Cage Heating (Radiant Panel vs Belly Heat)

So I am looking into getting a 421D cage from boaphile for my spider. When I bought her off of KS (She was one of my firsts) It looked like she had suffered from burns from a heat matt or something along those lines. Anyways, She is my favourite so I want to set her up well lol. So for heating, Everything is a bit fuzzy for me, which is better? The panel or the belly heat with the flexiwatt? I also have a Rhinorax from boaphile with a double thermostat for the rest of my snakes (also balls) but there is only one prob. How would I measure the tempature using these thermostats without a prob? Or do I need a COMPLETELY different thermostat, all for that one cage? I am not experienced with flexiwatt or the Radiant Panel at all. And with the panel, how is that hooked up to a cage like the 421D? Inside? Would it burn them? Or do I need some sort of cover for it?

Seperate question, her belly has always looked rough since I got her. The marks scared me when I first got her because I thought it was some sort of scale rot. I took her to the vet and he said it may be somesort of bacterial infection if it wasn't burns & gave me injections to give her for 4 weeks. Nothing changed and that was 6 months ago and nothing has worsened either. She hasn't acted unhealthy, she eats well, is active at night, clean sheds, but lately she has not wanted to sleep under her hide, just under her basking light. The temperature where she sits is 90-91 so I'm ASSUMING she is just basking but its odd to me she doesn't care if she is out in the open at all anymore.... Should I be worried?

Thanks!

I personally use radiant heat panels and they have worked great for me BUT there are some guys out here that will tell you that they will not work efficiently enough for terrestrial snakes like the ball python, however mine work great (I have them in all 7 cages!)and I love them. They install inside the cage and you do not need a cover on them. They do heatup but because they are on the cceiling they do not heat up hot enough for your animal to burn itself. I would stay away from flexwatt for the belly heat if thats the way you go. There are much more safer brands of UTH available. As for the scale thing im not sure what that could be ?

I don't like RHP for terrestrial set ups. They heat from the top down, the top of the hide is hotter than the bottom where you need it. They work, just not efficiently, to my mind a 8w unit set at 93ºF delivering 90ºF temps is more efficient than a 40w unit set at 120º delivering 90ºF. I don't like having a heat source over 100ºF inside the cage no matter where it is. Some say it should be caged off, I am on the fence. They both are radiant heat meaning they they objects not air much like the sun. I have been running an experiment and have proven and been basically back by the designer of spyder robotics that the surface and colour of the objects will effect how much heat is absorbed. Neither makes massive changes in ambient air temps although due to the higher operational temps of RHP (some run them in the 130ºF on the surface) it does translate to a few more degrees. Personally I have two panels and one in arboreal set up (perfect it places heat where you need it and the gradient the direction it needs to be up and down). The second is in a test enclosure granted my test is in a room that is cool averaging 62 this month but the best air temp I have got this month is 67 hardly a massive increase especially given the panel runs at 135º to hold an 88º floor temp.

The behaviour of your snake sounds like poor ambient air temps these should be held to 75 at the lowest and 85 at the upper edges with a good range being 77-83ºF for most of the time. Burns come in two flavours contact burns and term burns. Contact burns come from momentary contact of a very hot surface like if you touch the burner in an oven very short times to a very hot surface. There should be NOTHING the snake can touch to cause a contact burn they are easy to prevent. Term burns are very uncommon in people we do not lay against a hot object for hours and become burned we move first. Snakes do not always. They are a lot of talk about poor thermal sensitivity ect. This I personally do not feel is accurate snakes need to thermal regulate and must sense temps reasonably well. I believe that the thermal sensitivity is more like an averaging temp they will lay against a overly warm object for a long time if the ambient temps are low in an attempt to raise their core temp. This can (and does) result in burns. I believe that many burns are linked to too cool ambient temps. A snake kept in correct ambient temps will avoid hotter than they should be objects.


I am also not a huge fan of flexwatt it is cheap that is about it. i prefer ultratherms as they do not get excessively hot no matter what.

It depends on your situation. I like my home cold and it stays around 68. Because of this I opted to get both rhp and uth in my 4x2 pvc cages. Now the cages I ordered are made of a thinner grade pvc and are therefore not as well insulated as thicker walled cages.

The rhp are mounted to the interior of the cage and do not need a cover. They do get hot to the touch but your snake should not be in contact with it long enough to do any harm.

I found that the rhp in my cages could provide a correct hotspot for my snake but they do not heat the air in the cage much.For a snake that would lay under a rhp without a hide like a perched gtp I think they are by far the best choice. For a snake that like using a hide I personally feel the uth is the best choice. The rhp does not heat the interior of a hide very well and instead heats the surface of the top of the hide. I have found that for my situation the uth produces a better hotspot area.

Even using both types my heaters my cages ambient temps were to low and I had to start heating the room with am oil filled heater. I think that if I didn't keep my home as cold as I do I wouldn't have to heat the room but I like it cold so I converted my spare room to a designated snake room.

As for the tstat you will need a probe so you will need to get another one. If your keeping animals that can use the same temps you can put all rhp on a power strip and then plug that into the tstat. Just make sure the tstat you buy is rated to handle the load. If you choose to use both heater types you could use a Herpstat 2 which has two ports with two probes. You could then plug all rhp to one power strip and all the uth to a second power strip and the unit could control all the devices for a few cages. That will only work to have all the cages produce the same temps. If each cage has an animal with different needs than the others you will need more tstats and one that can control several devices like the Herpstat 4.

I have a Herpstat 4 running lights on four cages, the same temps for three rhp and three uth on three cages, and operate a rhp for a separate cage.

I state my case! Lol. The reason some people cant seem to get their panels to work the way they are supposed to , is that they mount the temp probe to the face of the panel and try to control the output temp of the panel to around 130 deg. That is the reason they are not getting satisfactory results. The panels were designed to run in the 170-190 range. Trying to control the output temps to 130 or lower renders them useless. But what do I know? Im just a guy that has 7 cages working flawlessly while some want to argue the relativity of nature lol. Best of luck my friend and please be careful of the bias views of some you find on this site. Just because they cant get theirs to work correctly doesn't mean the product doesnt work. Remember, its not about their egos, its about your animals health!!!

Ah yes I am appreciative of all of this information! I didn't even know about ultratherms. I'll look into that, Those I can just order and attach myself? Same with the panels? Is there a specific type of cage I should look for that would work best with the ultratherm & how are the applied to the cage? Do they stick to the bottom? Also, would she not get a contact burn if she rose up and touched the panel momentarily if it was running that hot? I

I didn't even think about the ambiant air being off, she is the only one in this horrible cage that is a pain >:|

What is everyones favourite type of enclosure that is simalar to the 421D?

Yes they both are 'plug and play'. Ultratherms are not self adhesive, so some tape would be needed they would be attached the same as any other type of UTH. They are low power low density units and rarely get over 100ºF I use them and have never needed more heat even in my cool rooms. There is no way to get a contact burn at 100ºF even as high as 180ºF if you can touch it is is likely safe for momentary contact. There are some (Dr. Del admin here) who does recommend 'caging RHPs' but he is in the minority. The cage you are suggesting is only 11.5 tall and the RHPs are usually about 2 inches deep (leaving only 9.5) and if the hide is 2 inches •mine are 3.5• (leaves only 7.5) I believe all or most RHPs this is inside the min safe distances so it is discounted anyway.

I like vision enclosures personally the roto system leaves round very easily cleaned corners over the slab construction. I am OCD and clean meticulously and fully disinfect so round corners make it easier.

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Originally Posted by norwegn113

I state my case! Lol. The reason some people cant seem to get their panels to work the way they are supposed to , is that they mount the temp probe to the face of the panel and try to control the output temp of the panel to around 130 deg. That is the reason they are not getting satisfactory results. The panels were designed to run in the 170-190 range. Trying to control the output temps to 130 or lower renders them useless. But what do I know? Im just a guy that has 7 cages working flawlessly while some want to argue the relativity of nature lol. Best of luck my friend and please be careful of the bias views of some you find on this site. Just because they cant get theirs to work correctly doesn't mean the product doesnt work. Remember, its not about their egos, its about your animals health!!!

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I dangle mine personally an animal should NEVER EVER come between a probe and a heat source for long. It blocks the heat with its body and causes the t-stat to kick in to full gear. I used my specific temps as a example as that is what I have this month. 130º gives me 90º on the top most surface a snake can lay, and 94º on the most dorsal surface of the animal (if there were an animal in my test enclosure) I never want any of mine to have a relatively small area heated beyond this as it is the point where body function becomes effected.

I just ask for simple fact. You claim they are more efficient, and yet they are higher wattage, and your example they lose up to 100ºF :O . I set uth to 91-2º and get basically 90º give or take half a degree here and there, for less power and lower purchase price. To my mind that is efficient. Unbiased opinion? Oxymoron. Opinions by nature are biased on experience. I use RHP in arboreal set ups they are super efficient this way, heat where and how you want it. I 100% recommend them this way as they were designed to be used. Terrestrial set ups I do not believe they are efficient or do what many claim, heat air. They cost more, lose more heat, (100º still blows me away) and need more power (in most cases 4x) to generate the same hot spot.

I personally do not feel that a snake should be subjected to higher temps on a surface they can lay upon greater than 94ºF the animals safety is paramount. This in my case means I cannot get the 'floor' warmer than 88ºF with out compromising this basic principal. RHP heats down not up. So the nearest thing to the panel two inches over it (thickness of the snake) should never be allowed to be greater than 94ºF.

What kind of tape & the UTHs can be attached to the bottom of that 421D? Without affecting the cage ? Stupid questions that I think I know the answer to but I want to triple check here. I don't want anything burning her or melting lol

What is a good single cage thermastat that y'all have found dependable?

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Originally Posted by norwegn113

I state my case! Lol. The reason some people cant seem to get their panels to work the way they are supposed to , is that they mount the temp probe to the face of the panel and try to control the output temp of the panel to around 130 deg. That is the reason they are not getting satisfactory results. The panels were designed to run in the 170-190 range. Trying to control the output temps to 130 or lower renders them useless. But what do I know? Im just a guy that has 7 cages working flawlessly while some want to argue the relativity of nature lol. Best of luck my friend and please be careful of the bias views of some you find on this site. Just because they cant get theirs to work correctly doesn't mean the product doesnt work. Remember, its not about their egos, its about your animals health!!!

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How do you mount your probe?
Do you have hides under the rhp?
What temp hotspot are you creating?

I have bloods, brb, and a gtp using rhp. They do not require a very warm hotspot so regardless of where the probe is I don't have to get much heat out of them.

You stated alot without giving any helpful hints to the op, like how to setup the probe.

I personally mount mine like this. They are stuck to the non heated rim of the rhp and do not contact the rhp at all. Like Kite said the snake should not come between the probe at any time and I like to put it where they are the less likely to ever contact it at all.

I Never said they didn't work only that I don't believe they are the best choice for a terrestrial animal. For a arboreal animal my choice is a rhp every time. It works great for my gtp.

They may also work better if the hide that they are over is not that deep. Mine is over a cat litter box about 5 inches deep door my blood. It nicely heats the top but from there to the ground it loses to much heat to work well for her.

http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/...020_115558.jpg

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Originally Posted by Lesserlove

What kind of tape & the UTHs can be attached to the bottom of that 421D? Without affecting the cage ? Stupid questions that I think I know the answer to but I want to triple check here. I don't want anything burning her or melting lol

What is a good single cage thermastat that y'all have found dependable?

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Most of us use foil tape. Just try to keep the tape on the edge of the heaters and not on the dark color heating element for the best results.