Cinnamon/Black pastel ID needed

I need ID help from the expert eyes here. Long story left long:

So I have two snake both bought as Cinnamons. When I first got them I thought they were just a lighter and darker cinny. At the same time another person said they thought one may be a black pastel, but since that ID was off one bad picture, we left it be.

I have researched since, had people show me comparisons at shows, and yet I always have trouble with IDing the differences without them already being pointed out.

Finally bred them together and unfortunately no super cinny. Bad luck and just not my year? At first I just accepted it as this, then I remembered the first confusion, and pursued this with another person. They said they believed two cinny's, but admitted were about as good as I am with cinnies to bl. pastels. At least this verified my original opinion.

I took advantage of a new acquaintance to get her opinion. She stated not being the best, but being a bit more confident at identifying the differences. Her opinion was that one was a bl pastel and one a cinny. The one she thought would be a bl pastel is the same one that I thought would be a bl pastel if either were to be one.

This IDing has bounced back and forth so much, I have un-convinced myself of my own opinion. Please help!
(Sorry for the pics, they wouldn't stay still like good little models)

http://i1193.photobucket.com/albums/...s/PB100054.jpg

http://i1193.photobucket.com/albums/...s/PB100055.jpg

http://i1193.photobucket.com/albums/...s/PB100056.jpg

http://i1193.photobucket.com/albums/...s/PB100057.jpg

http://i1193.photobucket.com/albums/...s/PB100059.jpg

http://i1193.photobucket.com/albums/...s/PB100060.jpg

http://i1193.photobucket.com/albums/...s/PB100062.jpg

http://i1193.photobucket.com/albums/...s/PB100063.jpg

http://i1193.photobucket.com/albums/...s/PB100064.jpg

http://i1193.photobucket.com/albums/...s/PB100065.jpg

http://i1193.photobucket.com/albums/...s/PB100066.jpg

http://i1193.photobucket.com/albums/...s/PB100067.jpg

http://i1193.photobucket.com/albums/...s/PB100068.jpg

http://i1193.photobucket.com/albums/...s/PB100069.jpg

http://i1193.photobucket.com/albums/...s/PB100070.jpg

They are both cinny's :)

Black pastel I sold to Brian(Simple Man) for example.
Notice all of the squiggly line above the spots in the aliens, cinny's do not have those.
http://i968.photobucket.com/albums/a...h/PICT6938.jpg
Hope that helps :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by snakesRkewl

They are both cinny's :)

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Thank you!

Hate to ask this, but could you go a step further and explain your reasoning as to why neither would be a bl pastel? Last person was pretty confident that one was a bl pastel and I am still trying to grasp the clear identifiable difference.

Thanks again!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by snakesRkewl

Black pastel I sold to Brian(Simple Man) for example.
Notice all of the squiggly line above the spots in the aliens, cinny's do not have those.
http://i968.photobucket.com/albums/a...h/PICT6938.jpg
Hope that helps :)

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Sorry what squiggly lines?

A close up, the squiggly lines are above the spots in the aliens...
http://i968.photobucket.com/albums/a...-Optimized.jpg

Maybe this will help better describe and show you the difference...

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...-Black-Pastels

Quote:

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Originally Posted by snakesRkewl

A close up, the squiggly lines are above the spots in the aliens...

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Okay thank you, I see it now :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by snakesRkewl

Black pastel I sold to Brian(Simple Man) for example.
Notice all of the squiggly line above the spots in the aliens, cinny's do not have those.
http://i968.photobucket.com/albums/a...h/PICT6938.jpg
Hope that helps :)

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Thanks, seems I was writing the response requesting further info while you were, in fact, posting further info. :)

"squiggly line:" you are referring to the darkening, right? I have been told that the darkening around the 'alien eyes' was a sign before.

Please look at the baby below. This came form the breeding of the pair. I see a light darkening around the 'alien eyes' in his pattern; is this not the same darkening that would suggest a bl pastel?

http://i1193.photobucket.com/albums/...s/PB160078.jpg

http://i1193.photobucket.com/albums/...s/PB160077.jpg

http://i1193.photobucket.com/albums/...s/PB160076.jpg

http://i1193.photobucket.com/albums/...s/PB160075.jpg

http://i1193.photobucket.com/albums/...s/PB160074.jpg

http://i1193.photobucket.com/albums/...s/PB160073.jpg

http://i1193.photobucket.com/albums/...s/PB160072.jpg

Some cinnies certainly do display a few squiggly lines making identification a bit trickier.
From the pictures posted at the beginning of the thread I would say they are definitely both cinnies.

If you breed cinny X black pastel your odds of producing an 8-ball are the same as if it was two cinnies trying to make a super cinny.
sorry you missed the odds, 1 in 4 doesn't always happen especially if it was a small clutch :(

black pastel hatchling
http://i968.photobucket.com/albums/a...-Optimized.jpg