Snake Inbreeding?

I have read a few things on this subject, but have yet to get a solid "Yes" or "No" answer. What do you think BP.net? Can inbreeding snakes cause adverse issues like "wobbling"? Have you ever personally produced a snake from inbreeding to prove genetics and come out with a snake that was obviously a little slower(mentally) than the rest?

I ask because I have a spider ball that doesn't wobble at all. But he does have some weird movements. Almost like he can't figure out which way is up or down sometimes. He does just fine though, barely ever refuses a meal and when he does it's usually because he's in breeder mode. He's very docile, easy to handle, just really makes some weird movements when he's roaming around. Keep in mind, these movements aren't abrupt or anything like that, they are slow and calculated, just not sure about it.

Anyway, thought I might try to spark a conversation I've been curious about for years.

You're never going to be able to stop inbreeding, because greed is a very strong influence, but I will never do it. Just look at the one-eyed albino boas out there. Disgusting.

Chris

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I ask because I have a spider ball that doesn't wobble at all

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. That's contradicting don't you think ;)

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But he does have some weird movements. Almost like he can't figure out which way is up or down sometimes.

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This is what is referred to as wobble or spinning, they all do to a certain degree, some are train wrecks and it some it is hardly noticeable to the point where if you do not know what wobble is you will probably say that your Spider does not wobble.

And no inbreeding does not cause this, Spiders are one of the most outbred morph.

Some people (the inbreeding detractors) often forget that it it wasn't for inbreeding/line breeding those great morph they have in their collection would have never been proved out. (kind of hypocritical :rolleyes:)

Cold blooded creatures are very different from mammals.

Should you bring new blood in any time you have the opportunity absolutely however line breeding is not the great evil some make it sound to be either.

More about inbreeding and Wobbling

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...light=wobbling

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...light=wobbling

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...light=spinning

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...pider+spinning

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...ght=inbreeding

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...ght=inbreeding

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Originally Posted by sirhiss06

I ask because I have a spider ball that doesn't wobble at all. But he does have some weird movements. Almost like he can't figure out which way is up or down sometimes. He does just fine though, barely ever refuses a meal and when he does it's usually because he's in breeder mode. He's very docile, easy to handle, just really makes some weird movements when he's roaming around. Keep in mind, these movements aren't abrupt or anything like that, they are slow and calculated, just not sure about it.

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As Deborah already stated - you've just described the spider wobble/spin. Weird movements, looking like they can't figure out up or down. That's classic spider wobble behavior. :)

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Originally Posted by Deborah

. That's contradicting don't you think ;)

This is what is referred to as wobble or spinning, they all do to a certain degree, some are train wrecks and it some it is hardly noticeable to the point where if you do not know what wobble is you will probably say that your Spider does not wobble.

And no inbreeding does not cause this, Spiders are one of the most outbred morph.

Some people (the inbreeding detractors) often forget that it it wasn't for inbreeding/line breeding those great morph they have in their collection would have never been proved out. (kind of hypocritical :rolleyes:)

Cold blooded creatures are very different from mammals.

Should you bring new blood in any time you have the opportunity absolutely however line breeding is not the great evil some make it sound to be either.

More about inbreeding and Wobbling

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...light=wobbling

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...light=wobbling

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...light=spinning

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...pider+spinning

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...ght=inbreeding

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...ght=inbreeding

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I am not totally against line-breeding. I don't find it disgusting. I do not think of it as an evil. I understand that it is or was necessary to produce a lot of morphs in Herpetoculture. It is also true for many animals. Cold blooded animals are no different than warm blooded ones. Genes work exactly the same in both. It should be done only limited. It should not be common practice nor should it be suggested to others to do as common practice. If you cant afford to do it right, either time wise or money wise, then you should not be breeding. Breeders should be responsible and always out source the blood lines when possible.

I think you should look at real information about genetics, biochemistry and molecular biology from other more reliable sources (such as geneticists) other than from what you will find on this site(or any other breeder related sites) that is posted from other breeders. Research reptile inbreeding or line breeding.

My 2 cents for what its worth.

Sorry for the misunderstanding. I thought a "wobble" was exactly that. I thought it was wobbling of the head of the snake. So noticeable that you would in fact say the snake had a "wobble". I would describe my snakes movements as more of a "spin". I didn't know that the both were considered the same thing.

Does this subside by introducing new bloodlines? Or is it just a typical trait that 99% of spiders have, just to a level of severity?

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Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

I am not totally against line-breeding. I don't find it disgusting. I do not think of it as an evil. I understand that it is or was necessary to produce a lot of morphs in Herpetoculture. It is also true for many animals. Cold blooded animals are no different than warm blooded ones. Genes work exactly the same in both. It should be done only limited. It should not be common practice nor should it be suggested to others to do as common practice. If you cant afford to do it right, either time wise or money wise, then you should not be breeding. Breeders should be responsible and always out source the blood lines when possible.

I think you should look at real information about genetics, biochemistry and molecular biology from other more reliable sources (such as geneticists) other than from what you will find on this site(or any other breeder related sites) that is posted from other breeders. Research reptile inbreeding or line breeding.

My 2 cents for what its worth.

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I'm with you. Line breeding is the only way to prove a line, so I'm definitely not against it.

I will have to do more in depth research I suppose. I wouldn't really know where to start looking, but the internet is full of information, so I'm sure I can find something, somewhere. Thanks for the insight.

I think inbreeding can potentially be a big problem in recessive morphs, but not so much with dominant genes like the spider. People outcross spiders to normals all the time, and the resulting spider babies still wobble.

You could probably make it worse by breeding spiders to spiders. But even without inbreeding the wobble seems somehow tied to the gene, and is therefore simply a built-in feature of the morph.

http://heathersherpsblog.blogspot.co...nbreeding.html

My feelings on the subject

this is from Ralph Davis.

I have noticed many problems with the "Supers" from the year that they were first produced until now ( 05 ).........all that have been produced and that I have seen have face deformities....either elongated snouts.........thin cheeks and heads........a "turned up" snout.........kinks or twists..........I think to solve the problem with the Supers.........breeders need to NOT line breed to make the Supers...........bloodlines need to be mixed..


This is from Adam Wysocki - 8 Ball Pythons

The real “spin” on spiders.
Tuesday, February 13th, 2007
When I purchased my first spider many years ago, I had heard and was told about “spinning” in spider ball pythons. The way it was described, I understood “spinning” to be a condition where the animal continually loops their head and neck in a “corkscrew” motion and barely has the ability to sit still. I looked over my spider and there was no “cork screwing” so in my mind, he wasn’t a “spinner”.

Over the years that followed as I raised my spider, I heard a lot of big breeders making statements like “all spiders spin” or “all spiders are tweaked” and I really got pissed off. How could they be saying stuff like that? All they were doing was hurting any chance I ever had at selling spiders. Surely I would produce spiders that didn’t spin and if they were telling people that every single one was “tweaked”, I’d be cooked!

Then, I started producing my own spiders. Within my first couple of clutches I noticed a couple that “weren’t right”, but no big deal, I just wouldn’t sell those. Then I started looking harder. I noticed different degrees of odd behavior in all of the spiders that I produced. Some shook their head from side to side, some spun like tops, and others did the corkscrew thing as they were cruising their cage at night, still others were less noticeable but it was there. The less noticeable ones didn’t wobble or corkscrew, but they held their head at an angle when you looked at them. Kind of like the way a dog looks when it hears something it doesn’t understand. So then I started looking at spiders. Spiders in my friends collections, spiders at shows, spiders in pictures posted on the internet. All of them do it do some degree, all of them.

I’ve read the internet rumors that it has something to do with the amount of white, or the head pattern, or the connecting or non-connecting neck stripe on the animals neck … bologna! It doesn’t matter, they all do it. I’ve also heard that spider siblings do it. After producing tons of spider clutches, I don’t find that to be an accurate statement. I do believe that breeders have seen “spinning” in spider siblings, but I don’t think that it is any more common in the normal looking siblings of spiders than it is in any other normal looking ball python. Over the years (and before I ever heard of spinning in spiders) I have produced a heterozygous albino and a normal looking pastel sibling that spin the exact same way that spiders do. I feel that it is a condition that can effect all ball pythons but for whatever reason is common in spiders. I’ve also heard that the reason spiders spin is because they were so inbred early on in the project … ridiculous. The recessive mutations out there have been inbred/line bred by an order of magnitude more than spiders. The notion that a co-dominant/dominant mutation can be inbred more than a recessive is an ill informed one.

I finally understood what the big breeders were saying. It’s not always as in your face as people expect it to be, but it’s there in each and every spider. You just have to know what to look for. Now I know a lot of people are going to read this and say “no, not my spider”. I’m telling you, your spider does it too. You just have to know what to look for. I’m not sure what the answer is, but I know one thing for sure … spin or not, I LOVE SPIDERS! I love their natural variation, I love the combos that they make, I love everything about them. I will always breed and produce spiders. I will do my best to keep my customers informed about them as much as I am and leave the decision to them. If I have to end up keeping every spider and spider I produce … well, that’s fine with me!