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Brock Lesnar's MMA Future in Doubt
Quote:
Originally Scheduled for UFC 131, Brock Lesnar's MMA Future in Doubt
by Brent Brookhouse on Jun 7, 2011 1:00 PM EDT in UFC Analysis
Nate Wilcox is doing a little editorializing over at SB Nation from time to time these days. And now, on a week that was originally supposed to be the build-up to a Brock Lesnar fight with Junior dos Santos, he is looking at the unfortunate way that we may have seen Brock's UFC career come to a close. After exploding into MMA and looking like some sort of unstoppable force (even when submitted by Mir in his first UFC bout) a bout with diverticulitis derailed the freight train.
Nate talks about the post-illness fights of Lesnar:
"Sadly, diverticulitis brought Lesnar down only a couple of months after his UFC 100 triumph. Lesnar's illness serves as a painful reminder that fame based on physical prowess is a very fragile thing. He fought back from the initial diagnosis and managed to avoid surgery by changing his diet, but some say he was never the same.
While no living man can take a punch from the fearsome Shane Carwin without suffering serious consequences, many fans were shocked and worse, amused, by Lesnar's reaction at UFC 116. When Carwin touched him, Lesnar cringed and cowered. He didn't stay in the pocket and trade punches, he curled up into the fetal position against the cage. He did show incredible heart and resilience in surviving Carwin's assault and coming back to submit him in the second round, but many could not forget the first.
In his second post-illness fight, a title defense against Cain Velasquez at UFC 121, Lesnar charged Velasquez as recklessly as he had charged Mir in their first fight at UFC 81. Unfortunately for Lesnar, Velasquez was able to ride out the storm and once the tide turned it was anything but pretty.
Lesnar's loss to Velasquez wasn't just crushing, it was sad. The once feared monster of MMA tumbled and skittered across the cage like a clumsy drunk. While he gamely tried to trade blows with Velasquez, it was embarrassingly obvious that his heart wasn't in the battle and the referee stoppage couldn't come soon enough."
We've seen the TUF ratings not receive a boost from Lesnar's involvement and then the news that his diverticulitis has returned (or flared up again) and he has had a foot of his intestine removed. It's possible that the last memory we have of Lesnar is the domination at the hands of Cain Velasquez, and it's hard not to find that a little sad.
If you look at the size of Lesner now compared to before he had the diverticulitis problem you can even see a huge difference. I give him much respect for trying as hard as he has and it is sad to see someone with his genetic potential possibly end like this...
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I'm a firm believer in skill and experience. Neither of which Brock Lesnar has very much of in terms of being an MMA fighter. He's a great wrestler and he swings lunch boxes at you, but he won 99% of his fights just because of sheer size... Not skill or experience... Size. To be very honest I'm very surprised his career in the UFC lasted as long as it has. It's very sad to see anyone suffer from an illness, especially one that keeps them from doing their job. But to be honest, I think with or without his illness his career wasn't going to be much longer. There are WAY to many good fighters for him to have stayed on top or even in the title picture for very much longer with how little experience and skill he really had. Hate to sound cliche, but size isn't everything, especially in MMA (Royce Gracie... enough said). Brock also won fights because people feared him, but once people lose that fear you lose your leverage over them, and your cofidence also takes a hit. It's WAY more to this than just an illness, or at least that's how I feel about it.
Edit:
I DO think that Brock Lesnar has ton's of potential... and his illness may keep him from showing his potential... and that I will agree is very sad!
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I'd have to agree with Passions. Brock has come to represent everything that I'm starting to hate about MMA. And thats using either your brute strength or your strong wrestling background to pin an opponent for 20 minutes and win by decision.
Though I must admit, I was impressed by Brocks fight against Carwin. I thought I was going to see the same thing, but no he impressed everyone with an actual submission finish. So I can see he's trying, and maybe he could offer something to the sport. Until then, I hope he makes a speedy recovery.
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Only true way to see Brock's potential - Fedor Emelianenko. But then again I just love seeing Brock get tossed around the octagon. As you can tell I'm not a fan of him and never really was. Just like the above posters have said sheer size shouldn't all you have going for you. Brock had some skill but with the fighters he would of have faced he wouldn't of lasted long. Way to many amazing fighters who can overcome sheer size difference and destroy people like that.
On a side note, I really want to see Fedor destroy some more people from the crap-tastic UFC. Sorry to who all are truly die hard fans of UFC. I just find that most of the fights are boring as all hell. I wish Pride was still around. Way better rules than UFC has.
Now don't take my last paragraph to heart because there are some amazing fights/fighters that are in UFC and that put on a damn good fight but most are boring, I.E. the heavyweights. Yes, I do understand that fighters have to "weigh" each other out first before they go all crazy and try to knock the other person around. But too much sizing each other up isn't really fun when I pay a butt load to watch the main event be boring.
Just my 2 cents.
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Re: Brock Lesnar's MMA Future in Doubt
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Originally Posted by Keyboard Warrior
I'd have to agree with Passions. Brock has come to represent everything that I'm starting to hate about MMA. And thats using either your brute strength or your strong wrestling background to pin an opponent for 20 minutes and win by decision.
Though I must admit, I was impressed by Brocks fight against Carwin. I thought I was going to see the same thing, but no he impressed everyone with an actual submission finish. So I can see he's trying, and maybe he could offer something to the sport. Until then, I hope he makes a speedy recovery.
Brock Lesnar by no means is small. He's huge and strong (or at least he WAS before his health issues), even for a heavyweight.
HOWEVER, if what you hate is a lack of action, sitting on someone, and winning by a decision, I can not see how Brock Lesnar represents that at all.
In his seven fights, he has only won a single fight by decision (against Heath Herring). He has only seen a 3rd round once, again in that decision. Despite being a decision win by a large, strong wrestler, that particular fight was the best display of Brock's striking.
It's one thing to complain about sitting on someone and doing no damage, but still coming out with a win.
It's another thing completely to complain about someone who can, even though they fight at the same weight class, put you on your back, smother you, and finish a fight with strikes.
A win by TKO/KO is a definitive win and proof of superior fighting ability, at least at that moment in time.
My point is, Brock Lesnar doesn't represent the things you don't like about MMA, except that wrestling knowledge has become very important for win. Frankie Edgar does.
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I wanted to respond quick to Templarknight:
Do you want MMA to be a sport, or do you want it to be entertainment?
I want it to be a sport, or at least emphasized as such. It's not about the entertainment value, it's not about us, it's about the individual athletes and who can win given a certain set of rules.
I agree that there is more than enough room for rule changes. I don't like the point system (though it's hard to find a better one), and my biggest complaint is about the rounds.. 15 total minutes is too short in many instances, and I'd love to see how the sport would be different without any sit-down breaks.
However, I don't feel like I am "entitled" to entertainment. This isn't human cockfighting, as it used to be referred to by the opponents of MMA. I want to see two athletes trying to figure out a way to win against one another with a given set of rules, with the ONLY thing that matters to them is getting a win.
The key to having your cake (sport) and eating it too (entertainment) is the rule set, which you touched on.
My ideal ruleset would be no time limit (a bout ends only by tapout, ref stoppage (TKO/KO), or doctor stoppage). No sit-down breaks, but the ref can temporarily pause the bout for doctor inspection. All the fouls in place in the UFC would remain, except removing the ban on 12-6 elbow strikes.
As for your Fedor comments.. see my post on the Fedor vs. Henderson thread for my thoughts :P He'd get taken apart by any of the top 5 heavyweights in the UFC.
Of course now I'm helping drive the thread off topic. I hope Brock gets back to good health, regardless if he returns to the sport. He will never reach the potential he would have had without diverticulitis screwing things up, which is truly sad.
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Did you see his fight against Mir? Both of them. He sat on him and pummeled him for a few rounds. It was embarrassing on both their parts.
I could go into their being entertainment value in a sport, and when a sport lacks that entertainment value, its no longer fun to watch or participate in. A sport is multi-faceted that way. Theres the athletic part, theres the strategy part, and then theres the entertainment part. Bottom line, it's a fight, not a judo or wrestling match, where they hold each other down for the longest to see who wins. Back in the day it was no holds barred. No rounds, no time limits. That simply would not fly. It has evolved to have rules, rightfully so, but those rules have taken over and are starting to ruin MMA and turn it into a competition of who isn't the better fighter, but who is the best at man humping for 25 minutes. I'll watch wrestling or Judo if I want that. This is Mixed Martial Arts, and I want to see a fight.
btw i'm not trying to sound like a jerk or start a fight or anything. I'm just politely disagreeing.
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While the lay and pray strategy is VERY boring to watch the ref has the ability to stand them up if he wants and there is no rules aganist someone doing it. It might be boring for us to watch but it is usually smart for the person doing it in a sense as that is most likely the only chance they have at winning. While there is entertainment value in wathching MMA an MMA match is not the same as a WWF match. The main goal of the fight is not entertainment but to win. I REALLY hate to watch boring fights as much as the next person but sometimes thats the way it goes down. While the lay and prey person might lose in a slug fest MMA is not just boxing, while the lay and pray dude might lose in a NAGA, jiu jitsu or a judo etc competition MMA is not just any of them either and so on. That's what I love about MMA. So many possible ways to win!! You are not limited to just your boxing, grappling etc skills.
Let's not get it wrong here because I don't care for the lay and pray tactic either and not stikcing up for the people who do it but I am pointing out it is not illegal for a person to do and like I said it is usually the last or possibly the only tactic/strategy a person has at winning said fight and the ref can choose to stand them up at any time he wants to stop the person from doing it. A big job of an MMA fighter going into a fight with that kind of person is to prepare for that and try to not let that happen, just like he would prepare if he was going into a fight with a better grappler, boxer etc....
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Re: Brock Lesnar's MMA Future in Doubt
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keyboard Warrior
Did you see his fight against Mir? Both of them. He sat on him and pummeled him for a few rounds. It was embarrassing on both their parts.
The bolded part is the key, and IMO far from embarassing. Ground work, wrestling in particular, is HIGHLY technical. It just doesn't always mean you are winning a fight and doing damage, and I get annoyed when someone scores points without doing damage at all.
In the case of Lesnar vs Mir, there was some very technical groundwork AND damage done. There is no way that you can take a look at Frank Mir's face after that fight and say that he didn't take a beating. Just because they weren't standing up when it happened does not mean that Brock Lesnar did not excel at limited-rules fighting that day.
http://camelclutchblog.com/brock-les...ce-at-ufc-100/
If we were to see rounds eliminated from MMA, here's what would happen:
We would see MORE "doing nothing but sitting on someone". A very powerful tactic in one-on-one fights is to wear a guy out, take an hour to destroy his cardio. After you've made him too tired to fight back (from sitting on him for a half hour), THEN you go in for the finish. I guarantee you that it would be very boring to watch, but "more" realistic.
If you want to see two guys flinging and swinging, go watch kickboxing, that's what its designed for. I frankly don't find any of the "fight sports" that requires that much ref intervention to be fun at all.
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Re: Brock Lesnar's MMA Future in Doubt
Quote:
Originally Posted by mainbutter
I wanted to respond quick to Templarknight:
Do you want MMA to be a sport, or do you want it to be entertainment?
I want it to be a sport, or at least emphasized as such. It's not about the entertainment value, it's not about us, it's about the individual athletes and who can win given a certain set of rules.
I agree that there is more than enough room for rule changes. I don't like the point system (though it's hard to find a better one), and my biggest complaint is about the rounds.. 15 total minutes is too short in many instances, and I'd love to see how the sport would be different without any sit-down breaks.
However, I don't feel like I am "entitled" to entertainment. This isn't human cockfighting, as it used to be referred to by the opponents of MMA. I want to see two athletes trying to figure out a way to win against one another with a given set of rules, with the ONLY thing that matters to them is getting a win.
The key to having your cake (sport) and eating it too (entertainment) is the rule set, which you touched on.
My ideal ruleset would be no time limit (a bout ends only by tapout, ref stoppage (TKO/KO), or doctor stoppage). No sit-down breaks, but the ref can temporarily pause the bout for doctor inspection. All the fouls in place in the UFC would remain, except removing the ban on 12-6 elbow strikes.
As for your Fedor comments.. see my post on the Fedor vs. Henderson thread for my thoughts :P He'd get taken apart by any of the top 5 heavyweights in the UFC.
Of course now I'm helping drive the thread off topic. I hope Brock gets back to good health, regardless if he returns to the sport. He will never reach the potential he would have had without diverticulitis screwing things up, which is truly sad.
Sports are supposed to be entertaining. I'm a die hard LSU fan and I watch college football not only because I love the sport, but because it's EXCITING! MMA works the same way.
I know this isn't supposed to be human cockfighting, but that's what people like Brock Lesnar bring to the table. He wasn't a professional boxer, jui jitsu world champion, or anything like that. He was about as fake an athlete as you can get... Professional wrestling. I'm not saying professional wrestlers are not in shape, but wrestling is staged and takes almost no skill. Youtube can prove that to be true. However, Brock did wrestle in college and was great, but wrestling isn't MMA. It's a very small portion of MMA, mainly just using techniques like good hips, etc. It doens't mean you are gonna be a great fighter. But Brock with his size and veracious attitude is what made him good. Now's he lost that, and in my personal opinion needs some serious training before he steps back into the ring. Because he's lost his fear factor, so something else is gonna have to help him win fights.
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