Help me plan/setup a feeder colony? (rats)

[SnakeySnakeSnake]

I plan on getting 20 females in the near future, but I want to setup a feeding colony first so I dont go broke

For now, lets say I am feeding 20 females that way 500 grams each (though I may be getting 200 grams instead, which will be easier to start)


I was thinking of 3 1.3 setups, one aquired each week.

This way I ideally have 3 females producing each week, ~ avg 10-15 per litter thats 30-45 babies... I would need to let the babies get up to ~ 4-6 weeks of age to be proper size for feeding I believe, and I could rotate out/rest the females in the 1.3 setups in order to get the proper number of babies, and not end up overrun.


I would like to be able to feed off 20 appropriately sized rats each week.


Should I go with 10 gallon tanks, or cement mixing tubs with tops? How many of these will I need (obviously 3 for breeding, several for birthing mothers, and then a few large ones for the male and female feeder population to grow up)

I'm trying to figure out if this is something I will be able to maintain and exactly how much it will be costing me to feed them monthly.

Any help is appreciated, Ive read a lot of threads on here and this is how far ive gotten so far. I may have to add another 1.3 or 2 in order to allow mothers more rest.

[frankykeno]

Alternately you could just go with 2 colonies....colony A with a breeding male and say 5 females rotating in and out for breeding and colony B with another breeding male with his 5 females....still 12 adults but only two colonies to manage....then when it's time to pick a few females for next generation breeders (females start breeding later and stop earlier than males)...you can use your own younger females from colony A with the male from colony B...no excessive inbreeding that way.

I personally prefer the 50 qt rubbermaids...you do lose some space efficiency but they are bigger therefore hold more rats comfortably especially females with large litters to weaning age. I also prefer the clear view with them as I can visually check the rats without moving a tub. Really your preference though as long as the space is adequate for rats. I find 10 gallon tanks (I have only one left) are harder to clean...have more issues with smell especially with mature male rats and are just plain harder to clean and they realistically cannot comfortably hold many rats especially if one is a large breeding male. Plus you have to spend money or make metal water bottle covers as you can't just melt a hole for the water spigot to feed through like you can on plastic tubs. Just my take on it though.

If you went with 2 colonies I figure you'd need....

2 tubs for the males and whatever females you are cycling in for breeding (I'd probably cycle in no more than 3 at a time depending on size of tub)
2 tubs for females waiting to breed for both colonies (once the first group show pregnancy, cycle them out, freeing up these tubs to become maternity tubs)
4 more tubs for maternity (one mother and her litter per tub)

The racks I buy from WalMart for my 50 qt rubbermaids hold 4 tubs per rack...each rack costs $17.88 and snaps together in about 5 minutes.

Depending on your litter sizes and what you feed off you'd need at least two feeder/grower tubs (1 for males, 1 for females over 5 weeks of age). Depending on how many you need to grow out you may want to look at large long rubbermaid or sterlite tubs so crowding won't be an issue as they grow or have more than 2 feeder grower tubs running

With two colonies cycling...you'd have either 4 or 6 females birthing at any given time....with an average litter size of say 10 (usually more though)...that is 40 to 60 rats being born on any given cycle

If you wish to rest your females (I do and think it helps them birth even stronger litters each time) you'll need a tub or two for them to hang out in.

The initial cost is a bit but over the long haul as long as you don't mind cleaning tubs it's rewarding & fairly cost effective (least I think so) as well as having the benefit of knowing exactly what quality of prey your snake is getting. Another very nice thing is if your snake refuses...you just pop the rat back in to grow another week...no refreezing or waste of a prey item.

Hope this helps somewhat.


~~Jo~~

[SnakeySnakeSnake]

Thanks Jo! I knew I could count on you giving a very helpful response.

I'm not worried about the expenditure starting out as I know it will pay off in the long run.

As far as those tubs, will I have to worry about them chewing out of them? I can place airholes in the lid tops that way they have no easy way of chewing, but I figure the spot where the water comes in will be susceptible to attack.

I currently have 1 male and 1 female. I bought them from the local pet co and wasnt too impressed with the health/quality of them, but that could just be my narrow view on it. Should I try to purchase another 9 females and 1 male from there? Or are there often local breeders I can pick some up from?

As far as feeding goes... how do you go about controlling feed into a large tub with 40-50 growing rats? Is it just that some will get more than others, or that it will balance out over time?

Is the most cost effective bedding a large back of aspen or something similar? I was using care fresh but that was low-volume.

Another thing, will I need a few extra tubs to transfer them into as i clean out the big tubs weekly? Im guessing the best way to take c are of a tub with dozens of rats in it is just completely remove all the bedding as soon as it needs it.


What kind of racks do you use? the plastic snap together stand ones?

Thanks again!

[frankykeno]

As far as those tubs, will I have to worry about them chewing out of them? I can place airholes in the lid tops that way they have no easy way of chewing, but I figure the spot where the water comes in will be susceptible to attack.

Just melt the hole no larger than the spigot to the water bottle or feed the water bottle in throught the top mesh insert (pic to follow re the mesh insert). You always have to watch for chewing with plastic but I keep chewing issues down by giving them stuff to chew on like toilet or papertowel tubes.

I currently have 1 male and 1 female. I bought them from the local pet co and wasnt too impressed with the health/quality of them, but that could just be my narrow view on it. Should I try to purchase another 9 females and 1 male from there? Or are there often local breeders I can pick some up from?

All my original breeders came from a local pet store. Be picky. If you aren't happy with the 2 you have now find another pet store or ask around about rat breeders but if they are breeding for show/pet they most likely will not sell you breeding stock for feeder breeding. I try to buy breeding stock during different weeks at the pet store or from different stores to get more genetic diversity (most pet store rats are inbred enough as it is). Like any foundation breeding animal you want the best for your buying buck even if it's a $3.00 rat.

As far as feeding goes... how do you go about controlling feed into a large tub with 40-50 growing rats? Is it just that some will get more than others, or that it will balance out over time?

I don't have a tub that would ever hold that many rats. Haven't a clue how bigger breeders do it as far as max numbers per tub. Remember that rats are social creatures but will not do well in overcrowding so you will end up as my granny said "cutting off your nose to spite your face". I would rather go with less rats per tub and more tubs. Divide them by sex, feed them lots, give them stuff to chew on, if you notice a few getting a lot bigger than others...pull those out to another tub to allow the smaller ones to get a bit more in the chow line. I personally don't notice any huge size differences though of course there's a normal difference in rats from the same litter.

Is the most cost effective bedding a large back of aspen or something similar? I was using care fresh but that was low-volume.

I prefer aspen....especially for breeders as they will be with you for quite a long time...others use pine. I know Becky gets a killer deal on huge bags of aspen at TSC (Tractor Supply Company). Aspen always come compressed so don't be fooled, even a smaller bag goes a long way once you break it up.

Another thing, will I need a few extra tubs to transfer them into as i clean out the big tubs weekly? Im guessing the best way to take care of a tub with dozens of rats in it is just completely remove all the bedding as soon as it needs it.

Again, I just have one breeding colony so anything I say is based on that experience not a bigger setup (though I will be doing my 2 colony idea soon). I have big buckets with lids (holes melted in). Home Depot for instance sells them cheap...mine are from dry laundry detergent from WalMart...I just washed them out well. Rats go in the bucket...lid snaps on securely and bingo bango...clean tub...rats go back in...bucket get rinsed and left to air dry. Females with litters I do differently...the female goes in a small container...the babies I take out...count, check for health and signs they are nursing well...then they go in their own small container (bunch of old big margarine tubs LOL)...same deal for cleaning then mother and young are back in their clean home. I like checking all my rat young each cleaning day (Sunday) so if I have any non-thriving I can cull or deal with issues prior to weaning.

What kind of racks do you use? the plastic snap together stand ones?

Very easy to scrub when needed....holds one 50 qt tub per shelf (almost holds 2 side by side but not quite...darn it LOL)....nice and sturdy...they are actually meant for pantry type shelving...here's the specs:
DuraShelf (#9144), 4-Tier Free Standing Shelving Unit, 300 lb capacity (75 lbs per shelf), no tools required to assemble, hard white plastic, 35.25" wide x 14.25" deep x 55.25" high- $17.88 WalMart



The tubs I use....note the green wire insert (and hugely preggie female lol)...just some spare stuff I had...what I have to use on any new tubs I make is 1/2" (19 gauge) hardware cloth (galvanized wire)...I got my roll at Home Depot...2' x 5'...$5.98...grab a bag of good zip ties there too (couple of bucks)...some tin snips/wire cutters and you are good to go...you just cut out a good size rectangle in the lid...lay in the mesh overlapping the cut edges a good inch or so...melt in some holes with your handy dandy soldering wand and zip tie the mesh down tightly....excellent ventilation. I did add some side holes to my tubs as my current rat room has crummy ventilation but it does heighten the risk of chewing so try to avoid that (so far none of mine chew but still...extra worry). The tub specs are:
Rubbermaid Latchable, 50 qt, clear - anywhere from 5 to 8 bucks depending where you get them or if they are on sale. They are good tubs but have a slight give at the corners to treat that like you would a snake's rubbermaid tub...binder clips, weight on the ends, whatever works for you.

Lordy I wrote a book LOL. Hope that answered your questions thus far. There's a lot of ways to breed rats, mine is certainly not the only way. I feel I've had a lot of success but so do many folks who use different methods or equipment. All I can tell you about is my choices.

~~Jo~~

[cassandra]

Jo, you might think about condensing this down into a "Rat Colony DIY/FAQ" thing that can be put in the DIY/FAQ section thingies...=) Such great info!

[SnakeySnakeSnake]

I think I will have 6 maternity tubs... Im guessing most rats get weaned at earliest 3-4 weeks, so all ratlings up until 4 weeks of age will be in maternity tubs (which should be 60-80 rats if not more) and then use the extra holding tubs for aging them (like fine wine

Thanks for all the ideas Jo, definitely helping me come up with a manageable response to this when I was overwhelmed at first.

Am i missing anything from this list?


Number of Breeder Rats to start: 2 males, 10 females. Separated into two colonies.



Number of tubs. 2 for breeding(2-6 rats), 2 for holding female breeders(1-2), 4 for maternity(mother + 10 babies), 2 for males(10-20 each) 2 for females (10-20 each)



Water Bottles: 12 bottles

Food Bowls: 16

Misc: Wire mesh, Zip ties

Bedding: bulk aspen or pine

Food: bulk food mix http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showthread.php?t=28391

And lab blocks included.



Rat Rack: Enough racking area to hold 12 tubs

Soldering iron

[SnakeySnakeSnake]

I think that is what i will do for a rack. Painted with a few coats and it should be pretty easy to clean up. Shouldnt be more than $30-40 for parts and will hold 12 tubs.

Total structure would be 8 feet long 4 feet tall and 2 feet deep.

2 breeding tubs, 2 female holder/fallback maternity tubs, 4 maternity tubs, 1 tub for 4-5 week male feeders, 1 tub for 5-6 week male feeders, 1 tub for 4-5 week female feeders, 1 tub for 5-6 week female feeders.
~$40 rack
~$60 tubs
~$24 water bottles
~$10 food dishes

$134 + food = rat factory hopefully

+60 for 12 $5 medium rats

[jknudson]

You forgot the initial rat cost.

Great plan, and I would like to say excellent thread! I would love to see this turn into a sticky as well.

Jason

[Bdadawg]

I run 3 colonies.

Each colony is 1:4 with one female always cycling out (so it would really be 1:5). My breeding stock was purchased from 5 different sources to ensure good genetic viability.

Bereder adults are kept in the Super Pets Cages Think they are 18"t X 24"w X 30"L. Once they are visibly pregnant they are moved into birthing enclosures, these are 96 qt "rubbermaid snap toppers". I cut out the majority of the lid with an electric saw ... put in hardware cloth, and on the inside (where the rats can chew at it) I put in 1.5" 1/8" thick flat aluminum. That was riveted to the top of the lid. Bottles are either the hang on type or the Lixit bottles you screw to the cage. Pictured here are the breeding enclosures and how I made the lids. I must stress that I looked through 20 different tubs to find ones with straight sides (no lips no projections etc anywhere in the tub that the rats could get a bite on).



Here is bottom sides of the lids



I have 7 of these enclosures I normally only use 5-6 at any time. The other ones are always ready to go. When cleaning day comes I switch the rat with babies into the already done tub and put on her lid. The lid and bottle follow the rat. The tub changes every 5 days. When all the ones with pups are done I put the rats in other setups into one of these enclosures while cleaning their enclosures, then transfer them back.

Here are 2 of my grow out enclosures ... One is a christmas tree tub with the same lid conversion. This is for 7 week plus juveniles. The second is a 55 gallon aqauarium for 4-6 week juveniles. PVC "runs" have been added to both enclosures to maximize space. I also add applewood drilled and hung on copper wire for chews. Mostly they use it as roosts.





Bedding is where I pay the most money. I cant yet find aspen in quantites I need. So I use a 50/50 mix of shredder newspaper and cardboard, mixed 50/50 with aspen. This provides fluff, soft bedding, good absorbency, low smell, and a good composting material. 80% of all waste from the rats goes into a compost pile, my garden, my worm bins, or is given away as compost. I still have to "rent" an extra garbage can for waste. This is $7 a month.

Ive found that making sure the rats are temp controlled makes a HUGE difference. Above 76f and they drink alot of water and produce more urine (more smell). Under 65f and they are fairly inactive. I try to keep between 68-72f. Heating, Cooling, Electricity, and water bills have went up about $20 a month (total for all).

My next biggest cost is feed. As im in an agricultural area I feed Sueebees Mix. Nutro Natural For seniors ($34 per 50 lb bag), whole oats, tri-color pasta, grain waste, cereal (mostly cheerios and Total), dried fruit, fresh veggies or fruits nightly, chicken and turkey bones, and some assorted "treats". This all comes out to about $40 a month (I dont currently use a whole bag of dog food a week.) I prefer this diet because I can adjust it instantly to suit the needs of the rats (i.e. A smaller rat with a large litter will wear out fast, I give them more of the pastas and cereals for prolonged energy and to help them bounce back faster)

I spend at least 1 hr a night checking on them, watering, changing water, checking for illness, and preparing diet. Every 5 days (cleaning day) I spend 3 hrs cleaning enclosures, runs, water bottles, nests, etc. Anything that wont fit into the dishwasher gets a bleach wipe down.

Sick or injured animals are quarantined in an entirely different room. I have 4 quarantine cages. Seldom have anything go in there ... but its better than having a whole colony go down with a RI.

At any given time I have 70 pups between pinkies and 5 weeks. Trying to decide at which point they go into the Co2 chamber is a hit and miss scenario. Most of my needs are for pups under 10 days (thats also what I sell the most of). However whenever I put down a large chunk of hoppers I usually get a call for smalls.

Think that covers most of my monthly operating costs. I wish I had gone with a Pro rack system with auto waterers and feeders. That may still come at a later date.

The last thing is if not in rack systems your breeders should be at least had tame as you will be moving them around. I hate it when I have to decide wether or not I need to go get stitches cause one of my females just bit all the way to the bone.

Bryan

[JimiSnakes]

If I could make a suggestion...Get your males from a totally different area than your females. Different pet stores or something. A lot of breeders don't care if they inbreed their rats. This way you would be a little safer.