Not good.... R.I. isn't clearing up on it's own

So Trigger's had the sniffles for a while now & hasn't eaten for a few weeks... mouth is kinda red & he's got some excess mucus goin on. RARELY comes out of his hide & yawns alot. I tried to feed him tonight & after a long time of "mousie dancing" and having him think about it he actually grabbed it, wrapped around it, found the head and started eatin, but he gave up at the shoulders. :(

i've been keeping the temps up. around 82-85 cool side, 95-97 warm side. last time he had a cough it was really bad. upping the temps did the trick & he got over it on his own, but this one actually doesn' have him caughing nearly as bad, but he's not shaking it.

i'm callin the vet in the morning to make an appointment ASAP and hopfully they'll have an opening Friday morning cuz that's about the soonest time i can get it done. I'm sure some antibiotics will do the trick.

i'll keep you guys posted.

Best wishes, bro - what are keeping the humidity at?

humidity WAS up for a recent shed, but now it's down around 50%. i figured if it was a little less humid it might help dry up the mucus in his lungs

URI's never just "go away" on their own. The symptoms may subside, but without anti-biotics the infection will remain.

That "crank up the heat and hope it goes away" advice is like trying to treat a human disease with chicken bones and tulips!

Getting your snake to a qualified vet for anti-biotics is the ONLY way to cure the infection.

-adam

aight, thanks adam.

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

URI's never just "go away" on their own. The symptoms may subside, but without anti-biotics the infection will remain.

That "crank up the heat and hope it goes away" advice is like trying to treat a human disease with chicken bones and tulips!

Getting your snake to a qualified vet for anti-biotics is the ONLY way to cure the infection.

-adam

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Not to start a big to-do (I don't have time for those right now), but it sounds as if you are saying that ball pythons are entirely lacking in immune systems and/or never encounter respiratory infections in the wild and therefore have not adapted to cope with them. I'll admit that I am not a biologist or zoologist, but that does seem highly unlikely to me. That doesn't mean that a captive snake with an RI should not be taken to the vet, but anti-biotics as the ONLY way for the RI to be completely shed(presumably, short of death)? That jars with my (albeit limited) understanding of immunology.

I think in the wild they adapt to a whole lot more than when captive.
I would think it was less unlikely for a bp to get an R/I in the wild as opposed to being confined in a cage with limited air movement and exchange.

I would also think they could indeed shake it quicker in the wild where they can move about and encounter different air, temps etc than being in a cage and catching a R/I and the germ staying confined in the area.
Sure dropping the humidity and raising the temps may help but unless you air out and disinfect the cage and everything in it I don't see how it could go away.
Besides I really don't think we know enough about them and the wild to know if when sick in the wild they may know of different things to do or eat etc where being captive they are limited to what we give them.

Then again a lot of them when getting sick in the wild may just die and then again maybe they don't get as sick as often as when being captive.

Just my 2cents and logical thinking :)

Good point Marla.

The ball pythons in captivity have not been exposed to the same situations and conditions that a wild ball python would experience. This might actually cause a weaker immune system. I would figure ball python immune systems would be similar to human immune systems. Kinda like the kid that stayed inside all of the time and ended up becoming sickly adult because they were never exposed to certain things. Then you had kids like me that ate dirt and was always getting into stuff and rarely get sick as an adult. The more a person is exposed to generally the stronger the immune system. Maybe it is the same with ball pythons. That is just speculation.....but I think it might be a good reason for the needed medical assistance.

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Originally Posted by Marla

Not to start a big to-do (I don't have time for those right now),

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Hmmm .... I'm not sure what this means, but if you're going to quote one of my posts and question it, then I'm going to infer that you'd like me to respond.

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Originally Posted by Marla

but it sounds as if you are saying that ball pythons are entirely lacking in immune systems and/or never encounter respiratory infections in the wild and therefore have not adapted to cope with them.

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Cute, but your assumptions are incorrect. I said nothing even remotely close.

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Originally Posted by Marla

I'll admit that I am not a biologist or zoologist, but that does seem highly unlikely to me. That doesn't mean that a captive snake with an RI should not be taken to the vet, but anti-biotics as the ONLY way for the RI to be completely shed(presumably, short of death)? That jars with my (albeit limited) understanding of immunology.

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A respiratory infection is just that, an infection. Anti-biotics are hands down the most effective way to cure any infection. I don’t think there is a veterinarian in the world that would disagree.

Animals in captivity generally have weaker immune systems than their wild counter parts. There is a natural stress involved with being a "captive" and that stress impacts the immune system. Therefore you cannot compare the way the immune system of a wild animal works compared to a captive. That coupled with the fact that the conditions in captivity that allow ball pythons to get respiratory infections are avoidable in natural habitats resulting in respiratory infections in captive animals that are many times more severe than infections the animals see in the wild.

If you had a better understanding of ball python physiology and diseases you'd certainly know that in captive ball pythons respiratory infections are well established and already very dangerous by the time the average keeper notices the first external symptoms (clicking, popping, wheezing). An experienced keeper that knows how to identify the early symptoms of a URI might very well be able to cure it by bolstering the immune system through an increase in ambient temperatures, but as you've reminded me in the past Marla, most of the readers of this site are beginners and you've asked that the advice I give be given with that in mind. So that's exactly what I did.

I hope this helps you to understand a little better. :D

-adam

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Hmmm .... I'm not sure what this means, but if you're going to quote one of my posts and question it, then I'm going to infer that you'd like me to respond.

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Yes, I wanted you to respond, just wanted to give you a heads-up that if you wanted to do one of our longer discussions/explorations, I'm a little short on time for that right now.

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

A respiratory infection is just that, an infection. Anti-biotics are hands down the most effective way to cure any infection. I don’t think there is a veterinarian in the world that would disagree.

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There are certainly MDs and MD/PhDs that would disagree with that assertion, and I can't imagine that all DVMs would have avoided reading the studies to the contrary. Some infections are not susceptible to antibiotics, some are better treated with other approaches, and some it is better to let the immune system fight and build immunity to.

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Animals in captivity generally have weaker immune systems than their wild counter parts. There is a natural stress involved with being a "captive" and that stress impacts the immune system.

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Agreed, that is well-established, just as humans with high stress levels often have more difficulty fighting off viruses and bacteria that come around. But just as a human with a compromised immune system (say, from lupus or malnutrition or stress) might be able to fight off a cold and yet benefit from medical supervision of the process, so might an animal with a compromised immune system or less than ideal conditions.

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Therefore you cannot compare the way the immune system of a wild animal works compared to a captive.

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So if comparing a captive ball python's immune system to a wild ball python's immune system is not an option, to what would you compare it? I can't think of a more natural comparison to make, which is not to say equation, just comparison.

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

That coupled with the fact that the conditions in captivity that allow ball pythons to get respiratory infections are avoidable in natural habitats resulting in respiratory infections in captive animals that are many times more severe than infections the animals see in the wild.

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No one said that the RI wouldn't be a challenge. It might be a reasonable comparison to say a wild bp with an RI could be compared to a human with a bad cold, whereas a captive bp with an RI could be compared with a child with mononucleosis. It's more difficult to shake, takes considerably longer to recover from, may open the door to opportunistic infections of other types, may be fatal, may have long-lasting effects on metabolism, energy, immunity, and production of hormones and other bodily chemicals, but can be fought and overcome with proper attention and care by most of those who encounter it nonetheless.

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

If you had a better understanding of ball python physiology and diseases you'd certainly know that in captive ball pythons respiratory infections are well established and already very dangerous by the time the average keeper notices the first external symptoms (clicking, popping, wheezing).

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Actually I was well aware of that fact, but thanks for the reminder. It's always good to bear in mind that there's more going on than what is casually observable. When I pointed out to Alan Bosch that one of his baby bp's had an RI at a show and he hadn't noticed it yet, does that mean that I should consider him an inexperienced keeper?

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

An experienced keeper that knows how to identify the early symptoms of a URI might very well be able to cure it by bolstering the immune system through an increase in ambient temperatures, but as you've reminded me in the past Marla, most of the readers of this site are beginners and you've asked that the advice I give be given with that in mind. So that's exactly what I did.

I hope this helps you to understand a little better. :D

-adam

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I do appreciate your bearing in mind the experience level of most of this site's readers. You may have noticed that I have never advocated avoiding a vet trip for an RI and have often enthusiastically encouraged one and informed visitors that RIs are too often fatal in captive bp's. You can double-check me by searching if you like. But I disagree that antibiotics are the answer to every infection or that it is not possible for any captive bp to completely rid itself of an RI given enough time and care.