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  1. #1
    BPnet Veteran bearhart's Avatar
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    Bath experience / needs a checkup?

    Little bit of background story...

    So, I used to have my BP's water dish halfway covered and located right by his hide and he used to soak alot. He eventually started soaking way too much I think partly because he was getting too big for the arrangment and the water dish was starting to make the best hide. I used to have the warm-side alot hotter back then so that may have had something to do with it too. I changed things around and uncovered his dish and he adopted his new hide and everything has been hunky-dory for a while.

    Meanwhile, there's his whole chin rubbing thing. He's always rubbed the sides of his mouth against his grape-wood log. He used to only do it after feeding but now he does it anytime he's out and about. His mouth looks clean when he yawns and I can't see anything amiss on the outside. But, he just yawns alot and always does this rubbing thing.

    Now to my story...

    Yesterday he seemed like he was getting a bit darker on the sides and this morning I definately noticed his eye-stripe was looking really dingy. I figured he's probably a bit dirty. The coloration may have been just an illusion of the lighting at the time. But, rubbing his head all over the place was bound to get him dirty. Since he doesn't soak any more I looked up a bath thread I saw a while back and gave it a read.

    I did the 1-inch of warm water in the bathtub thing. I probably should have taken more time to put him in because he freaked out a bit at first. ("help help I'm drowning!!!) He went under and then got his wits and started swimming. I've never seen him move so much it was wild! He recoiled once when there was nothing in front of him so I think perhaps he couldn't see too well against the big white tub as a background. Eventually, he chilled out some more but he was still looking like he wasn't having alot of fun so I went to get him out.

    Now, he can be pretty cooperative about getting picked up at times but I don't think I've ever seen him quite this cooperative - LOL. Also, after I picked him up he was very serene. I pulled up the front of my shirt to dry him off a bit and he patiently waited while looking up at me like "Daddy?" or "Thank God for saving my life!" I'm not sure. Also, when I put him back in his tank he was very chilled out and basked for a little bit before calmy retiring to his hide. In the end I think he really liked it but maybe the details need improvement.

    This head rubbing thing does worry me a bit though. I know he's getting close to shed (not in blue though - its just been several weeks) but it just seems like something that most people don't see often or at all. Should I get him a check-up at a vet?
    1.0 Normal BP - "Snakey"
    1.0 Jungle carpet python - "Chewbacca" aka "Chewie"
    0.1 Olive python - "Cleopatra" aka "Cleo"
    0.0.1 Corn - "Husker"
    1.0 Veiled Chameleon - "Kermit"

  2. #2
    Steel Magnolia rabernet's Avatar
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    Re: Bath experience / needs a checkup?

    The amount of head rubbing and yawning would suggest a possible respiratory infection, which cannot be cleared up without antibiotic treatments, it will quietly progress, and since ball pythons are good at hiding illnesses until they are REALLY sick (other than the rubbing and yawning appears otherwise healthy to you), I would find a qualified herp vet to see him and do a culture to a) rule out a RI or b) identify what strain and best antibiotic to treat with.

    Good luck.

  3. #3
    BPnet Veteran bearhart's Avatar
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    Re: Bath experience / needs a checkup?

    Yea, I'm really wanting to go even if only for a general checkup and to hear that he's OK. I've got a list of vets from dr. del by PM. I'm sure I can find one here.

    so, what about poop sample. he's due for one any day now should I go ahead and take that in too?
    1.0 Normal BP - "Snakey"
    1.0 Jungle carpet python - "Chewbacca" aka "Chewie"
    0.1 Olive python - "Cleopatra" aka "Cleo"
    0.0.1 Corn - "Husker"
    1.0 Veiled Chameleon - "Kermit"

  4. #4
    BPnet Veteran bearhart's Avatar
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    Re: Bath experience / needs a checkup?

    A few more details here:

    I've had him since Jan '07. They had $99 balls marked "Extra Fancy" and $69 balls marked "Fancy" and I was told that the difference in price and marking what due to the fact that the x-tra fancies came from a breeder that they knew well while the others were not. I had set a budget for myself and, honestly, Snakey caught my eye from the very beginning and he looked as fancy as any of them in there. So, Snakey was a bargain bin buy. Great disposition, strong eater, grows fast, etc. The attendant estimated that Snakey was born (hatched?) roughly Sept. '06.

    He's has always yawned alot. The mouth rubbing thing, however, has developed over time since I've owned him. I would say that it started a few months ago and, for some time, he would only do a few times right after feeding. Recently, say last month, the frequency and intensity of the running has increased alot and can be seen whenever he's out and about. Otherwise, he's still the great, healthy snake he's always been.

    Does this timeline match that of an RI?
    1.0 Normal BP - "Snakey"
    1.0 Jungle carpet python - "Chewbacca" aka "Chewie"
    0.1 Olive python - "Cleopatra" aka "Cleo"
    0.0.1 Corn - "Husker"
    1.0 Veiled Chameleon - "Kermit"

  5. #5
    Steel Magnolia rabernet's Avatar
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    Re: Bath experience / needs a checkup?

    Having not experienced a RI in my own collection yet, it's hard for me to say on the timeline. Are you seeing any "slime", sort of like what a slug leaves behind where he's rubbing? Run your fingers around his enclosure and on smooth surfaces and see if you feel anything that feels "sticky" or "tacky".


    Often when they are constantly rubbing their mouths, they are trying to clear mucus from their mouths, and it will leave that residue behind.

    As for the poop sample, if it's within a few days of your vet visit, it wouldn't hurt to take a sample in (refrigerated, not frozen) to test for internal parasites.

    Good luck, I'm sure a wellness visit from your vet will ease any concerns that you may have. Be sure, however, that the vet do a culture to test for the RI (take a swab from his mouth). That way you'll know without a doubt and can catch it early on if he does have one.

  6. #6
    BPnet Veteran bearhart's Avatar
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    Re: Bath experience / needs a checkup?

    So, Snakey went to the vet today. The vet is on the ARAV list and has won "vet of the year" type awards from the Texas Veterinarions Association (or some such). He has both a general "unconventional species" as well as a specialized avian one. As you might guess he is a bird specialist. So, some good and bad. His knowledge of snakes seemed good. He certainly seemed to know his way around one.

    I've never seen Snakey so P.O.'ed before. He was a good boy though - no hissing or biting. The vet was impressed and said he didn't act like a ball but more like a burm.

    The vet did identify mild signs of infection in Snakey's mouth: an excess of mucuous and a darker pink color at the back of the mouth by the throat. He said he may have RI and gave me some anti-biotics. I asked about culture and he said that he has done perhaps thousands of cultures on snakes and 99% of the time the bacteria can be killed with this stuff call "baytil". He offered to do one but said that it was $90 and that he preferred to try the antibiotic first and then do the more expensive testing if the problem did not go away. It sounded very reasonable to me.

    There was only one thing that didn't sit well with me. As he was finalizing his diagnosis and explaining it to me he kept saying "open mouth breathing". Initially I said "well I wouldn't call it that" and then he kept on and said it again. I said "Look, I want to make sure we're clear here. I came here because he rubs his mouth and yawns alot. He does not breath with an open mouth." So, he got him back out and re-inspected his jaw area and gums very closely. They looked very good. Then he showed me his "wet mouth" and the throat and said it looked like RI. BUT, I was just looking some stuff up on snake health problem for a post and I see RI and this thing called "stomatis". The description of RI was kind of close. Then I read "stomatis" and right there it was "mouth rubbing"! Does Snakey have mouth rot?!?!
    1.0 Normal BP - "Snakey"
    1.0 Jungle carpet python - "Chewbacca" aka "Chewie"
    0.1 Olive python - "Cleopatra" aka "Cleo"
    0.0.1 Corn - "Husker"
    1.0 Veiled Chameleon - "Kermit"

  7. #7
    in evinco persecutus dr del's Avatar
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    Re: Bath experience / needs a checkup?

    Hi,


    I think it's called "Baytril". ( well it is over here)

    It's something I have had prescribed for URI's before - the reason we say culture is because a lot of the advice we give comes from large scale keepers who, obviously, have a lot more animals and want the infection killed first time to prevent it spreading and a culture gaurantees only an effective treatment is used first time out the gate as it were.

    And a yawn IS open mouthed breathing if you think of it - it opens its mouth and gasps for air. Now if the infection became more intense then that would become more and more apparent till he was sitting with his mouth open for extended periods.

    As Robin already said in her earlier post mouth rubbing is also a feature of RI's as they try and relieve themselves of the excess mucus.

    Stomatitis has a markedly different appearance in the mouth of the animal and it is extremely unlikely a competant herp vet would confuse them.

    You say his gums and jaws were clear when a search for pictures of stomatitis will show you that it presents with red, inflamed spots or cheesy build up in those areas.

    If the vet showed you excess mucus and visible inflamation of the respiritory tract then accept the fact you have an infection of the respiritory tract.


    dr del
    Derek

    7 adult Royals (2.5), 1.0 COS Pastel, 1.0 Enchi, 1.1 Lesser platty Royal python, 1.1 Black pastel Royal python, 0.1 Blue eyed leucistic ( Super lesser), 0.1 Piebald Royal python, 1.0 Sinaloan milk snake 1.0 crested gecko and 1 bad case of ETS. no wife, no surprise.

  8. #8
    Steel Magnolia rabernet's Avatar
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    Re: Bath experience / needs a checkup?

    One other thing to note, since you didn't specify in your re-cap. Was the Baytril oral or injectible? Reptiles do not absorb oral mediations effeciently, so injectible is much more effective in treating the RI.

    It's good that it sounds like you've caught it early on!

  9. #9
    BPnet Veteran bearhart's Avatar
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    Re: Bath experience / needs a checkup?

    After reading some more on Stomatitis I came to the conclusion that his mouth looked far too clean to match the majority of the symptom descriptions. So yes, I'm going to trust the vet.

    gotta run....to be continued...
    1.0 Normal BP - "Snakey"
    1.0 Jungle carpet python - "Chewbacca" aka "Chewie"
    0.1 Olive python - "Cleopatra" aka "Cleo"
    0.0.1 Corn - "Husker"
    1.0 Veiled Chameleon - "Kermit"

  10. #10
    BPnet Veteran elevatethis's Avatar
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    Re: Bath experience / needs a checkup?

    Very important....did the vet give you antibiotics that were administered orally or injected?

    FYI...oral antibiotics have been shown to be not effective in ball pythons. Injection is the only way to go.
    -Brad

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