Newbie~

[Lowen]

I'm new to the site and I just thought I'd say hello.

I came for alot of reasons, but mainly because I want to get into breeding and I need a little help to make sure I make the right choices. I also don't know my python's gender. I'm a bit afraid to try to sex him myself, because I'm afraid I might hurt him. If anyone knows an alternative way to sex a python, please let me know. I certainly can't breed until I know Patch's gender.

Oh, some things one might want to know are as follows.

I am so strongly against inbreeding that I refused to talk on a forum about my snake for a very long time because I knew that the people there were knowingly inbreeding their snakes. Please do not bring the subject to me. If I get into it myself, I have no right to preach, but please don't talk to me about it. It can only end badly.

I am a "starving biologist" in the Midwestern region, and I'm working with reptiles and amphibians at the present time. Snakes scare the crud out of me, believe it or not, but ball pythons are very different. I don't even refer to my Patch as a snake. I just call him my "mobile necklace" or my "cuddleworm".

As I said before, I am looking into breeding. I'd really like to get an interesting morph (that I know has NOT been inbred) and pair him with Patchy and see what happens. I'd dance on my hands with a knife in my mouth for an albino, but that's an unlikely wish, really.

So again hello, and I look forward to meeting all of you!

[Nate]

I'm new to the site and I just thought I'd say hello.

I came for alot of reasons, but mainly because I want to get into breeding and I need a little help to make sure I make the right choices. I also don't know my python's gender. I'm a bit afraid to try to sex him myself, because I'm afraid I might hurt him. If anyone knows an alternative way to sex a python, please let me know. I certainly can't breed until I know Patch's gender.

Oh, some things one might want to know are as follows.

I am so strongly against inbreeding that I refused to talk on a forum about my snake for a very long time because I knew that the people there were knowingly inbreeding their snakes. Please do not bring the subject to me. If I get into it myself, I have no right to preach, but please don't talk to me about it. It can only end badly.

I am a "starving biologist" in the Midwestern region, and I'm working with reptiles and amphibians at the present time. Snakes scare the crud out of me, believe it or not, but ball pythons are very different. I don't even refer to my Patch as a snake. I just call him my "mobile necklace" or my "cuddleworm".

As I said before, I am looking into breeding. I'd really like to get an interesting morph (that I know has NOT been inbred) and pair him with Patchy and see what happens. I'd dance on my hands with a knife in my mouth for an albino, but that's an unlikely wish, really.

So again hello, and I look forward to meeting all of you!

Welcome to the forum!

I think a majority of ball python morphs have been line bred, or bred back to their parents, to prove the morph out. So, if you're against any sort of inbreeding, then breeding is not for you.

[Freakie_frog]

First of all welcome to their site you will find that we are just chocked full of information on all different types of subjects. As for you quest to sex your snake with out hurting it that is very admirable that your that concerned about your animal. I would suggest taking it to a vet and having them show you how to properly sex your animals. Sexing is a MUST HAVE skill for any breeder.

Their are many great breeders out their that can offer you a morph that has non related parents. Most of the time all you have to do is request it any many will be more than happy to do what they can.

Best of Luck and welcome to the site

[starmom]

Welcome to the forum!!! There has been lots of breeding going on around with loads of clutches dropping and even a few pips here and there!!! Ask questions, share your knowledge, and enjoy your stay!

[kc261]

I think a majority of ball python morphs have been line bred, or bred back to their parents, to prove the morph out. So, if you're against any sort of inbreeding, then breeding is not for you.

Welcome!

As Nathan pointed out, most, if not all, morph BPs have at least some inbreeding and/or line breeding in their history. In fact, you will find this to be true of most, if not all, domesticated animals. For many, the records may not go back far enough for you to know exactly what inbreeding was done, but this is how we ended up with breeds of dogs, and sheep that produce nice wool, and pigs that make plenty of yummy bacon, etc. It also depends on how you define inbreeding... sister to brother? parent to child? grandparent to grandchild? cousin to cousin?

You used some pretty strong statements about how you feel about inbreeding. If you are against any sort of inbreeding, at all, then Nathan was probably right when he said breeding may not be for you. If you just mean you don't like it when it is done excessively, that is very different. But then I have trouble understanding why you would have trouble even talking about it.

Also it is very unrealistic to expect that by posting this one post, no one will ever bring up inbreeding to you (if that is what you were expecting).

The only ways to reliably determine a BPs gender are popping and probing. For both, it is recommended you learn from someone experienced in doing it, so you will learn the proper way of doing it without harming the snake.

If you do decide to continue with your breeding plans, you will find tons of information and lots of helpful people on this site!

[janeothejungle]

From one 'starving biologist' to another, Welcome to the forums. You'll find lots of useful (and a little bit of strange) info around here. It's a lot like wading through primary research...... always consider the methodology.

Cheers,
Kat

[Lowen]

I think it's pretty sad that people seem to think that you can't breed animals without inbreeding them. Snakes are not complex creatures as far as emotions go. Most of the things they do are driven by instinct, however, if you have an especially tame snake who seems to enjoy being handled, this snake probably has more intellect than another snake since it has the ability to recognize and enjoy affection. What I'm getting at is that it is pretty darn hard to mess up a snake mentally. The instincts there are so strong that the snake would have to have an extraordinarily shallow genepool to lack the abilities necessary to survive. Unfortunately, I have seen this all too many times. When inbreeding is encouraged, it happens. I would really rather not discuss it further. You have your opinions, and I have mine. I'd like not to talk about it anymore.

My plans are a bit top-secret.
If they work, I can garantee you everyone will want a piece of the action, and I will gladly help out. I am not doing this for money, I am doing this for the good of the future of the breed. Unfortunately, I think there's a 50-50 chance that it will or won't work. I can't guarantee anything really.

[nevohraalnavnoj]

Most of the things they do are driven by instinct, however, if you have an especially tame snake who seems to enjoy being handled, this snake probably has more intellect than another snake since it has the ability to recognize and enjoy affection.

Welcome, fellow mid-westerner.

Your above quotation crosses the border from science to pseudo-science (or worse), and you may want to refrain from re-iterating that sentiment as a biologist.

The arguments regarding line breeding and in-breeding are long, and there are many logical arguments on both sides of the issue.

JonV

[edie]

I think having a tame snake has to do with the way they are raised, not anything to do with the animals intelligence. If the snake was born/raised in captivity with constant human contact of course the snake will be more use to living this way and tolerate the human handling it, this does not make the pet snake more intelligent than its wild relatives, it just means it was brought up in different circumstances and has adapted to them accordingly. A snake in the wild would have no human contact, and therefore see a human as a threat to its life, and would not "enjoy" being handled by humans.

Just my opinion.

Good luck on breeding, I haven't done it but I think it sounds like a lot of work! Just make sure you ask a lot of questions!

[kc261]

I think it's pretty sad that people seem to think that you can't breed animals without inbreeding them. Snakes are not complex creatures as far as emotions go. Most of the things they do are driven by instinct, however, if you have an especially tame snake who seems to enjoy being handled, this snake probably has more intellect than another snake since it has the ability to recognize and enjoy affection. What I'm getting at is that it is pretty darn hard to mess up a snake mentally. The instincts there are so strong that the snake would have to have an extraordinarily shallow genepool to lack the abilities necessary to survive. Unfortunately, I have seen this all too many times. When inbreeding is encouraged, it happens. I would really rather not discuss it further. You have your opinions, and I have mine. I'd like not to talk about it anymore.

I fail to see the link between inbreeding and snakes' emotions.

I also don't accept people who bring up a subject, say they don't want to discuss it, insult people, say they don't want to discuss it, etc. Either discuss it, or don't. Don't expect to be able to get the last word in by saying "I would really rather not duscuss it further" right after throwing around insults.

No one said you can't breed animals without inbreeding them. Nathan pointed out that a majority of morph BPs were inbred in the original attempts to prove out the morphs. I took it a step further and pointed out that inbreeding has been done with most, if not all, domestic animals. Nothing about it being necessary, just that it has been done, and done a lot.

I also asked you to clarify where you draw the line as far as what is and what is not inbreeding. That was to understand you better, to help anyone who might help you find a BP to know what you would and would not consider to be acceptable breeding stock, and to allow anyone who wanted to be better able to help you breed what you wanted without crossing the line you don't want to cross. For example, until we know if you consider cousin to cousin to be inbreeding, we can't know if making that suggestion will be helpful to you or offensive.