The WTF Project (WTF Morphs): Looking For Thoughts

Hi everyone, I am looking to get thoughts on our WTF project. At this point, it is just fun and not genetic although there are some consistent traits that is causing me excitement and/or confusion depending on the day. Don't dismiss it as a Paradox quite yet, especially considering the pairing and at least hear me out.

The WTF was produced in November 2013 from a Mojave X Pinstripe pairing. Both were purchased from NERD, the Mojave had been there for a few years to be a breeder but ended up never producing a clutch and I purchased him at breeder size. The clutch results produced 1.1 Normal, 1.1 Jigsaw, 1.2 Mojave, and 1.0 WTF. Here is the pairing that produced him:
https://scontent-b-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/...98538668_o.jpghttps://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.n...87209566_o.jpg
https://scontent-a-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/...48738708_o.jpg


Imagine my surprise when I started seeing this when opening the eggs:
https://scontent-b-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/...13421670_o.jpghttps://scontent-a-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/...36871068_o.jpghttps://scontent-a-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/...ff&oe=53F1307Ehttps://scontent-b-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/...95776706_o.jpg

My initial reaction was pure excitement, however disappointment as I was convinced he was some kind of weird one off due to either incubation (no issues noted), development, or some weird paradox (although the pairing does not support a paradox white snake like this). However, as I started to look at the siblings in the clutch I started to see some consistency, especially in their eyes. The following are all siblings of the same clutch:
https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.n..._8566629_o.jpghttps://scontent-a-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/...49781420_o.jpghttps://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.n...50468151_o.jpghttps://scontent-a-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/...05864654_o.jpg
https://scontent-b-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/...69733743_o.jpghttps://scontent-a-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/...76170054_o.jpghttps://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.n...74619008_o.jpghttps://scontent-b-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/...60680557_o.jpg
https://scontent-a-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/...58476085_o.jpg


Then I looked at a couple from a different clutch; different Dam but same sire:
https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.n...81002549_o.jpghttps://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.n...67396180_o.jpghttps://scontent-a-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/...31888110_o.jpghttps://scontent-a-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/...62604452_o.jpghttps://scontent-b-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/...19137240_n.jpghttps://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.n...52145935_n.jpghttps://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.n...93193934_n.jpg

That Mojave from the different clutch (same sire) is really telling, plus some of the traits in that normal girl.

Here are updated photos of the WTF, and some comparing him to the sire:
https://scontent-b-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/...45231422_n.jpghttps://scontent-a-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/...34553343_n.jpghttps://scontent-b-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/...30552127_n.jpghttps://scontent-b-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/...53250827_n.jpg


So...in short, what do you guys think of him and the project? Possibility of genetic? Do you see common traits among the offspring of that Mojave sire? Am I grasping at straws?

The sire and dam that produced the WTF are currently breeding and she is near ovulation so hopefully I will have more information soon. Exciting no matter what the outcome, and he is a stunning, one of a kind animal regardless if it ends up genetic or not.

So...thoughts?

Only one way you're going to find out: Breeding

On another note, is it normal for those Mojave eyes to look blue? (I'm not a morph expert)
Anyway, to me, it sort of looks an incubation issue may have hindered the production of melanin in snake, which would explain the white patches and lighter color. Or if you're lucky, it's not an incubation issue but a genetic mutation. But again, refer to step one. ;)
Very pretty the guy is; you're lucky to have hatched him out. :)

Breeding is definitely the plan, should of been more clear that I know nothing can be known for sure until I having breeding results.

The blue eyes are not common in Mojaves, nor are the stew colored eyes. One of the traits that seems to be passed on from the sire.

No matter what, I was definitely extremely lucky :)

Thanks for the feedback!!

While this is a very weird occurrence, I have reason to believe that what is possibly happening is perhaps the super form the Mojo is bleeding through. Hopefully what you have is something genetic similar to Wilbank's atomic gene, but I am thinking it is some paradox/parthogenic BEL related mishap.

if we assume that its genetic, then that does not leave many options. if its genetic, it could be dominant, incomplete dominant, recessive, or it could be a polygenetic trait.

and in BP breeding, people dont work much with polygenetic traits. if several unknown genes need to come together then it takes a lot of time and a lot of inbreeding to get results, and these resulting BPs wont really be compatible with the base morph combination and recombination that BP breeders like to do.

i think you should further investigate both the eye color thing, and the weird paradox thing. these eyes really look cool, it would be nice if they can be reproduced.

about the eyes: did you get any clutches where some of the babies have these silver eyes, and the rest of them have normal eyes?

anyway, just keep breeding, and for both traits (silver eyes and strange paradox), you need to see if you can confirm or falsify any of these assumptions:

- its dominant
- its incomplete dominant
- its recessive
- its a polygenetic trait
and because you only hatched one with the big paradox, for the paradox there is one more option:
- its a random freak of nature

He's beautiful, whatever he is.

Unfortunately I think it is unlikely to turn out to be genetic. The way I see it, you basically have 2 possibilities: single allele or multi allele.

If it was multi allele, you'd expect to see a range of high to low expression, but you don't really have that. There are some multi allele traits that will only show up when you have the exact combination of genes, but those are rather rare from what I understand.

If it was single allele, you again have 2 possibilities. It could be dominant or the single gene version of a co-dom trait. We can pretty much rule this out since neither parent shows the trait. That leaves the super form of a codom trait or a recessive trait. That's possible. The eyes may even be an indication of the single gene form of a codom trait. But it seems unlikely that if NERD had this gene floating around in their collection, that they haven't disocvered it themselves by now.

The only remaining genetic possibility that I can think of is a mutation that occurred during the formation of the egg or sperm that eventually became this snake. That does happen, but unless you've done something like expose the animals to radiation to increase the chances of mutations, it is extremely unlikely.

So, at this point in my thought process, it seemed highly likely that this gorgeous guy is some sort of paradox with the super form of the mojave showing through. Except, I went back and looked at the pics and noticed how funky his pattern is. I thought paradox animals usually have a normal pattern, just unexpected colors such as splashes of black on an albino. But... this guy's pattern is anything but normal. Since incubation stresses can cause both weird colors and weird patterns, I guess that might be most likely.

I hope you'll keep us updated! He's beautiful and it would be awesome if it did turn out genetic. Even if he isn't, the eyes are intriguing, and you have enough examples of those that something genetic going on there seems more likely.

Would be nice if nerd let one slip out the door without knowing it!
Even if it's not genetic he's hot!
Keep updates, I would love to see what this years pairing produces.
Good luck!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by brock lesser

Would be nice if nerd let one slip out the door without knowing it!
Even if it's not genetic he's hot!
Keep updates, I would love to see what this years pairing produces.
Good luck!

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yeah, thats the one thing im thinking.... fader.

i dont see atomic at all, but if this proves out to be recessive, maybe its fader.

this is amazing. I really hope you can re-create it

I can't wait to see what this proves out to be, whether its genetic or not, these guys are still amazing looking. We were lucky enough to get the strange Mojave male from the first clutch produced by the sire. He is almost 600g now, and we are working close with Josh on what we breed him to and what he produces. He and his crazy WTF brother are strange yet intriguing for sure. We thank Josh greatly for letting us have this guy, he is one of my favorites.

I'll share a few photo's of him in order of age :)

Shortly after we got him from Josh
https://scontent-a-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/...57214336_n.jpg
https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.n...61480238_n.jpg

Getting a little size to him

https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.n...54362229_o.jpg
https://scontent-b-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/...82890200_o.jpg
https://scontent-b-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/...04911916_o.jpg

With his future date Vanilla ph Pied/Hypo.

https://scontent-b-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/...69408529_o.jpg

Around 450g here.

https://scontent-a-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/...55060910_o.jpg
https://scontent-b-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/...49763161_n.jpg
https://scontent-b-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/...39935530_o.jpg

Around 500g

https://scontent-a-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/...01690243_o.jpg
https://scontent-b-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/...67990829_o.jpg

And here in the past few sheds he has been getting more and more silver color on his belly scales, which I've not seen happen in any of my others over the years.

https://scontent-b-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/...61014977_o.jpg

And this is him the other week, he is getting his big boy colors. Lighter and lighter each shed.

https://scontent-a-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/...93284850_o.jpg


And a group shot Josh had taken at a recent expo in Manchester, NH of the two. They both are amazing looking. I know how excited Josh is about working on this WTF project.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.n...39710131_o.jpg