Ultramel v. Crider Update?

I was hoping someone might have a definitive answer now whether they're the same gene (or at least allelic and compatible) or are they different incompatible lines like the axanthics?

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Originally Posted by Badgemash

I was hoping someone might have a definitive answer now whether they're the same gene (or at least allelic and compatible) or are they different incompatible lines like the axanthics?

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As of right now they have been proven not to be compatible...

Brock Wagner bred Visual Ultramel x Het Crider and out of 8 or 9 eggs got all Normals.

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Originally Posted by coldbloodaddict

As of right now they have been proven not to be compatible...

Brock Wagner bred Visual Ultramel x Het Crider and out of 8 or 9 eggs got all Normals.

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Thanks, I have been avoiding the gene until I had a definitve answer. I was leery since I see a lot of listings for Ultramel (Crider) or Ultramel/Crider and I'm kind of wondering if some people even know which line they have.

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Originally Posted by Badgemash

Thanks, I have been avoiding the gene until I had a definitve answer. I was leery since I see a lot of listings for Ultramel (Crider) or Ultramel/Crider and I'm kind of wondering if some people even know which line they have.

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Just get some Ultramel stuff from a reliable breeder...make sure the genetics trace back to Noah in Africa... they were originally called Noah line African Caramels.

It is weird people with Criders are using the term Ultra too...Probably because Criders don't sell...I actually emailed one person recently asking when they had been proven compatible...lol



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Okay, for a second excuse my ignorance but, is the Ultramel known for not having the genetic deficiencies, kinks and whatnot found in most other caramel albino BP's? And, do the Ultramels have the same eye colour as Crider line CaramelsÉ
This is why I have been so interested in acquiring Criders. They have a great look and seem to be missing the downside of working with other animals that have a similar appearance.

Edit: I have found one person with "het Criders", time to check BOI`s on the seller.

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Originally Posted by coldbloodaddict

It is weird people with Criders are using the term Ultra too...Probably because Criders don't sell...I actually emailed one person recently asking when they had been proven compatible...lol

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Yeah, I was at a show recently and looking at a "100% het Ultramel female" and after chatting with the guy for a few minutes he slipped and said she's definitely 100% het Crider. When I called him on it he told me they're the same thing. Needless to say I walked away from that one.

Yeah, there are a lot of people out there who are mis-labeling ultramels and criders. Thus far, they have not been proven compatible. While this could be argued that it is still up for discussion, the chances of Brock hatching an ultramel in his clutch of a visual ultramel to het crider female, there was less than a 1% chance (a .39% or 1 in 256) chance that he would not produce a visual in a clutch of 8 eggs-- in the chance that they were compatible. While its possible, those are convincing numbers to support the idea that they're not compatible. It's not iron clad, but that's the way the cookie crumbles for now at least.

I figure that one shouldn't say they're compatible until it has been proven. Saying they're compatible until its disproven is contrary to logic. I don't know why someone would have wanted to confuse them like that in the first place. The crider is a really cool morph in an of itself, even if they look very similar. It could very well be like the axanthic situation where the different lines of a very similar phenotype are incompatible.

I am working with the ultramel gene, and I am very skeptical from whom I would buy from. I also have only purchased my original stock from one person, as I know there will be no compatibility issues. I personally feel like anyone who considers them the same genetic mutation until without convincing evidence is either shady or unaware of genetics and the scientific method. Either way, I wouldn't want to do business with them in either situation.


I just found one of Brock's posts on Reptile Radio:

http://www.reptileradio.net/ball-pyt...tramels-3.html

He said he had 9 eggs, which is 1 in 512 or .195% of hatching a visual in that clutch.

I agree on the buying from a reputable breeder, I'd love to get my hands on one of these... http://www.worldofballpythons.com/morphs/ultra-pied/ (actually he has an untramel enchi on the available page which says reasonable offers, but something tells me that "reasonable" + export from Germany = still way over my snake budget).

I have decided my collection of color changing recessive genes just won't be complete until I have ultramel, so I guess I know what my target animal for 2014 is...