I need help with squares....

[I<3Dreamsicles]

Hey guys, I need a little help understanding how some punnet squares work.. so example

say ou have bumblebee x bumblebee.

Isnt it

Pn Sn
Pn PPnn PSnn
Sn SPnn SSnn

i dont understand what this would give you. Since PP would be super pastel, SS would be homozygous spider, and SP would be Bumblebee, and PS is the same thing. But wtf is the nn there for. nn would be normal... or would the offspring be like half "het" for normal. Im guessing that the capital ones would be like dominant? So the n's dont really mean anything??? So you could just do it with P and S???

Im sort of lost...

[Danounet]

Your square is kinda confusing. But there are exceptions. Like in "super spider" which hasnt been proven. So Ss or SS would be the same. I dont think Nn or nn matters.

http://www.ballboutique.com/Genetics...Bumble_Bee.htm

Some things are just there to fill in the spots. Just in case it was something else. Like another morph.

[Fallout32]

NERD has some genetics articles on their site that will probably help you out. This is the intro article and at the bottom it has links to the advanced genetics.

[Blue Apple Herps]

The "n's" are confusing and not helping. Lets try it a little differently.

P = wild type (wt) pastel gene - snake will look normal
p = mutant pastel gene - snake will be a pastel

So PP = normal snake. Pp = pastel. pp = super pastel

Same thing with spider:

S = wt
s = spider

So SS = normal. Ss = spider. ss = homozygous spider (not sure if its been proven if these exist or if they're lethal?)

So a bumble bee would be: PpSs. From there you can plug it into your punett square:

.......PS.....pS.....Ps......ps
PS PPSS PpSS PPSs PpSs
pS PpSS ppSS PpSs ppSs
Ps PPSs PpSs PPss Ppss
ps PpSs ppSs Ppss ppss

So you can go through and work out the phenotypes on your own. But labeling the pastel and spider genes with "n" is confusing, because how to you delineate between whether the '"n" is referring to the pastel or spider gene? Generally most use a capital letter for the wt allele, and a lower case for the mutant allele. It makes working them out easier doing it that way.

Hope this helps.

[I<3Dreamsicles]

The "n's" are confusing and not helping. Lets try it a little differently.

P = wild type (wt) pastel gene - snake will look normal
p = mutant pastel gene - snake will be a pastel

So PP = normal snake. Pp = pastel. pp = super pastel

Same thing with spider:

S = wt
s = spider

So SS = normal. Ss = spider. ss = homozygous spider (not sure if its been proven if these exist or if they're lethal?)

So a bumble bee would be: PpSs. From there you can plug it into your punett square:

.......PS.....pS.....Ps......ps
PS PPSS PpSS PPSs PpSs
pS PpSS ppSS PpSs ppSs
Ps PPSs PpSs PPss Ppss
ps PpSs ppSs Ppss ppss

So you can go through and work out the phenotypes on your own. But labeling the pastel and spider genes with "n" is confusing, because how to you delineate between whether the '"n" is referring to the pastel or spider gene? Generally most use a capital letter for the wt allele, and a lower case for the mutant allele. It makes working them out easier doing it that way.

Hope this helps.

i was just using it so P=Pastel n= normal. instead of doing it P for normal and p for pastel. instead of a captial of a P for normal i just used an N because ... why not. thats what it stands for...

if it was a super spider it would just be SS so its spider and spider genes. Sn would be Spider and Normal. (plain spider)

and you use PS for completely normal? I dont see why you wouldnt just use N's that way you dont have to deal with the same letter that your shortening the morph to..

with your square, what would something like ppSs or Ppss be, since arent the lower cases the ones that show up on the snake. super pastel with a spider gene that would be PP (two pastel genes) then S... PPS. a super pastel with a spider het? i think im right about the het there... but then again i could be wrong.

[GenePirate]

i was just using it so P=Pastel n= normal. instead of doing it P for normal and p for pastel. instead of a captial of a P for normal i just used an N because ... why not. thats what it stands for...

if it was a super spider it would just be SS so its spider and spider genes. Sn would be Spider and Normal. (plain spider)

and you use PS for completely normal? I dont see why you wouldnt just use N's that way you dont have to deal with the same letter that your shortening the morph to..

with your square, what would something like ppSs or Ppss be, since arent the lower cases the ones that show up on the snake. super pastel with a spider gene that would be PP (two pastel genes) then S... PPS. a super pastel with a spider het? i think im right about the het there... but then again i could be wrong.

Actually, it might be confusing at first, but blueapplepaste is doing the square the way it normally is done. That’s not to say that using “n” wouldn’t work. I understand why it seems easier. If the normal allele that pairs with a mutant pastel allele is normal, why not just use “n?” It’s not standard, but it can be done if it doesn’t confuse you. We would usually use P for normal allele opposite a pastel (p) mutant allele because that’s just the standard punnett method.

What you need to remember is that each bee has a possibility of throwing (we’ll use n) sp, sn, pn, or nn. That gives you a possibility of 16 outcomes in a 4 x 4 square. At this point I would not bank on anything that results in ss. In blueapplepaste’s example, a ppsS would, as you said, be a super pastel het spider. Since spider is considered in the herp world as dominant, this means ppsS is going to be a killer bee.

[I<3Dreamsicles]

Actually, it might be confusing at first, but blueapplepaste is doing the square the way it normally is done. That’s not to say that using “n” wouldn’t work. I understand why it seems easier. If the normal allele that pairs with a mutant pastel allele is normal, why not just use “n?” It’s not standard, but it can be done if it doesn’t confuse you. We would usually use P for normal allele opposite a pastel (p) mutant allele because that’s just the standard punnett method.

What you need to remember is that each bee has a possibility of throwing (we’ll use n) sp, sn, pn, or nn. That gives you a possibility of 16 outcomes in a 4 x 4 square. At this point I would not bank on anything that results in ss. In blueapplepaste’s example, a ppsS would, as you said, be a super pastel het spider. Since spider is considered in the herp world as dominant, this means ppsS is going to be a killer bee.

oooo.
yeah i can see why you would use a P cause then you can tell that the P came from a pastel i guess....


i have a bit of trouble with the 4x4's lol. oooook and pastel is a co-dominant trait... i sort of get this stuff lol.

im sure im making it alot more complicated then it really is.

like for this http://www.newenglandreptile.com/gen...recessive.html i still dont understand what stuff like CCGg is. It looks like a ghost. and has .... "caramel glow", but you say that the capital ones are just "normal" .... idk...

that stuff

[GenePirate]

oooo.


like for this http://www.newenglandreptile.com/gen...recessive.html i still dont understand what stuff like CCGg is. It looks like a ghost. and has .... "caramel glow", but you say that the capital ones are just "normal" .... idk...

that stuff

Yeah, that's a good example. On NERD's page, look about halfway down, and you'll see the 4 x 4 Punnett square. Below that is the key. They've got the normal alleles in green and the mutant alleles in yellow and orange. Take a look through that, CCGg is listed as het ghost. That means two normal genes from the caramel locus, one normal from the ghost locus, and one mutant ghost gene from the ghost locus. It's a good example of a double het recessive pairing.

[Blue Apple Herps]

i was just using it so P=Pastel n= normal. instead of doing it P for normal and p for pastel. instead of a captial of a P for normal i just used an N because ... why not. thats what it stands for...

if it was a super spider it would just be SS so its spider and spider genes. Sn would be Spider and Normal. (plain spider)

and you use PS for completely normal? I dont see why you wouldnt just use N's that way you dont have to deal with the same letter that your shortening the morph to..

with your square, what would something like ppSs or Ppss be, since arent the lower cases the ones that show up on the snake. super pastel with a spider gene that would be PP (two pastel genes) then S... PPS. a super pastel with a spider het? i think im right about the het there... but then again i could be wrong.

GenePirate did a good job answering your questions. But I'll just elaborate further.

You can definitely use "n" for "normal" genes. But it just gets confusing this way. Because then how do you know if you're talking about the normal spider gene? Or pastel gene? etc?

While doing it as P for wt and p for mutant allele may seem confusing, in the long run it will be easier.

An easy way to approach it is to, as a rule of thumb, use a capitol letter for the wt allele and a lowercase for the mutant allele. Then just pick a letter so its easy to identify what gene.

[Blue Apple Herps]

i still dont understand what stuff like CCGg is. It looks like a ghost. and has .... "caramel glow", but you say that the capital ones are just "normal" .... idk...

Again, using the standard method of capitol letters being wt and lower case being mutant, it makes figuring out CCGg a lot easier.

In this case C/c are for the caramel gene and G/g are for ghost.

So CC = means its wt and not het for caramel as there is no "c". Gg means its het for hypo since there is one G and one g. Because these are both recessive traits, you need to copies for the phenotype to be present.

Thus CCGg would be just a het ghost.

For a caramel glow, the genotype would be ccgg and a 100% wt snake would be CCGG.

Best way is to just take some different combinations and work them out on your own. And try using the capitol letter for wt and lower case for mutant with same letter for each allele on a gene to try and get used to this method.

Trust me when I say in the long run it will be a lot easier than using "n"