Black pastels and cinnamons

So I was potentially looking into buying a pair of black pastels to breed but I hear tell that their super form is known for having some deformities? Like duckbilling and apparently serious spinal problems.
Now, I'm fairly certain this is an issue of a narrow gene pool since if I'm not mistaken, a lot of line breeding went on with the black pastels but from what I read upon further searching, breeding a cinnamon with a black pastel will still give you a decent chance of producing a solid black snake with less of a chance of deformities occurring. Which seems just fine to me but I also read some things about how people didn't want to breed their cinnamons and black pastels together because it will make the resulting offspring browner. This seems kind of ridiculous to me because I've seen super cins and I've seen super black pastels and they honestly don't appear to be any blacker or browner than one or the other in my opinion.
Is it really that common that people want to sacrifice the health of the animals they produce just for appearances because I have a difficult time wrapping my head around that mentality.

Some people say that it doesn't hurt them. It's the same with spiders and caramels. People assume that if they eat, grow, and breed, they are ok. I never buy things that are deformed/mutated, with the exception of color/pattern mutations.

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Originally Posted by MisterKyte

So I was potentially looking into buying a pair of black pastels to breed but I hear tell that their super form is known for having some deformities? Like duckbilling and apparently serious spinal problems.
Now, I'm fairly certain this is an issue of a narrow gene pool since if I'm not mistaken, a lot of line breeding went on with the black pastels but from what I read upon further searching, breeding a cinnamon with a black pastel will still give you a decent chance of producing a solid black snake with less of a chance of deformities occurring. Which seems just fine to me but I also read some things about how people didn't want to breed their cinnamons and black pastels together because it will make the resulting offspring browner. This seems kind of ridiculous to me because I've seen super cins and I've seen super black pastels and they honestly don't appear to be any blacker or browner than one or the other in my opinion.
Is it really that common that people want to sacrifice the health of the animals they produce just for appearances because I have a difficult time wrapping my head around that mentality.

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Super black pastels are darker than super cinnies. Yes, black pastels have been known to have duck billing however I dont believe it is that prevalent. I have two non related black pastels and I will be breeding them together to try for the super form. They are becoming a popular morph and there is much outbreeding with the gene as far as I know. As far as I know duck billing will not affect the health of a snake that exhibits it.

I have heard that the Outback reptiles line of super black pastels are the blackest. They are very black.

I don't think its a common practice to jeopardize the health of an animal for their looks on purpose. Most breeders want both beautiful AND healthy snakes. But I don't find that there is a high percentage of duck billing to occur with the supers.

And I believe duck billing is more cosmetic than an actual hindering deformity.

In my personal opinion, I think that super black pastels are the blackest. But I'm sure there exceptions to both super forms.
And parental lines and looks probably affect supers as well.

I think if it were the result of inbreeding we'd be seeing similar deformities in recessive gened animals more since they basically require quite a bit of line breeding in the early stages of a new mutation to establish any decent number. Dominate and codominate are naturally outcrossed a great deal more since you don't need the components from both parents to reproduce the gene. I believe the super problem with these particular snakes has more to do with the morph than any kind of inbreeding. These are just my deductions from information I've gathered on the web. I'd love to learn that it is in fact only an issue of not enough outcrossing but why do people think black pastels have been inbred so much more than some other, typically healthy BP morphs out there? I plan on working with black pastel and cinnamon in the future but I won't be going for supers with either because I personally don't wish to deal with the head or heart ache that would surely come from increasing my chances of deformities.

The only clutch I've seen with supers was from unrelated cinnamons. One baby had duck bill, a kink, and a curly tail and the other just a little bit of odd snout. I also assumed it doesn't have anything to do with inbreeding to be showing up regularly in something as outred as a co-dominant mutation. However, I think it was TSK who posted that they have had good luck avoiding this problem by breeding black pastel to cinnamon. That was really unexpected to me as it looks like the problems are just a side effect of both mutations so I don't see how the combo would be better than either line by it's self but of course practical experience is more important than what I can imagine.

I've seen no difference in the super. There are, as the op mentioned, black cinnies and brown BP. The last two super cinnies I hatched were jet black.

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Originally Posted by Brandon Osborne

I've seen no difference in the super. There are, as the op mentioned, black cinnies and brown BP. The last two super cinnies I hatched were jet black.

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I agree. They're the same IMO.

Black pastels are a stronger gene then a cinnie. The cinnies have more duckbilling then the blacks. The super black pastel is alot darker then the super cinnamon. I think the op has the 2 confused