Hello everyone. I have a few questions.

[JB_Orchidguy]

First off I would like to say this site is awsome. It has been a wonderful learning experience in just the 2 days of finding this site. I have had my Balls for about 12 years now. Maybe longer. My snakes seem happy, but after reading the caresheet I plan on making some changes. I keep my male and female in the same cage that I built, and everything seems gravy. Although I only have one hidebox and I'm using a heatrock. As I said I plan on makeing changes so don't get upset just yet. My babies have been through alot in the breaf stent they were not with me about 8 years ago. I recieved them back with mites, no water, and really skinny. All is well now though and they are happy from what I can tell. The few questions I have are relativly simple, but I want to confirm them with the folks who know more than I.

The cage I have built is huge, and on the cold side. I plan on rebuilding their cage to a smaller dimention. I know most of you do not condone keeping male and female snakes together, but these two have been together for so long I do not want to spit them up unless for furture breeding purposes. So the question is would the cage size recomendation of 36"x18"x12" be adiquate for these two full grown Balls?

My babies are also picky eaters. They only eat mice. I feed them on average 5 mice/every 2 weeks or so. I know they need to be on a scedual, but they are not in the wild so I am not on a set scedual yet. I will try to get them on one. My snakes are not fat. They used to be when I first had them. I was feeding them every week 2 or 3 mice and I was seeing skinn between scales ar one point. After getting them back from the stent away from me, (longer story), they were skinny. Really Skinny. Now they are at a healthy weight I think. I will post pictures as soon as I can and figur out how to do it on this board. I said they only eat mice, because when I did try to feed a rat pup the snakes struck the rat and imediately released. Didn;'t constrict or attempt to kill it after. What I think is they do not like the course fur of the rats, and prefure the soft fur of a mouse. I have heard of that happening with people who feed their snakes hamsters. Hamsters have even softer fur and snakes get spoiled after a few meels on hamsters. So does it sound ok if I continue feeding the 4 to 5 mice when I feed them. and those guys stop when they are full sometimes the female only eats 3 and I feed the rest to the male since I buy 8 to 10 at a time. Sometimes I have to return extra mice, but thats not to often.

I know this is getting long, but bare with me please.

Now I have been reading and come across the different "morphs". I think my female is a cinnomon pastel. Atleast she looks that color compaired to the pictures on here. I will post pictures for everyone elses opinion. My male is a normal for sure. What classifies a ball to be a pastel?

As I stated earlier these babies have been together for about 10 years now always in the same cage and always together. Even when she was sitting on eggs. She has laid them about 4 or 5 time that I can remember. I haven't had any sucess hatching, but I know the conditions are not correct for the eggs. I will be building an incubater for this next clutch. I cut open one of the dead eggs one time she laid them. It was a few years ago, but if my memory serves me properly the egg I opened had a baby in it that looked like a pieball. I contributed it to the baby not being mature, but aparently that was not the case. Is it possible to get pieballs from a cinnomon pastel female and a male normal? I will try to get pictures up tomorrow after I get home from school (Bio 2 lab), and I am at work right now. Thanks for the info and I look forward to chatting with the breeders on here. I think I will be getting into balls more heavily in the coming years.

Oh one more questions to this already long thread. Why do many people keep snakes in a plastic tote that the beauty of these creatures cannot be appreciated? I understand keeping babies for sale in the shoebox type storage housings, but every snake? I'm just curious and was wondering this. I'm not new to Balls, but I am still extremely green about them. I didn't do my homework on these babies like I did with my orchids, but I am going to fix that. Thanks everyone!!

Josh

[Adam_Wysocki]

Wow, lots of stuff ... I'll take it point by point ...

The cage I have built is huge, and on the cold side.

I know most of you do not condone keeping male and female snakes together, but these two have been together for so long I do not want to spit them up unless for furture breeding purposes.

My babies are also picky eaters.

All of these things go together … and now you know.

I think my female is a cinnomon pastel.

If she is, the only way to know is to breed her and see what her offspring look like ... if her look is inheritable, she just might be.

It was a few years ago, but if my memory serves me properly the egg I opened had a baby in it that looked like a pieball. I contributed it to the baby not being mature, but aparently that was not the case.

Actually, it probably was the case ... color and pattern are expressed during the final stages of development. Most ball pythons that don't make it full term are white or have white elements. Temperature fluctuations around the eggs can also affect pattern and color.

Is it possible to get pieballs from a cinnomon pastel female and a male normal?

No.

Oh one more questions to this already long thread. Why do many people keep snakes in a plastic tote that the beauty of these creatures cannot be appreciated?

Because it's the most effective way to provide them with a proper environment ... I don't think it's fair to pass judgment on how other keepers choose to appreciate their animals ... just because it's not how "you" would do it, doesn't make it wrong.

-adam

[JB_Orchidguy]

Oh no please do not take it as passing judgement. If it came accross like that please forgive me. I was not trying to pass judgement by no means. I plan to stay here a while and do not want enimies here on my second day.

My babies have always since I got them only wanted to eat mice. Just to note I feed them in cardboard boxxes outside their cage. The female was like that when she was the only one. I will attempt it again when I get a more apporpriate cage built.

I will wait till the next clutch and hopefully I will get them to hatch this time, and the pieball mystery will be solved. Maybe the female is not a pastel, and if that is the case then it would be possible to get a pie? But I think the not full term baby may be the reason for the pie look too. I have the new design in my head for the enclosure and will use a glass bottom with flexwatt for the UTH on one side. That should also be on the side with the ceramic heat emiter for the warm side correct? Was the size ok for the two snakes?

[Adam_Wysocki]

Was the size ok for the two snakes?

I'm not the right guy to help you with that ... I don't feel that any size cage is "ok" for two snakes.

One snake, one cage.

-adam

[tigerlily]

Welcome to the forum! I just moved from Augusta, GA about a year ago. Very cool area.

You've already gotten some good advice, my only other point would be to take that heat rock out and bury it. Or cut the cord and make it into a nice decoration. THEY CAUSE THERMAL BURNS!! Very bad. I don't even know why the make the stupid things. Anyway, that's all I have to add right now. Maybe my brain will kick in a bit mroe in the morning.

[daniel1983]

Go out and buy two sterilite 41 qt. tubs(measuring 36" x 17" x6") and house both of your ball pythons seperately

In order to produce piebalds, both of your ball pythons would have to be heterzygous piebald(i.e. normal looking ball pythons that carry the pied gene). If you did not purchase the babies as het. piebalds, you have about a 1 in a million chance that they are het pieds.

Welcome to the site!

[Shelby]

It's extremely unlikely that you have any sort of morph. A cinnamon pastel is worth thousands of dollars and it's unlikely that you just happened to get one.

Even though you've had your snakes together a long time, doesn't mean they're happy together. Snakes are solitary creatures and being with another snake 24/7 can actually be very stressful. You may find them to be not such picky eaters if they are on their own, and in a cage of good size with proper temperature gradient.

I have 23 snakes. I keep almost all of them in tubs or racks. I very much appreciate their beauty. That's why I frequently do photography shoots with them. I don't have to be able to look at them all the time in order to appreciate their beauty. Plus that tubs/racks hold heat and humidty MUCH better than any tank.

You will learn a lot here.. enjoy.

[frankykeno]

Welcome to the forum JB. I hope you find it informative as well as meeting other like minded folks.

It's obvious you have a number of husbandry issues you are facing and thinking about making some changes for the betterment of your snakes. Whether you choose to house them in more of a display environment or not, I believe you really should consider seperating them but that will be ultimately your choice. There are many very good reasons for this. I'll address just one of them here however.

The one point I'd like you to think about though is this. Your female has obviously bred to this male a number of times, each clutch being unsuccessful for whatever reasons. To put her through this season after season with no expectation of a good result just for me, doesn't make sense. Leaving them together will only promote breeding that you aren't prepared to manage and take away all that time your female could be just eating, growing and doing well w/o the physical stresses of uncontrolled mating. Also as far as I know, an adult male and female ball python in their natural environment would never associate with each other than for the short breeding time.

I would also ask you to think about that heat rock. They are known to be dangerous. That heat rock may work for years then suddenly badly burn your snakes. We have a rescue boa here that came in with a thermal belly burn of over 3 feet in length from only 1 month's exposure to a heat rock. Please reconsider that heat rock. There are so many other heating options and any of us will gladly steer you to them.

I hope I've not offended you JB. I'd like to see you enjoy the site and learn, as we've all learned and are still learning about different ways to care for this beautiful creatures.


~~Jo~~

[JB_Orchidguy]

ok. I will contimplate seperating these guys, but they have been together for 10 years or more. Would the seperation stress them since the have been togeher for so long, or is that an atribute that doesn't need to be placed on snakes? Thanks for all the advice. I will start planning the new cage/cages. I will probably do a stack configureation if I do use the seperate cage method. I figure it will take a few hours to build the new cages and then another day to properly finish them. Then I can begin warming my babies up and hopefully feeding them rats instead of mice, but if they still refuse rats after warming up could it be they are too used to eating mice over rats since they have been so long on mice? I am also contimplating the shoebox type housings for future juviniles and babies. Although that will come after I perfect my lacking husbandry. Thanks for all your info, and I am sorry for not reading up like this sooner. Thanks goodness my snakes are still health and do not apear to have any ill effect of it. I just had them checked out by a vet for a health and suitability statement. So please its not as bad as it sounds.

Again I am not trying to pass judgement on how people keep thier babies. I was just curious.

[frankykeno]

I think it's great JB that you're open to what is being suggested to you! That does show a genuine concern for your snakes rather than some folks who get all bent out of shape and upset if they hear anything they take to be a "bad" comment on their husbandry. It's nice to see your ego isn't getting in the way of caring for these snakes of yours.

I'm also glad you have a vet and the snakes have checked out well recently so you are at least starting this transition in husbandry with healthy adults.

Anytime you make a change, even for the best reasons, it can stress out a snake. After all they don't have the capacity to understand it but just like things I do for my 4 kids, sometimes you just have to do what is right whether they get it or not at first LOL. Provided with two seperate enclosures that are set up properly to allow for two hides, proper temps, proper humidity and a nice thermal gradient for them....I bet they will settle right in and do very well for you.

Like any new environment though, once you get to that point....give them lots of alone time to settle in and check out their new digs. Give them a week or two without anything more than basic husbandry and I bet they will be just as happy as a pig in....well you get my point LOL.


~~Jo~~