Affordable and safe ways to make a patternless black BP

Hi there :)

Its one of these things that have been in the back of my mind for quite a while.

super cinnamon or super black pastel would be very affordable, but very unsafe, i would not want to risk issues with duckbill and maybe even spine kinks.

does the combo of cinnamon and black pastel, the 8-ball, also have these issues? i tried to figure it out but google was not helpful.

then i know two alternatives that do not have issues, that would be super GHI and super mahogany. Does anyone know where the price for these would be right now?

are there other ways to do a patternless black that i have missed?

and finally to tie it all up: what is the cheapest way to make a patternless black, without the risk of genetic issues like duckbill or spine kinks?

(EDIT: this is of course related to the question: How to make a healthy panda pied)

dunno about any genetic problems with the eight ball but i doubt because there's no super morph in that combo but then again cinny and black pastels are nearly the same gene wise. i would wait for a more experienced breeder/keeper to come along to help a little more :)

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Originally Posted by Pythonfriend

does the combo of cinnamon and black pastel, the 8-ball, also have these issues? i tried to figure it out but google was not helpful.

then i know two alternatives that do not have issues, that would be super GHI and super mahogany. Does anyone know where the price for these would be right now?

are there other ways to do a patternless black that i have missed?

and finally to tie it all up: what is the cheapest way to make a patternless black, without the risk of genetic issues like duckbill or spine kinks?

My advice would just use a black pastel or cinnamon to make a super. (and note that a super cinnamon is brown not black)
Yes genetic defects are a possibility, but many people out there have successfully hatched out healthy normal supers.

(EDIT: this is of course related to the question: How to make a healthy panda pied)

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Yes. An 8 ball has the same issues as super black pastel and super cinnamon.

Sorry, I don't know the price for a super GHI/mahogany, but I imagine they're *very* expensive.


Panda Pied is a Super Black Pastel Pied. Using any other morph will not make it a Panda Pied. A Super Cinnamon Pied is a White Panda Pied.

My advice would be to just use a black pastel/cinnamon. Yes, they have a chance for defects, but remember that many people have successfully hatched out healthy defect free animals. It's just one of the things you have to deal with as a breeder.
(and note that a super cinny is brown, not black)

right i had a feeling that they will as i said the morphs are nearly 100% the same so i'm not surprised about that :)

Some morphs are more prone to defects? Why?

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Originally Posted by pkore1015

Some morphs are more prone to defects? Why?

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It's because we're dealing with genetic mutations and combined genetics.
- Sometimes some mutations are more prone to defects than others. (Example: All spiders have neurological issues that make their head wobble to various degrees)

- Sometimes mutations do weird stuff when combined with others.(Example: Cinnamon and Black Pastels are generally fine on their own. But when combined into a 'super', they tend to be prone to spinal kinks and facial defects, such as duck billing.

- Sometimes mutations are not compatible with each other. (Example: Some mutations are lethal when combined and do not survive like the Super Champagne)

Some of these mutations/combinations would have otherwise been most likely selected out of the gene pool in nature. But in captivity they survive since there is no natural selection.

Here's a good reference to all the genetic issues in morphs:
http://www.owalreptiles.com/issues.php

not sure if this links work but if they don't can someone fix it for me cheers :)

http://youtu.be/uStCAKMbnqQ Lethal Ball Python Combos Part 1

http://youtu.be/-fhnR5YdGdI
Lethal Ball Python combos Part 2

thanks so far :)

i assumed any pied that only features solid white and solid black would be called a panda pied.

the first video link works, and from there the second part is really easy to find. but all the information in the video has been included in
http://www.owalreptiles.com/issues.php anyway.

Does anyone have ideas on how to make a patternless black/very dark snake other than the methods mentioned?

so far we have:

super black pastel / super cinny / 8-ball <--- prone to known defects
super GHI <--- genetically sound but expensive
super mahogany / SUMA <--- genetically sound but expensive

more ideas, anyone?

Also, if someone could come up with a price, doesnt need to be too accurate, for a pair of mahoganys or a super mahogany, and the same for GHI, that would be nice. Then i can estimate how many more years it will be until its available for me :) I have some ideas about the price of GHI, but mahogany is hard for me to grasp because its sort of like an expensive underdog gene. Expensive and nice but the market is rather small and few people care about it.

If you can get some truthful information, buy your black pastels from a line that produces little defects. Some snakes produce defects consistently, others almost never. Super cinnys tend to turn brown, so I would go with black pastel if I were looking for a black snake at an affordable price. Not sure about the 8 ball.