee morph as well, but it seems that not many of those are available either (and as you stated, for a lot more money). I am not sure about ultramels, I seem to remember reading somewhere that they could also have the same kinking issues, but again, I'm not sure.

Hey

I've got a Caramel Albino Spider and he's perfect , no kinks , no wobbles .. Great snake .

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Originally Posted by artgecko

Can I ask who you purchased your breeding stock from?

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I bought from 5 different sources, I'll send you a PM :)