All Genes Are Not Created Equal Or Are They?

[JStennett]

Hello All,
Let me first say before you flame my post do keep in mind that I am a newbie and my thoughts expressed in this post are just thoughts I have had since I have started in this hobby. I might not have all the facts or even have them correctly and if I don’t please feel free to fill me in as I would really like to learn about this hobby and for some industry.

What I am having trouble understanding is why everything out there is a quality breeder. I have seen post after post on different classified sites and it seems every animal on there is of breeder quality. This I do not understand.

I breed and show dogs and have done so for many years and I can assure you that not every puppy in a litter is breeder quality. So why is that the case in the ball python hobby? I am sure many breeders keep their holdbacks for the most part and then there might out of a litter of 5 be 3 or so on average that have the color and markings to be truly called breeder quality.

I understand when you are dealing with the new morphs you breed whatever you can. But take for example albino shouldn’t there be some standard of coloration and markings as to what is or isn’t breeder quality in this well established morph?

After all the genes passed on and expressed are not always the same in a litter and with a breeding program wouldn’t one want to start with the best quality animal they could find?

Here is the other thing I do not understand just because a bigger breeder has something for sale doesn’t always make it better. I mean isn’t it more likely that will keep the best for themselves to improve their stock?

Shouldn’t one be more selective when starting a breeding program or is this how it is just pair two snakes together and see how it goes? This concept is hard for me to follow since I firmly believe all genes are not created equal.

Your thoughts are of course welcome,

Jeremiah L Stennett

[wolfy-hound]

The way I think of it regarding big breeders is...
If you have five clutchs of eggs(of which SOME will be morphs) then you have a greater chance of keeping the REAL lookers, since only a small fraction of the hatched snakes will be the highest quality, right? So, maybe you end up with say... 4 REAL lookers, stunning animals. It's pretty easy to keep those four.
Now, you're a BIG breeder, and you have 50 clutches. You might have 50 "lookers" that are stunning, and you'll sell a lot of those, because even the big breeders only keep back so many from any year.
Now, if it's quality breeding vs quantity breeding, I think smaller breeders are more likely to focus on a single trait(say albinos with sharp markings), and you might get stunning animals.
The reason that there are MANY ads for "stunning top quality" animals is the sales point. I'm pretty sure no dog breeder advertises his puppies as "Ugly, but hey, you want a dog right?" LOL.
Plus, everyone thinks THEIR snakes are prettiest. And some people think one thing is gorgeous, while others admire something totally different.
Some folks will breed for the morphs, and for singular combonations of morphs. Some will breed for the best morph, some for the best normal. It's all in what you love best.
Some are going to breed ANY two snakes they can get. That's exactly the same as dog breeders. There's plenty of folks that will snatch any two pomeranians and breed them, and sell those pups as "high quality".
So, it's not as if there is some big Snake Organization that is out there rating all the snakes and giving them points as to what is best looking. As long as the snake is healthy, I never have seen a ugly ball python. I prefer clean lines, and more reduced patterns with chocolatey colorations. Other prefer busy patterns and loads of black. Who is to say which of us is preferring the "higher quality" snake?

[frankykeno]

Jeremiah, I'm always sorry to see anyone start a thread with a "please don't flame me statement". I hope at BPNet we've grown enough to debate with reason and respect so you should feel comfortable introducing a topic like this.

As far as snakes being promoted as "breeder quality" remember this isn't a hobby/breeding business that has breed standards like the purebred dog world does. We do to some degree have them but they aren't written in stone like the dog world is. A person can breed a pastel for instance and call it whatever they want as far as quality goes as a marketing tool. It's pretty much up to the buyer to decide if that's the particular look in a pastel that they want.

Part of the buying decision for my husband and I when we look at any snake is the look of the snake but also the "quality" of it is expressed for us anyway, in the person that bred it. That might mean a big breeder or a small breeder. For us it's about trusting our source for our foundation breeders as being people of quality as much as they produce snakes of quality.

Snakes as well, are so unique it's hard to set a particular standard. No normal looks exactly like any other normal when it comes to shade, pattern, etc. I can visually ID every normal I have at a glance based on their specific look. Every morph is as unique as you've likely already seen looking through snakes for sale. In the end it's up to the individual to decide what snake and what breeder they feel fits their specific needs or plans for their collection, at least in my opinion. That does require a lot of smarts on the buyer's part and a lot of research but in that I can't image it's much different than the purebred dog world.

[Gloryhound]

Nerd has developed some form of a standard for grading their snakes. They advertise them as graded and put down starting price for the lowest of the grade. Does their grading system meet up with all the owners of snakes? While Kevin (Owner of Nerd) is a top dog in the industry and I am sure he has developed his method not only off of personal preference, but market research as well, he still can't speak for everyone. I'm sure other breeders have developed their own way of judging quality as well. It would be great if some basic guide line was created in judging snakes, but to do that you would have to get a lot of people onboard with it and actually have them all agree! If you don't get the Barkers (Owners of VPI), or any of the other major breeders, to come on board with the grading system then the integrity of the grading system becomes suspect. For us a lot of it has to do with lines of morphs. For a basic pastel the Graziani line is very well known. Lemon pastel is a distinct line from Nerd. The Bell Blond pastel is also another lesser known distinct line of pastel. Having one of these lines of pastels that can be traced back to its origions is what I think can make a significant difference in the breeder quality of the snake. Also 5 different lines of Axanthics exist with only 2 of them known to be compatible with one another when breeding. A significant portion of the ball Python community considers the VPI line of axanthic to be superior, but I'm sure others may think the other lines have qualities than make them better and possibly down the road in the creation of double and triple morphs one of the other lines could prove to be a better choice or the only choice in the creation of something.

It all comes down to the fact that so little is truely known about snake breeding compared to dogs at this time and we are learning new things every year! Every year new morphs are created. How many new breeds of dogs are created every year? Dogs have a lot of other proven traits that they can be judged on that take them beyond what you see. These beyond what you can see traits in snakes probably exist, but the actual study of them and seeing if they are genetic really hasn't even begun!

[panthercz]

It's a marketing tool.

Everyone's opinion is different on what looks best, but I see that phrase being tossed around to the point of ad nauseam.

Get what *you* think looks best or has the characteristics that you prefer. Ignore any labels...

[Sputnik]

It's a marketing tool.

Everyone's opinion is different on what looks best, but I see that phrase being tossed around to the point of ad nauseam.

Get what *you* think looks best or has the characteristics that you prefer. Ignore any labels...

I agree. What looks great to some may not be what someone else is wanting.