Compiled F/t Conversion Guide

[ThyTempest]

Allright, so after quite a while of reading a ton of different threads on switching a bp from live to frozen, I thought it would be helpful to try and compile it all into one thread for the sake of everyone else. Hopefully I can write it well enough and we can all get a good sticky out of it. First and foremost, I just want to let everyone know, this has none of my personal experience, as I am not a very experienced keeper and my one bp is still eating live. With that said, lets begin.

Why switch to frozen thawed?

There are a few really good reasons to switch. The two biggest are that it is safer for the snake, and typically easier/cheaper for the keeper. Live prey can potentially harm the snake by biting, scratching etc. Also, f/t is often offered on tongs (as can live), which means the snake will be striking more less into the air, lessening the chance of getting a mouthful of substrate. This can be particularly nice for display tank users who want to use Aspen or some other potentially dangerous but nice looking substrate.

So I want to feed frozen thawed, but my bp wont take it!

Your bp does not associate the f/t prey as being actual prey, yet. Here is a pretty well accepted general guide for switching a live feeding snake to a snake that will gladly take frozen thawed, hopefully quickly.

1)Pre-scent the room! This is critical. Leave the prey container (if live) in the room with the snake for at least 30 minutes to get the snake into feeding mode. Once you get to frozen/thawed, you can thaw the prey out under a lamp for the enclosure, or simply leave the f/t prey on top of the tub or tank for 30+ minutes. Another technique to add to this is to rub the f/t prey with a live prey to strengthen the scent.

2) Do not try to switch until at least 4 good feedings (assuming live).

3) After 4 live feedings, try offering a stunned prey. I have seen various ways of doing this, but it seems just whacking the prey on a table, etc is the most common. This dazes the prey, while leaving it live. It may twitch, and it is still breathing, so bp's tend to still think of it as prey. If this still does not go well, try rubbing the stunned prey on a live prey item, to try to mimic the scent even further. This rubbing technique is quite common, and should be used extensively

4) After several stunned feeding, try moving to pre-killed. The most accepted and humane way to euthanize is a CO2 chamber, and there are some good stickies on DIY chambers on the forums. This is what most people do. http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showthread.php?t=33850
With p/k prey, make sure to warm the prey up a little again, usually with a hair dryer, and dont forget to pre-scent.

5) After several p/k feedings, its time to try f/t. You can probably guess the procedure by now, but here it goes. Thaw the prey in a plastic bag surrounded by warm water. Be sure not to thaw too long otherwise the skin and other membranes become really weak and you or your snake will just make a mess, not to mention some snakes are picky about how strong the skin is. To be sure it is all thawed, but not cooked (dont cook it), you should be able to feel the ribs give just a little if you squeeze them, and not feel a firm, cold center. Again, there a lot of more posts on this, and if you have more questions, just ask. Anyway, once you have your prey thawed, leave it under a lamp, etc to pre-scent the room. Also, using a hair dryer to warm up and/or dry off the prey can help protect against refusal.

Well, I hope that covers it, let me know what you all think. Dont forget that this doesnt mean I talked about every single detail. I tried to be complete, but ask and you shall receive.

[littleindiangirl]

I do have a problem with stunning live prey. I think it's completely unnecessary and cruel. Put animals down with CO2, it's the humane thing to do.

[ThyTempest]

I dont like stunning either, but sometimes I think it may be neccesary to bridge from live to pre-killed. I think of all the steps, this is the one that could possibly be omitted, but for completeness, I tried to include it all.

[kc261]

Stunning is cruel, and takes a certain degree of skill to do it correctly. If done incorrectly, it becomes even more cruel (if the prey gets whacked but not stunned), or possibly dangerous to the snake (if a not-quite-stunned-enough prey wakes up), or pointless (if the prey ends up dead).

You list it as if it is a necessary step. It isn't. My BP converted directly from live to f/t with no in-between steps.

There are several other problems with your write-up that make me think you should do more research and/or just have more experience before you try to write something intended to be comprehensive guide to be stickied. Part of it may be your writing style... you present things (such as going through the stunned prey step) as if they are the only way to do it, but if you really had spent "quite a while of reading a ton of different threads", I can't imagine you haven't come across any of the numerous other possibilities that aren't mentioned in your write-up.

Good idea, it just needs a lot of work before I'd consider it sticky-worthy.

[missi182]

Good attempt, but perhaps next time if you want to write a step by step hoping to help new keepers, pass it along to an admin or a few moderators so they can help you edit or advise any changes before posting. There are many members that can point out benefits to feeding live, and will happily challenge some of the points you have made.

I have also successfully switched my bp from live to frozen simply by being patient and doing the zombie dance. This may not work for everyone, which I know you understand and you are trying to help, but some snakes simply will never eat f/t and some of the steps you have included may not work at all.

[Stewart_Reptiles]

There are a few really good reasons to switch. The two biggest are that it is safer for the snake, and typically easier/cheaper for the keeper.

I disagree with this generality, live feeding can be done safely and it's not always cheaper.

When done responsibly live feeding can be safe just like when done irresponsibly F/T feeding can become unsafe!

After 4 live feedings, try offering a stunned prey.

I disagree also, unecessary and inumane a BP can be swtich from live to F/T without having to switch to stunned in the process.

[littleindiangirl]

My thoughts exactly Casey. I find stunning is a challenge that new keepers shouldn't attempt, as there are many other ways to successfully switch BP's to FT that don't involve inhumane measures to the prey item.

I think that for a complete write up, you should have explored other techniques that are easier to do, and don't involve whacking anything. Not everyone enjoys whacking rats or mice, and may not understand that the way you've presented that it that it isn't truly necessary.

There are many ways to successfully switch BP's, and stunning is one of those things that I find completely unnecessary.

Sorry, but that's just what I thought about the write up.

[ThyTempest]

No apologies neccesary everyone, I didnt mean for this to be an end all be all this is the way it has to be kind of deal. I guess I didnt really word myself well, not only in the guide, but for my intentions. I didnt really intend on this being stickied, I just wanted to point out that a sticky on this subject would really help out a lot of people. With that in mind, I figured I may as well attempt it, and to be honest, I expected results like this, so dont feel bad. If someone else wants to work on a potential sticky, feel free as I am confident someone who has better writing skills than me, and more experience, would be able to write a better guide. With that said, maybe in a few weeks I can try again. Thanks for all the help.

[NightLad]

My issue with stunning is that it has a certain degree of failure, resulting in the prey coming-to and automatically entering 'defensive/attack mode' - thus making it far more dangerous to the snake than an otherwise calm and unsuspecting morsel might be.

Snakes kill by striking and using the element of surprise; they were not meant for rough-and-tumble brawls. That is how they get seriously injured, and can even be killed.

In my experience, when feeding live, keep the prey calm and comfortable prior to being introduced to the snakes enclosure or feeding-tub. Give it water, food, some paper towel to nest in, etc. That way, it will enter the new environment in the best possible state for your snake to make its strike.

Yet, even this is not fool-proof.

Despite my best efforts and careful observation, Salzedo got bit right in the eye by a mouse that evaded his first strike and thus entered 'attack mode.'

$320 in vet bills later (resulting in a hard lesson learned, but a fully recovered Salzedo) I have NO trouble what-so-ever pre-killing. The once highly-picky Salzedo eats pre-killed (I guess he learned his lesson, too!) and soon we will be going to F/T.

My prior reluctance to pre-kill most likely stemmed from a misguided notion of compassion. I've had mice and rats as pets when I was younger, so they are not just 'food stuffs' to me. However, as I am an omnivore, I cannot justify feeding meat to my pet without being able to do what is necessary to prepare it in a way that I personally feel is the best and safest.* On this note, if I had to, I feel I could kill a chicken or pig to feed myself.

As it has also been mentioned, Stunning, when not done correctly, can seriously injure the mouse without killing it, thus leaving it in pain. For myself, I don't consider that good Karma.

* Please note that I said, "in the way that I personally feel." I was not attempting to make generalizations. I know that everybody has their own beliefs about the best way to do this-or-that for their snake, and I support the diversity. However, for those who'd dismiss my comments by saying, "I've fed live one hundred billion times without incident" I'll remind you that it just takes once!

EDIT: My points about 'stunning' aside, I did enjoy the guide you created. I think it serves a good purpose. I wish there had been a more condensed guide like this when I was starting out.

[Stewart_Reptiles]

I think it could be a good sticky however the wording need to be a bit different, the beginning sound more like a Pro F/T when really there is not F/T vs Live debate it's all about being responsible and chose what works and his convenient.

The stunning part is also really unnecessary.