Substrate-less incubation

[Evan Jamison]

We used this method for a couple clutches this season with success (1 clutch hatched yesterday), and I'd like to share my experience, as well as hear from others that have tried this method.

I set up our "substrate-less" incubation box with about an inch-and-a-half of perlite, and a piece of egg-crate (the plastic type, also called light diffuser; home depot etc.) cut to fit on top of the perlite layer, and added water up to the level of the top of the perlite. The eggs are set onto the egg crate. The perlite acts as something for the egg crate to sit up out of the water, so any kind of spacer could be used as long as it keeps the water level below the egg crate. The perlite also acts as a baffle, so keeps the water from sloshing around if you need to move the eggs box.

The reason I like this method is that the eggs aren't in contact with the incubation medium, so the amount of water in the system doesn't matter, as long as the water level doesn't reach the egg. Also, if the egg box is not a closed system, or the egg box is opened frequently, there is still no worry that the humidity in the box will drop too low to keep the humidity up.

I set up our first few egg boxes this season the way I have usually set them up, perlite, vermiculite, and water. My incubation boxes are not air-tight, but the humidity in my incubator stays pretty high, so I usually don't have problems with water-loss from the egg boxes. One egg in our first clutch this season started to collapse quite a bit. All the other eggs in the clutch were in contact with the substrate, and were doing fine. The one that was collapsing was up out of the substrate. This makes me think I probably didn't add quite enough water to the incubation box when I set them up. This egg had collapsed quite a bit before I moved it into a substrate-less box, along with two others. The collapsed egg did not collapse any more, and the other two eggs stayed plump for the duration of incubation. They hatched the same day as the rest of the clutch. All the eggs in the other clutch we incubated using this method also stayed pretty plump until about a week before hatching, and all hatched successfully.

Has anyone else tried this incubation method? What were your experiences with it? I'd like to hear any comments about this method too.

-Evan

[xdeus]

I was thinking about using that method, but instead of using perlite I was planning on using vermiculite as I had just bought a huge bag from HD. The only problem with the vermiculite is that it tends to float on top of the water. I'm not sure if that would be a problem, but I haven't tested it long enough to see if the top layer of the vermiculite would dry out and form a crust. I might just end up using the perlite as that is the only way I've seen the no-sub method used.

[kavmon]

i know alot of chondro guys use the no-sub with no problems. for balls, i'm just going to copy vpi,nerd,rdr and countless others that have doing this for years, it has worked for them, many times over... just my thoughts



vaughn

[Ginevive]

I was thinking of this too; my Little Giant Still Air incubator has a wire mesh screen that sets into the bottom hanf of the styrofoam base, and the eggs could probably go ontop of some egg crate on this. I have them in vermi inside r-maids now; it was a clutch of 8, and 6 collapsed and died; the seventh is on its last leg I think, doing the same, but the eighth is still nice and white, candled nicely today, and has minimal collapsing/denting on top that is not getting any worse now. I now wonder if the media (vermi) could have possibly acted as a harbor for bacteria, and thus harmed the eggs that died? The inc. does have spaces in its base to add water, but unf. you can't just fill it, say, a few inches, as there are some vent holes and the water just comes out.

I have a question; how do you heat the water? I have tried making an inc. on the side, with an aquarium heater, and the water did not go over 80 degrees. It was only in a small styro cooler.

[Wild Bill]

I have a friend that uses no substrate for ball pythons and it works great for him. I personally use the same method as the Snakekeeper video and it seems to be working.

Vermiculite and perilite shouldn't cause any bacteria that would harm the eggs, I just think the temps and humidity problems at the beginning of your clutch took its toll.

[Wild Bill]

I have a question; how do you heat the water? I have tried making an inc. on the side, with an aquarium heater, and the water did not go over 80 degrees. It was only in a small styro cooler.

Well some substrate-less incubation methods are different. Using an aquarium heater it depends on the number of gallons of water and the wattage of your heater. To get 89 degrees you will need a higher watt heater.

Some people just put water in a tub and float a lid inside with the eggs on top of it sitting on paper towels. Of course the lid fits snugly so it doesnt tip, then they put the cover on the tub and set the tub in the incubator.

I think I will just stick with the vermiculite and perilite mixture.

[cueball]

Good thread Evan! This is my first year with eggs and I went with the substrate-less method aswell. I have mine setup exactly like your setup but have had the eggs in there since day one. Given that I do not have much to compare to I am not sure how well they are doing. Mine are on day 39 and have held their shape and form for the most part. They are just now starting to dimple a little. Looking at a local pals eggs on substrate it seems like mine are staying much more full. The container has beads of water all over it but the egg surface is "dry". I am sold on this method thus far and look forward to cleaner hatchlings.

[Wild Bill]

Its not really substrate-less if you have substrate in the box. LOL...

[Ginevive]

It kinda seems like "hydroponic" incubating!

[Adam_Wysocki]

I now wonder if the media (vermi) could have possibly acted as a harbor for bacteria, and thus harmed the eggs that died?

Nope. Good eggs are strong enough to withstand mold and bacteria growth. I have had an egg go bad next to a good egg, and the mold and fuzz from the bad egg spread all around the good one and the good one hatched.

The simple truth is that eggs that are't meant to make it die, eggs that are supposed to live ... do.

-adam