photo I.D. guarantee

ok you sell someone a hatchling with a photo I.D. guarantee. this person spends 2 to 3 years getting this female up to breeding size, then another year breeding it. and the snake doesn't prove out after a few years of breeding.

what is your guarantee on making your mistake right?

this is just a question and didn't happen to me, but I feel this is one of the big things that separates the breeders!

I would say that the photo guarantee would only be used if you resold a snake. (or if they got mixed-up) a 100% het is 100%.

See, the problem is, dishonesty and mistaken identities can run both ways--I can easily imagine offering to switch the unproven snake for a different 100% het, only to have some completely different snake returned to me in the exchange.

I'd only offer to switch the snake for a different het of equal value if I the person trying to return it sent me pictures of the unproven het and the pictures matched those of the snake I'd sent. But that would require me as the breeder to take pictures of all my hets before sending them out...

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Originally Posted by LotsaBalls

I would say that the photo guarantee would only be used if you resold a snake. (or if they got mixed-up) a 100% het is 100%.

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I believe the point of the original question was "What happens when a 100% het doesn't prove out?" Because 100% is not always 100%. Females can retain sperm from previous breedings...eggs can get mixed up and mislabeled...newly hatched babies can get mixed up....etc etc.

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Originally Posted by don15681

ok you sell someone a hatchling with a photo I.D. guarantee. this person spends 2 to 3 years getting this female up to breeding size, then another year breeding it. and the snake doesn't prove out after a few years of breeding.

what is your guarantee on making your mistake right?

this is just a question and didn't happen to me, but I feel this is one of the big things that separates the breeders!

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It's a good question. One we've seen a fair amount of lately on the BOI, unfortunately. :(

I think the back-up of the guarantee would have to be crafted differently for each breeder, because different circumstances make it possible or impossible for individuals to offer specific compensations. Small breeders in particular may not be able to realistically offer any real compensation for a valuable het if they don't have any visual babies or the financial means to pay for one.

I believe it should be inherent in ANY het purchase that there IS some gamble involved...even in a 100% het from a trusted breeder. There's always that slight risk that something went wrong and the snake isn't really a het...and always that slight chance that your odds simply don't play out. And if you're breeding het-to-het...how do you know which one isn't really the het? Risky business....and I DON'T believe the original breeder should be responsible for all the years spent raising it up or for the "potential lost clutches".

I DO believe that a good businessman should have SOME sort of compensation available for that rare customer who's 100% het doesn't prove out. Again...what that compensation might be would depend on the individual abilities of each breeder. And what is truly fair will also depend on the unique circumstances of each transaction.

What seems ideal to me might be full compensation of the $$'s paid for the original 100% het and one or two visual babies of that morph (or equal value morph if none are available). And the non-proven het should be returned to the breeder.

Is that an absolute compensation for the years put into proving the het? Maybe not. But I don't believe you'll find a single breeder (even the big ones) capable of or willing to offer up thousands of extra dollars in "lost clutches" that may or may not have ever been hatched to begin with. BREEDING HETS IS A RISK NO MATTER WHO YOU BOUGHT THEM FROM.

What if someone bought a $10,000 het 12 years ago that never proved out and would be worth about $200 in today's market? I couldn't begin to say, because there would be a myriad of details on both sides of that transaction that would need to be considered and I know those of us watching from the sidelines will NEVER know all those details. I do believe a case like that should be worked out by an impartial mediator and not bickered pointlessly about in a public venue.

a lot of good points been made already, which is why I posted this.

but one thing still bothers me. on 100% hets, not 50, 66 or 67 % but 100% hets from someone that's a trusted breeder. If it doesn't prove out in a reasonable amount of time and the sign photo of the snake is good. what should be done?

to me 100% means this is what it is, no buts. het means heterozygous
put the 2 to gather and this is what you bought and if it didn't prove out in a reasonable amount of time. should you just get your money back? It's better than nothing, right?

so because it's a 100% het some of the blame should go on the buyer? as buyer beware?

I go to a lot of shows and from time to time you will see a photo I.D. and with the breeders signature on it. and that's pretty much it. no writing on what will happen if it's not what the photo said it is. and this is accepted.

I just thought that this would be a good topic to discuss.

to me, if someone bought something from me that wasn't what I claimed it to be, my first objective is to make it right with the buyer. even if it cost me more than what it was worth. it was my mistake, the only way it will be a mistake by the buyer is that he got it from me and nothing was done about it. at this point it's not about a snake any more, but about your reputation.

I would say that unless you bought a 100% het pair from the same breeder and you have 3 clutches with no visual morph then you should get a refund. Breeder should not be be responsible if you get your male and female from two different breeders because you don't know which animal is the problem. I don't think the breeder is responsible for the feeding, caring or future clutches, that is the gamble you take with hets. If you go the cheaper route(hets) then you are taking a chance! If you want a 100% guarantee then buy visuals! You pay for what you get!

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Originally Posted by don15681

so because it's a 100% het some of the blame should go on the buyer? as buyer beware?

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I don't think that's what I was saying. I'm just pointing out that the problem is a lot more complicated than a buyer asking for a spider and being sent a normal.

I DO think it is in the best interest of a GOOD business to have a contingency in place and written into their TOS about how they would try to make an unproven het right with their customer. What that contingency is may vary somewhat between different breeding businesses.

IF you choose to buy a het from a small-time hobby breeder who barely makes ends meet each month....then you are taking on some additional risk because no matter how much integrity that person has, they may simply not have the ability to "make it right" five years down the road. If you buy a het from someone like Bailey & Bailey, then your risk may be considerably less because even if he doesn't have the money to reimburse (he probably would) he would at least have some animals to compensate with.

But no matter who you buy from...you're still going to be out the years put into the project and no one is going to reimburse for that. That's what I was trying to say.

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Originally Posted by don15681

but one thing still bothers me. on 100% hets, not 50, 66 or 67 % but 100% hets from someone that's a trusted breeder. If it doesn't prove out in a reasonable amount of time and the sign photo of the snake is good. what should be done?

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One other thing to think about is what exactly constitutes a 'reasonable amount of time'? I've heard multiple stories of het to het breedings that took three or more clutches before finally proving out. Sure, statistics say that one out of four eggs from a het to het breeding should give you a visual, but anyone who has actually bred more than a few clutches knows that it doesn't always work out that way.
Heck, I've only been breeding for a few years and I've hit some pretty bad odds in that short amount of time.

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Originally Posted by JLC

I don't think that's what I was saying. I'm just pointing out that the problem is a lot more complicated than a buyer asking for a spider and being sent a normal.

I DO think it is in the best interest of a GOOD business to have a contingency in place and written into their TOS about how they would try to make an unproven het right with their customer. What that contingency is may vary somewhat between different breeding businesses.

IF you choose to buy a het from a small-time hobby breeder who barely makes ends meet each month....then you are taking on some additional risk because no matter how much integrity that person has, they may simply not have the ability to "make it right" five years down the road. If you buy a het from someone like Bailey & Bailey, then your risk may be considerably less because even if he doesn't have the money to reimburse (he probably would) he would at least have some animals to compensate with.

But no matter who you buy from...you're still going to be out the years put into the project and no one is going to reimburse for that. That's what I was trying to say.

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your first post had a lot of good points to it as well as this one. my post isn't as much as who's right or wrong, but to make some of the members aware of this photo I.D. thing. the "buyer beware", I do feel that some of it falls back on the buyer, mostly with who you buy from. maybe this is why I will only buy hets from certain breeders and they are the local breeders that I know. to me it takes a lot of effort to get a female to breeding size, plus your breeding project is now set back on someone elses mistake. and if the answer is O while you shouldn't of bought a 100% het, you know that it was a risk. then this is the kind of breeder that I would not want to do business with. to me 100% means that this is what it is period, no buts.

If I sell you a photo guaranteed het produced by myself, or if Im reselling any of my hets such as the ones I have from Justin Kobylka, then that het is guaranteed till the day I die to be 100% het. And if you're not producing visuals then you have either some terrible odds, or your other het is fake, get a visual.