Gorilla's War on Mites

[FireproofGorilla]

I know there are plenty of mite threads on the site. But I need specifics. My 3 month-old BP has got mites. I acquired her 1 month ago and she's as sweet as can be. She's in blue right now and still a sweetheart. I've given her and her habitat two treatments of Reptile Relief (http://www.reptilesupply.com/product...oducts_id=1020) on the habitat and Zoomed's Mite-Off (http://www.reptilesupply.com/product...roducts_id=406) on her. I read the ingredients and they're the same components, but Zoomed says it's safe to use on her.

"Mite Off has no effect on complex organisms like human beings, animals (i.e. reptiles, dogs, cats, etc.), and plants. Mite Off is completely non-toxic and is safe for the water and environment (no pesticides). Mite Off is even safe to spray into your reptile's eyes, a favorite hiding place of mites."

I take that statement with a grain of salt. The little bastards still show up two days later. I've waited three days between treatments. Do I give her a third or does someone recommend a better product or method?

The shrink ray is heating up and I've got my M-16 strapped to my back. I'm goin' in and doin' it the old fashioned way if no one has any ideas.

[MeMe]

Provent-A-Mite (P.A.M.)

[FireproofGorilla]

Yeah, I'm gonna have to get some of that if this last treatment didn't work. Everyone seems to be recommending that. Is it safe to spray directly onto her or is it just for her enclosure and furniture?

[FIREball]

Enclosure only. Spray with the animal and water dish out side of the tub and let sit for atleast 30 minutes before placing the animal back in the tub. Instructions are on the can and plenty of aides on bp.net

[GYLONG]

Or Equate Bedding Spray Lice Treatment $4 at Wal-Mart. Same as P.A.M.

[rabernet]

Provent-A-Mite - kills mites dead. Reptile Relief does kill mites on the snake to provide him/her some relief, but not the eggs.

Treat the enclosure only with PAM - a little goes a long way. Once completely dry, put the snake back in the enclosure. You have won the war on mites. You can re-treat one more time in 30 days, but one treatment seems to work in most cases.

I don't trust my collection to anything less. ANY time a new animal enters my collection, their enclosure is pre-treated with PAM, and the rest of my collection gets a re-treatment of their enclosures - even though new animals are quarantined. I will not risk the chance of carrying a mite or eggs on my clothing, no matter how careful I think I'm being.

[rabernet]

Or Equate Bedding Spray Lice Treatment $4 at Wal-Mart. Same as P.A.M.

Actually, it's not.

Since all of these other products are designed to be used with or around mammals, this is not a great concern as the toxicity to mammals, even the most toxic formulas, will not have a significant impact on them. Since these products were approved by the EPA for the labeled use only, no studies had to be performed to see if the specific cis-trans ratio or overall formula would potentially hurt any other type of host not on the label. Additionally, most of the formula is listed as inerts because the testing required by the EPA was only for the hosts, pests and sites listed on the label. Many of these inerts can potentially be toxic to reptiles and if the manufacture went to the EPA for this approval, their formula would be denied due to the fact that these inert ingredients would actually be an active (and potentially harmful) ingredient if used on reptiles.

We had to spend a significant amount of time and money providing several studies to the EPA before we were finally granted our approval. The EPA originally denied our application because they knew that most (they assumed all) permethrin formulas were toxic to reptiles, so we had to complete several more studies to prove that our formula wasn’t.

As to your claims that our product is just another permethrin product that is the same as all of the others, you are sadly mistaken. A master label can be approved for many alternate formulas that doesn’t (and never will) have to be disclosed to the public. Few small companies can handle all of the costs to manufacture a product totally on their own, especially a low production specialty market item, so they team up with a company that is large enough to do so. Just because we used another company to help us defray the costs of production doesn't mean that it is their product and on the contrary, since we have a patent, no other company can produce or market our product. We took our formula to them and asked them to help us get it on the market. If you actually scrutinize the CIC label, you will see that there is no claim for use with reptiles, or to kill any ectoparasites that feed on reptiles. You will only find these claims on our independent 73617 label. By "backdooring" an alternate formula on the label was the only way to keep costs from being prohibitive. If you do some more searching, you will discover that the CIC product is not on the market in any other form with the exception of Provent-a-mite. Why? because we were exclusively using this master label to save time and money. It is actually even more complicated as we also have received other federal approvals that will not show up on any registration. No other product can or does use our formula, to make this assumption could be a deadly mistake. Many people have called us after the fact stating that they did kill their animals using other “same as” permethrin products.

Another problem with using off label products is the potential to create a resistant strain of pests because the formula used exposes them to a sub lethal dose, so it doesn’t kill them, instead allowing them to develop resistance to the chemical. Insects are amazingly adaptable, and possess an enzyme system called the mixed-function oxidases (MFO's) that give them the ability to de-toxify and become resistant to many insecticides, especially synthetic pyrethroids. Continual application of pesticides not designed for a specific use start the build-up of resistance and thus the efficacy of the product diminishes. We are very aware of this and Provent-a-mite is formulated specifically so this can’t happen. Using other formulas can expose the pest to a sub lethal dose. No one thinks this is a big deal until we do finally create a strain of resistant ectoparasites that can’t be controlled. This might sound like science fiction, except for the fact that it is happening at the present time with many chemical formulas, including Nix. The use of Nix has created resistant head lice in several countries.

I invite anyone to call these other manufactures to see if they will support the use of their products for this purpose or that they are the same as Provent-a-mite™. One can contact the regulatory affairs manager at Qualis (make Equate for Walmart), Inc., 4600 Park Avenue, Des Moines, IA 50321-1237, (515) 243-3000 or Spectrum Brands (make Repel Permanone), U.S. Home & Garden Headquarters, 13260 Corporate Exchange Drive, Bridgeton, MO 63044,(314) 427-0780 or (800)242-1166; just to name a few.
Provent-a-mite™ is the only product that has been approved by the EPA and USDA, has undergone extensive clinical and field studies to insure that will eliminate, not just control a mite or tick problem and is unique enough to have received a US patent. No other product is more effective or can make these claims and certainly no other product is the same as Provent-a-mite™
Since you say that your statements are fact and mine are only a biased opinion, would you please indicate your academic background and experience dealing with pesticide formulation development, the USEPA and the rules and regulations regarding the registration process as well as how many times you have been involved with the EPA, manufactured a pesticide product or gone through the process of a pesticide application?
The bottom line is that anyone can use what they want, but there is no way anyone knows what is actually in the product being used, only what the label states. Because of industry trade secrets, no one will ever be able to find out. Unless the approved EPA label specifically states that the product can be used on a reptile to control specific ectoparasites, the user is taking the risk of causing acute or more often, chronic health problems to their animals as well as the issue of resistance. Shall we talk about Pest Strips?

and

One does need a chemical background to understand that there are many possible variations to the molecule and that these variations can significantly alter the toxicity of the isomer, not to mention the other chemicals in a formula. Most of these products are developed to be produced as cheaply as possible and to be as toxic as possible so they will be more effective in killing the pest. The cheaper molecules available are more toxic. As I said previously, since these other products are all formulated to use with or around mammals, it really doesn’t matter as (with the possible exception of one formula we are aware of) these molecules have a relatively low toxicity with mammals. It is a very different story with other living things, especially lower vertebrates and invertebrates. This is why we had such a hard time getting our approval from the EPA, as they are experts concerning these chemicals and based on such knowledge were convinced from the beginning that we couldn’t develop a formula that wouldn’t be toxic to reptiles, either acutely or chronically.
It can take years with our animals being used as guinea pigs before any potential problems become apparent using any off label product. Pest strips are a classic example of this. All of the experts touted how good they were to eradicate ectoparasites and only after many years of us using them, was it discovered that they were potentially harmful to our animals, causing health problems that often took a long time before causing the demise of the animal. Many experts now acknowledge the problem with their use. Even though their potential toxicity can’t be disputed, there are many people that still swear by them and use them. Few people would use an off labeled product on themselves, their family, dog or cat, but in this industry some people don’t think twice about using something off label on their reptiles, despite any risk that may be associated with its use.

I can guarantee you that the formulas these other companies manufacture are all different and they are trade secrets, so one will never know what it is. Companies use different suppliers, who sell different isomers and the inerts will be what that company has decided to use.

It is bad enough when someone uses a product with no real knowledge of what they are actually using, but it is worse when they start making statements purporting to be an expert, trying to convince others that they know what they are talking about, when in reality, they do not. Use what you want, but when your expensive animal dies next week, next month, next year, maybe 2 or 3 years down the road, or starts throwing slugs, or develops other health problems, you can wonder if it was as a result of using unproven, off label products.

Bob Pound promist@comcast.net
Pro Products www.pro-products.com

Bold and Underline are my emphasis - which I think are pretty important when people decide to recommend PAM "substitutes". I'm not willing to take that chance with my animals, and each keeper needs to understand the risks before they decide to go the "cheaper" route. In the end, if your animal is one that reacts negatively to an off brand product, how much did you really save?

Quotes were from this thread: http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...Provent-a-mite

[Stewart_Reptiles]

Or Equate Bedding Spray Lice Treatment $4 at Wal-Mart. Same as P.A.M.

Not the same as Robin already posted, Equate is not designed to be used with reptiles, and long term effects on reptiles are not known,

Do do you really think saving a few bucks is worth taking a risk with your snakes???

Personally I don't think so I value my snakes too much and I would not recommend something I would not use myself.

[Corrupter]

I'm just throwing this out there as an alternative to chemicals. I have a friend who swears by this method because it gets rid of every stage of mites, including the eggs. I am currently trying it for the first time and so far, I would say it is working. It appears that there are no more mites left on or around the 2 snakes that I treated last week, but time will tell if they are completely eradicated. Here is the link:

http://www.biconet.com/biocontrol/hypoaspis.html

[sg1trogdor]

I have heard from many people on this site that rid(lice spray) Is the same exact thing as P.A.M. I believe they even posted ingredients and % of them and they were exactly the same. Sorry but I cannot find the thread and I really dont feel like looking for it just letting you know what I was told.