Husbandry issue?

[m2sexi97]

[B][B]Hello Everyone,

I am the owner of two ball pythons, One of them i have had for 1 1/2 years and the other for about 4 months. Origionally I kept the little guy in a seperate 20 gallon tank, but my husband decided it would be a good idea to put him in with the big snake. I know it is winter and the bigger snake (Niko) did not want to eat before we put the little one in, we tried to get him to eat a baby rat 3x's but he didnt budge. So we have left them both alone for the last week and a half. It seems now Niko is about to shed and hasnt eaten in 3 1/2 weeks, the little one ate last week (still eats baby mice)
I got the second snake from a girl that at first thought was a boa and completely negleted it, and kept a red heat lamp directly above it 24-7. I know it isnt the best idea to keep two snakes together, expecially since there is a difference in size. As far as fighting over the space, it seems that even though i have two caves for them they still sleep with eachother, Niko doesnt try crushing the little one or taking up the entire heat pad, under the tank, he lets the little one pretty much take up all the space in the cave. Everytime the little on comes out to climb, the big one is right their and they are always slithering all over eachother and seem to be fine. Niko had a buddy a long time ago when we first got him, we bought another ball. But the other one escaped and, I later found him in the closet dead. Yes, i have taken big measures to assure that does not happen again. We currently have them both living in a 170 gallon tank, and I love that they have a huge space to slither around to there hearts content, and i do not belive in keeping a reptile in a plastic container with no vines, vegitation or anything at all, is cruel and they should live in there cage the way they would in grasslands, with alot of space and freedom. Do you all think that Niko is stressed out because of the little one? I have taken Niko to the vet, he was checked out and everyhting seems just fine, The fact is he always even in the winter time had a great appetite. The little one has had an issue fully shedding, but theres just a little bit of unshed skin near his head. Nothing really huge and they seem to deficate just fine also. I give them warm baths at least once a week, I make sure there is humididty. I might just be freaking out, because this is the first time he hasnt eatin in this amount of time. Since he got igger we cut down his feeding to once every two weeks.If anyone has any suggestions, I would liike to hear from you.
Thanks

[lillyorchid]

Snakes are NOT social creatures. They will never be "buddies". Please separate them since by keeping them together is only stressing them out. They may not show it, but believe me they would rather by alone.


Also keeping them in plastic tubs is not "cruel". Plastic tubs keep the heat and humidity perfect very very very easy. Also BP's aren't climbers, so they don't need branches, etc. A roomy tub is fine for them.

[elevatethis]

Alright...where to start.

Don't house two snakes together. Ball pythons are solitary creatures and the problems you are having with either of them are most likely directly related to the stress that they are experiencing by having to share a space with another snake.

We currently have them both living in a 170 gallon tank, and I love that they have a huge space to slither around to there hearts content, and i do not belive in keeping a reptile in a plastic container with no vines, vegitation or anything at all, is cruel and they should live in there cage the way they would in grasslands, with alot of space and freedom.

Although this may sound "good" to you and that you are doing them a favor, your underlying assumption that captivity should mimic the wild is completely false.

Ball pythons in captivity thrive under different conditions than wild ball pythons would thrive in. Captive ball pythons actually benefit from the enclosed, simplistic caging that you deem as "cruel," when if fact it does better to meet their needs than an enclosure that attempts to mimic the environment they would have in the wild. Your 170 gallon tank does not even come close to simulating their wild environment, and the issues you are asking about (non-eating, bad shedding) are major indicators of this.

Keep an open mind. A lot of new keepers like to personify their snakes, thinking they like big spaces or the company of other snakes. This is just simply not the case.

[m2sexi97]

Can someone please tell me why this is such an issue as far as keeping them together? Ive seen people keeping 15 snakes in one enclosure at one time, i'm sure that is a pretty stressful situation but I have a huge tank, and separate sleeping quarters for them. Where can I actually find the concrete proof of this, and how it affects the snake... sugestions?....Books? sites?

[cris78]

u should not house them together..im sure that is the cause of his stress..get another tank, and seperate them asap..aslo 170 gl tank is way too big for a ball..they like to feel secure..u would need hides all over..a 40 gl is enough space for him..how big is the other one?...

[cris78]

Can someone please tell me why this is such an issue as far as keeping them together? Ive seen people keeping 15 snakes in one enclosure at one time, i'm sure that is a pretty stressful situation but I have a huge tank, and separate sleeping quarters for them. Where can I actually find the concrete proof of this, and how it affects the snake... sugestions?....Books? sites?

snakes are not social...therfore do not do well together unless they are breeding..they dont live in groups in the wild.

and tubs are not cruel, as it been said it keeps humidity very well...

[m2sexi97]

I don't feel I am just "mimicking" their natural enviroment, why is it wrong to keep them in a place where they have many natural things surrounding them? why is it wrong to have them live semi what it would be like in had wild versus nothing at all? Also the bigger one (Niko) was not eating before we put the little one in there.

[elevatethis]

Can someone please tell me why this is such an issue as far as keeping them together? Ive seen people keeping 15 snakes in one enclosure at one time, i'm sure that is a pretty stressful situation but I have a huge tank, and separate sleeping quarters for them. Where can I actually find the concrete proof of this, and how it affects the snake... sugestions?....Books? sites?

Anyone have that link that showed the ball pythons were housed together and the cannibalism and subsequent death of both of them?

Housing ball pythons together in a confined space (yes, your 170 gallon tank may be big, but not compared to the tens of thousands of acres that ball pythons in the wild have to roam) will cause stress that builds over time. You may notice small problems now, which will only get worse over time. Stress in captivity as a result of poor husbandry is a silent killer in captive reptiles, often leaving the keeper with their arms in the air not knowing what happened.

They are your snakes, and you can do what you want with them...just don't argue with the advice given to you. If you want concrete proof, go out and research for yourself....

[elevatethis]

I don't feel I am just "mimicking" their natural enviroment, why is it wrong to keep them in a place where they have many natural things surrounding them? why is it wrong to have them live semi what it would be like in had wild versus nothing at all? Also the bigger one (Niko) was not eating before we put the little one in there.

Your missing the whole idea here. If you can't mimic nature 100%, you should not attempt to do it at all.

Thus, providing them with a captive environment that has been proven successful over and over is the only option if you want a healthy animal.

If you want a more naturalistic setup (which can be done), go with a smaller tank (20-40 gallons) for each snake individually. There's a write-up in the husbandry section about doing this with a glass tank.

[cris78]

just read any caresheet and all u're ques will be answered..