What line of caramel are these???

These babies were produced by breeding my caramel male with a caramel female possible yet ultramel. The clutch consisted of 2 hets, 4 "dark caramels" and 2 super clean bright ones. These animals look like completely different lines and I'm curious what lines alexactl I am working with over here. Any ideas would be great, hopefully there are some knowledgable people with caramel experience on this site to help me out:) thank you

http://i1049.photobucket.com/albums/...psa37f4cf9.jpg
http://i1049.photobucket.com/albums/...psa37f4cf9.jpg
http://i1049.photobucket.com/albums/...ps5e3a6e2d.jpg
http://i1049.photobucket.com/albums/...ps5e3a6e2d.jpg
http://i1049.photobucket.com/albums/...ps91776fd9.jpg
http://i1049.photobucket.com/albums/...ps91776fd9.jpg
http://i1049.photobucket.com/albums/...ps2095cab4.jpg
http://i1049.photobucket.com/albums/...ps2095cab4.jpg

I don't think you can tell carmel lines apart by just looking a them, if you didn't know the lines before then who knows what lines they are? Just like any morph there can be color variances, poor examples, great examples;lighter & darker ones in the same morph?
Ultramels aren't compatable with the regular carmel so it couldn't be that.

I'm aware that they are not compatible and also that there are different grades. What I am curious about is the fact that there are clearly 2 that look like the left and 4 that look like the right. Also there are 2 normals in the clutch from from caramel to caramel which should not be possible. Also the father fathered another caramel to caramel clutch this year which came out all hets which should not be possible. The mother of the all her clutch may have been retained spe from a previous breeding but for the second mother to pop out hets from the same male is weird. The male looks like a normal caramel.....

that normal-looking hets show up is indeed bizarre.


apart from that, you might have mixed up two lines. like, for example, when producing blue-eye lucys, you can easily mix up lesser, butter, het russo, mystic. almost all of these super-forms or 2-gene-combos look almost identical.



maybe there is line A and line B, and your male is homozygous line A, and your female is heterozygous line A and line B. of course both lines sit on the same locus & chromosome. So the offspring would be: 50% homozygous line A (like dad) and 50% Het line A and het line B (like mom).

But i cannot explain the normal-looking ones, really not. you dont get normals when breeding toffino to albino, or toffee to albino, or toffino to toffino. You dont get normals when you breed mystic potion to super mystic or mystic potion to mystic potion. All offspring should be caramel-like looking 2-gene combos of the two lines at work.

Could you add pictures of the normal-looking ones and the parents? (or maybe put them all in one family-picture?)

It's a possibility that one of the parents is visually a different line, but is het for the same line as the other parent. If we're throwing out the possibility of retained sperm, that would explain the normal hets since it would be from a het x visual paring.

Where did your male come from? Two not particularly likely scenarios I can think of:

1. Your male is an ultramel, maybe het caramel also. Maybe some of the babies are ultramels, some caramels, and perhaps some both.
2. Your male is a chimera with some of his reproductive organs from a het or normal sibling. Maybe you also have the hypo gene on one side or the other and the lighter caramels are het hypos. Or for all I know maybe ultamel is like hypo and the hets are often brighter so maybe the light ones are the caramels that got the het ultramel gene from mom.

Ok here is the family pictures. Left in my collection is the father, mother from the clutch that produced all hets, and the babies from the second clutch of which the mother was a breeding loan. The order will be placing these is.....

Father produced both clutches
mother 1 produced all hets when bred to father
mother 2 I don't have access to as she was a loan. Father and mother 2 produced 2 hets, 4 dark caramels, and 2 very clean light caramels. These animals look like completely different morphs. Especially in person the difference is night and day.
All of these adult caramels were purchased in collections and no previous genetics is known about them.

Father
http://i1049.photobucket.com/albums/...n/SAM_1078.jpg
father
http://i1049.photobucket.com/albums/...n/SAM_1070.jpg
Mother1 and father
http://i1049.photobucket.com/albums/...psb6c7ad41.jpg
Mother1 and father
http://i1049.photobucket.com/albums/...psd7099db8.jpg
Het baby from clutch 2
http://i1049.photobucket.com/albums/...ps1b3bd336.jpg
Het baby from clutch 2
http://i1049.photobucket.com/albums/...ps689bd034.jpg
clean baby clutch 2
http://i1049.photobucket.com/albums/...pseb74e1da.jpg
Clean baby clutch 2
http://i1049.photobucket.com/albums/...psff4f00a5.jpg
Dark baby clutch 2
http://i1049.photobucket.com/albums/...ps0c187fae.jpg
Dark baby clutch 2
http://i1049.photobucket.com/albums/...psb2545bab.jpg

Ps the possibility of retained sperm only applies to mother 1. Mother 2 was jus a pet and the only snake the guy had which he had as a baby. So sperm retention for her is very very very unlikely...

The male was bought in a collection sale I picked up. Not much is known about any of these animals. There are many possibilities for what is going on I'm just hoping that someone can look at these animals and say hey that looks just like the ...... Line I'm working with and that would explain....... Lol which probably won't happen. If they were het ultramel is there anyone that could look at the babies and say yes.... Thats an ultramel..... Or hey that's a crider, or bell.

this is enigmatic. I hope someone can figure it out, ill keep watching this thread.


here is what i would do: keep them all, except for the hets, buy a female caramel (maybe also a male) with paperwork from a known breeder and a known line and just keep breeding them and eventually start your own line once you figured out whats going on ^^

or just keep breeding the male to the two females and see what happens next year. Maybe next year you will get two clutches of caramels and no normal-looking hets, mother 1 might be a case of retained sperm. mother 2 i dont know.