Feeding Problems, Does This Mouse Look Ok?

[ArmyWife98]

Hello All,

I have a baby ball python. Right after we bought him he had mites and went to the vet for two weeks. During that time they fed him live mice twice. We have been told that he ate frozen prior to that. Instead of waiting a week and trying it again they went right for live. We strongly prefer to feed him dead mice for a number of reasons and neither of us have the stomach to kill the mouse ourselves. We purchased a bag of 3 adult mice that were frozen. These mice are about 19 grams each and they look too big for our snake but we are not experts. The pet store swears this is what they were feeding it. It is much wider than our snake at any given point on the mouse. Also, I was surprised to find the mice looked as if they were beaten in the head to kill. They are bloody messes and some have their eyes hanging out. Is this typical of frozen mice?

We offered a mouse last week and he had no interest at all; however, he was about to shed. We are going to try it again tonight. Of course we have a feeder box and know to dangle the mouse in front of him a bit. We also know to thaw it of course.

At what point should we consider going to live mice? Does the theory "let him get hungry enough, he'll eat it" apply to a snake? We really really do not want to feed live. My husband is military and leaves for long periods of time and I am not going to feed the snake a live mouse while he is going so we really need to get him to eat this frozen one.

Any tips or thoughts are so greatly appreciated.

[butters!]

alot of things can come into play.first of all can you post a pic of his tank/tub?second those mice are not consumable in my opinion.its a shame he is leaving soon because i think you should feed live for at least a month.what are your concerns about feeding live?it is actually more inhumane to kill the mice unless you have a co2 chamber.snakes make quik work of there prey and it is a natural thing.i would suggest live hopper mice or live pinkey rats until he has adapted to his new home and gets used to eating every 7 days,then i would try to find some f/t from a reputable place.

[ArmyWife98]

Thank you for your input. To be perfectly honest I just cannot handle the thought of it killing the mouse or hearing the mouse scream. I know it is natural, I just cannot handle it. Also, my sister takes care of all of the snakes at the aquarium she works at (national aquarium, not a fish store) and they only feed frozen. I have been told another concern is injury to the snake. What I have read said that the only people who feed live are the ones who want to watch the snake eat for their own pleasure, I won't be in the room when he eats regardless. I don't know if that last statement is true or not but I have no desire to watch the snake eat. My husband probably wouldn't mind it but he prefers to feed frozen for the safety of the snake.

I purchased these mice at PetCo, I assumed they would have good quality frozen mice. This mouse was clearly smashed in the head to be killed (its eyes are hanging out and it's skill is flat). I had read that the mice should be flash frozen. Beyond the grossness factor I am concerned about contamination.

I want to take proper care of the snake and hope the snake can learn to eat frozen so we can all be happy.

I will get a picture of Nakey (our 2-year-old named him) either in his cage or near somethng that will give you an idea of his size. For now here is one with him on my husband's neck.

[Inknsteel]

I second the request for more detailed info about the setup. The only pic of the setup shows that you're using the analog dial type thermometer, and doesn't show anywhere for the snake to curl up, hide, and feel secure.

As for the feeding problems, it could be stress related due to temps, humidity, lack of a secure hide, etc. It could also be stress related to removing the snake from his enclosure and putting him into a separate "feeder box". This is not necessary, and only causes additional stress and increases the chance of refusals or regurgitation. I would suggest trying to feed in the snake's enclosure, in the late evening when they are naturally more alert and active. You can try the tough love method and only offer frozen thawed prey, however, unfortunately for us as keepers, some snakes will never readily take frozen thawed prey. I understand that the frozen thawed route is often cheaper and more convenient for us as owners and keepers of these animals, but ultimately you have to be willing to do what is best for the snake. And if the snake refuses frozen thawed prey, that may indeed mean feeding live prey.

[JayBP]

I definitely wouldn't feed my snake those.

[Mindibun]

There are a LOT of variables that need to be looked at before you even begin to discuss frozen vs. live. The main issue is probably security. A snake will not eat unless they feel 100% secure because they are most vulnerable while digesting. They would rather skip a meal or two to insure their safety, than risk being eaten by something bigger and badder than themselves (you). That being said, it is vital that you first perfect your snake's home.

I'm sure you already know most of this, but I'll post it anyway just in case. Ball pythons need at least two secure hiding spots. If they are forced to sit out in the open, they become nervous. By providing little houses for them, you make them feel safe. You should also try to cover the ground of the tank with foliage so that they are covered wherever they go.

Now, in regards to the feeding box... It is best to allow the snake to eat in its enclosure. If you go to great lengths to make the snake feel secure in its home, why would you take it out and put it into an unknown place and expect it to eat? It may be refusing to eat because it doesn't like being exposed in its feed box. Contrary to popular belief, ball pythons do not become aggressive because they are fed in their enclosure. If you handle the snake before feeding it, then the animal will associate the opening of the tank with it being picked up, not with food being presented, thus forcing it into strike mode.

Also, if you're not heating the tank properly and keeping the humidity high enough, the snake may refuse to eat. Temperatures should be around 92 degrees F on the warm side so that they can digest their meal. If the animal doesn't feel that it can digest, why would it eat? Likewise, you should keep the cool side around 78-80 degrees F, so that it can cool off when it needs to. Humidity should be around 50% which is easy to achieve if you purchase a wide, but shallow bowl. I have the $2 plastic ferret bowls in my cages and they are wide enough to keep the humidity at 60%.

When considering security, you also have to realize that too much interaction from you is seen as a threat to him. If you are constantly looking in on him, handling him, or offering prey more than once a week, then you are probably making him nervous.

I know you would rather not feed live, but if your husbandry is good and the snake still refuses to eat, you may have to offer it live prey to entice it to strike. The mice that you have are no good. I would throw them away and find another source of feeders. They should be clean and dry when you open them. But the idea is to first convince the snake that it wants to eat. He may not want to eat something that is already dead. I have a female that will not eat frozen, no matter what I do. It is your responsibility to see that your snake eats, despite any ethical or moral reserves that you may have. Trust me, I'm a vegetarian and a tree-hugging animal rights person. It took me a while, but I got over it. And snakes really are VERY adept at hunting and killing their prey. Death usually occurs in under 30 seconds. They squeeze so hard that not only do they stop the mouse from breathing, but they also cut off its blood supply. The mouse will lose consciousness and die a quick death. When you purchase frozen mice, they are either placed into the freezer while still alive, thus suffering a long, drawn out and miserable death. Or they are gassed with Co2. This is the same as suffocation. In all honesty, I think that the snake is much more humane than any of our methods. Think about it.

And best of luck with your baby. If you post photos of his enclosure, we may be able to help you out even more.

[ArmyWife98]

I took the picture after removing his rock. We did do our homework before making the purchase. He has a rock to curl up in and a generous sized water dish. I keep his temperature between 70 and 80 degrees. His humidity stays between 50 and 60, we're in southern Florida so that is what it is anyway. When he shows the first signs of shedding I keep his humidity between 70 and 80%. He on Sunday (4 days ago) and it was a complete and good shed. We have only had him for 3.5 weeks and of that he spent 2 weeks at the vet being treated for mites. Meaning, we have only attempted 1 feeding at home and it was with a mouse that looked exactly like the one in the photo, maybe a little less blood (it was 3 days before he shed). So I suppose I was premature in saying we have feeding problems.

We are going to toss these mice and go somewhere besides PetCo for a better looking frozen mouse.

I appreciate you all letting me know I am not crazy in thinking that mouse does not look right! Thanks again!

[Mindibun]

Also, there is no danger of injury to the snake if you are feeding appropriate sized live prey. You wouldn't want to feed your snake (which is just a baby) a large rat. You should look at giving him mouse hoppers most likely, which are practically defenseless. They don't even recognize the snake as a threat because they are so young. I doubt that they have any fear, though since I am not a mouse hopper, I can't say for sure.

[ArmyWife98]

MindiBun, you posted as I was writing. Thank you for taking so much time to help. We do handle him every night. He generally wraps himself around my husbands neck while we watch TV.

I am about to feed my family so I will come back to read your post in detail later this evening. Thank you so much for sharing your expertise.

[ArmyWife98]

PS...I will post photos of the enclosure tomorrow! Thank you all so much!