What morph is this?

Please help me, I am now more confused then ever with this baby.

I started talking about this thread in this who's the daddy thread.. http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...ny-Serious-DUW .

If you read thru that thread you will see that most people think the snake in question is a top of the line normal pastel, or a below average Super Pastel.

But after looking at him again tonight, I realized one HUGE thing I missed origionally. He does NOT have pastel eyes. Everyone knows that any pastel has to have the greenish brown eyes. This things eyes are BLACK. They are blacker then even a normal ball python. How can it possibly be a pastel or super pastel without pastel eyes?

What has colors like this with absoltuely black eyes? Is it some kind of weird pewter? Don't pewters have pastel eyes though too?

Here are pics of the snake in question and his pastel mom. These pictures are taken using no flash. I am standing under a flourescent light. The glare of the flourescent light almost makes it look like there is a tiny bit of color there but trust me... in person they are BLACK.

http://i1136.photobucket.com/albums/...o/IMG_1664.jpg
http://i1136.photobucket.com/albums/...o/IMG_1666.jpg
http://i1136.photobucket.com/albums/...o/IMG_1669.jpg
http://i1136.photobucket.com/albums/...o/IMG_1674.jpg

Anywhoo be honest. If you still think it is just a good pastel let me know... You certainly won't hurt my feelings. I just want to try to figure out what I am dealing with here.

Mike

What was Sire in this pairing... ???

uhh Mkay i see now Cinny and Spider... soo Pictures of Sires ?? maybe that will help somehow ??

The mom is a plain old pastel. Honestly I would say she is below average in quality.

This snakes dad is almost certainly either a spider (nothing special, just an average spider), or a cinnamon (nothing special, just a high quality cinnamon). There is a SLIGHT chance the dad was a pastel but this is very unlikely. My breeding records show I never paired my male pastel with her... and that would also mean that the there were three fathers to one clutch. the siblings of this clutch are 2 excellent quality bumble bees, and one average quality cinnamon.

I honestly see a super pastel, and although the eyes are extremely dark like you pointed out, in the first pic you can see they still have a green cast to them. That's my bet, especially since you said that there is a small chance the sire was a pastel like the dam.

You know, I always thought all pastels had green eyes, but recently someone here said they don't always. :confused:

I swear that baby is a super pastel, but like you I'm at a loss as to how ?

Pewter I don't see there, I've seen lots of pewters and pewter photos, they don't even remotely resemble that baby.

This is almost as puzzling to me as it is to you, because that baby looks like something it should not be.

I guess we are both just going to have to wait until it sheds out a time or two and see how it changes.

If you ever get tired of looking at it, I'd gladly get it out of your sight. :D

Gale

Looks like a super and you just forgot to write down throwing the male pastel in with your female. The white head and lips are a give away. Also, with pastel hatchlings, any blushing along the back is a light yellow color. While your baby doesnt have very much blushing along the back, where there is blushing it is almost white. Thats another sign of a super.

i probably don't have the necessary breeding experience to offer any real insight, but is it possible that this is an instance of groupthink? since it's highly unlikely that you made a mistake in record-keeping AND that a first-time breeder laid a small clutch sired by three different males, isn't the simplest explanation the best here? couldn't the cinnamon have sired both a normal cinny and a pastel cinny? they're both co-dominant mutations and you seem to have a lot of luck with the odds.

if that's the case, it's certainly an exceptional pastel cinnamon, but it really doesn't look much like a super pastel. also, the patterns on the unknown and the cinnamon are so similar that it's hard to imagine they weren't sired by the same male. you might have something 'extra' floating around in the cinnamon or you might have a dinker (because he also looks a hell of a lot like a firefly), but isn't it most likely that you have a really bright pastel cinnamon?

in any case, they are all outstanding.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wwmjkd

i probably don't have the necessary breeding experience to offer any real insight, but is it possible that this is an instance of groupthink? since it's highly unlikely that you made a mistake in record-keeping AND that a first-time breeder laid a small clutch sired by three different males, isn't the simplest explanation the best here? couldn't the cinnamon have sired both a normal cinny and a pastel cinny? they're both co-dominant mutations and you seem to have a lot of luck with the odds.

if that's the case, it's certainly an exceptional pastel cinnamon, but it really doesn't look much like a super pastel. also, the patterns on the unknown and the cinnamon are so similar that it's hard to imagine they weren't sired by the same male. you might have something 'extra' floating around in the cinnamon or you might have a dinker (because he also looks a hell of a lot like a firefly), but isn't it most likely that you have a really bright pastel cinnamon?

in any case, they are all outstanding.

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While you have a few good points, the major flaw is that is NOT a pewter. Honestly, its more likely that its a normal pastel then a pewter. Pewters have a completely different look to them and I would bet a decent amount of money there isnt any cinny in that snake.

As to it being highly unlikely there was a fluke in her record keeping, its not terribly uncommon. Mistakes happen and there are usually multiple clutches I read about each year (including a few this year already) where that exact thing happens.

Finally, how does it not look like a super? It has the right color and the right blushing, but not a ton of it. Supers have a wide range of blushing, just like pastels. You see some with a ton of blushing, and some with little to none.

Bottom line, I would say that you most likely have a super pastel, slight possibility of having a VERY nice regular pastel and an almost non existent chance at a pewter.

Mike, there's doesn't look to be any cinnamon in that baby. Looks like a super pastel to me, though he lacks the typical dorsal blushing. I suppose there is a remote possibility this little guy could have been the product of parthenogenesis since the dam has never been paired with a pastel male.