My experience with multi-species cohabitation.

[Critter87]

I know this is considered taboo, but I’ve had my female BP living with a male common garter snake, and an emerald swift for a full year now. There’s been zero issues whatsoever. In fact, the BP’s became a much more reliable eater since my experiment began.

Terrarium is approximately 50 gallons, planted and bio active with isopods, dubia roaches, and whatever other microfauna came with the substrate I collected outside (I live in Idaho, so reptile mites aren’t a concern). I had her in this enclosure by herself for a couple years before carefully introducing her roommates. She had the typical BP behavior then, reluctantly feeding and generally inactive.

The garter snake is an adult male that I caught myself. I kept him in a separate enclosure for a couple months; he quickly tamed down and became very friendly and sociable. I put him in with the python and watched closely as they encountered each other. There was no aggression or visible stress for either. The garter eagerly accepted night crawlers and herring immediately, but the python wasn’t due for a feeding yet. Moment of truth came later. Not only did she take a thawed rat, she took a medium thawed rat, which was a huge step up for her.

Now a year later, she’s much more active and I haven’t had to flush a rat since. As soon as the lights go out, she starts roaming the cage. She also spends a lot of time climbing branches and I’ve even seen her coiled up on them, emerald boa-style.

The garter has been an absolutely amazing pet. He genuinely seems to enjoy and even seek out human interaction. So far he's cured 3 ophidophobes with his personality, including an ex girlfriend and my current one.

As for the emerald swift, she was introduced with the most apprehension on my part. I had to do something to get the insect population down, and she drew the short straw being the only insectivore in my collect that didn't pose an danger to the snakes. The fact that she has the personality of a Nile monitor didn't help her case either. I was most worried that Mr. Garter would go after her, but he had and still has no interest. My hypothesis is that he's never encountered a lizard before in his life, since the only species in my area is the uncommon western five lined skink, of which I've only ever seen twice. So he doesn't know lizards are edible in the first place. Maybe I'd have different results with a western terrestrial garter snake?

The last animal I tried to add to this enclosure was a young pacman frog. THAT didn't go well. Mr. Garter immediately latched on, but I was monitoring as always and rescued the little guy. Didn’t think he’d take on something that big… Gave the snake a fish as an apology and put froggy in his own enclosure. That experience further reinforces my belief that Mr. Garter only wants food he's familiar with, since I caught him in a wetland habitat.

Anyway that's how my little experiment went. Of course I don't recommend trying this yourself. I did it because I had the time and experience to do it safely and controlled, and there was virtually no real-life accounts on the internet, other than "don't do it". Pic taken today.

[Armiyana]

The only co-habitation setups I agree with are ones focused around animals that live in the same locale. For example, ribbon snakes and green anoles. You went and mixed 3 different animals from 3 different countries...Then tried for a 4th....

And from the sounds of it you also went and put a wild caught snake in with 2 captive breds? You mention quarantining him... but did you actually treat him for parasites he most likely has? Along with exposing them to the possible bacteria and all from the outdoor substrate...You even trying to put a pac-man frog in there is ridiculous because they will try to eat anything they can fit in their mouth, including the other snakes and the swift once they're large enough.

There is so much wrong with this experiment that honestly I'm pretty surprised you would post it knowing how so many people dislike this sort of thing.
It feels more like the people I would have to educate about reptiles at a big box shop with one cage wanting too many animals instead of an actual 'experiment'...

[dakski]

I think this an example of something either not working and the OP not realizing it yet, or an outlier at best.

Not even sure where to start.

1. Most reptiles are solitary and do not like to share space unless breeding.

2. Feeding multiple animals in the same enclosure is asking for trouble. One can hurt or swallow another one going after the same prey item.

3. Wild caught anything shouldn't be in the same room, let alone tank, without proper testing, deworming, etc. AND proper quarantine. Different room, different utensils, and for 90 days with captive bred, probably 2X that for a wild caught specimen.

4. Temp and humidity requirements differ with region and species. Swifts needs a hot spot of 95F to digest properly, UVB lighting, etc. A temp that high would hurt or without proper management, if it got a few degrees hotter, could kill a BP and potentially a garter.

5. A 50G is okay for one adult BP or swift. Not a swift, a BP, and a garter.

6. Mixing snakes and lizards and different food types is not considered a good practice. Insects, what swifts eat, will annoy (at best) a BP and can carry parasites that a lizard might be able to handle, but a BP wouldn't be exposed to in captivity.

7. Any untreated substrate, from Idaho or anywhere else is probably asking for trouble on many levels.

8. Bioactive enclosures are difficult at best, but probably just hasn't been run long enough to collapse in this instance, or the OP just doesn't know what a mess the situation is bacterially and fungus wise, etc.

WOW. I don't think I've ever seen so many approaches and missteps in one tank.

This "experiment" seems ill informed and is an example of things holding together just long enough to confuse success with catastrophe. At the worst, it's given the OP the idea that this is a good thing and encouraged them.

I would encourage other readers to use this as a case of what NOT to do. For that, I thank the OP for sharing the story so more experienced keepers can point out his/her mistakes.

Having said that, I am giving the OP the benefit of the doubt here and assuming they are just misinformed and don't know better. OP, PLEASE separate your species and give them proper care. I would also return wild caught specimens to the wild quickly after acquisition, in general, I wouldn't take one home to begin with.

I would also add that the BP eating regularly is probably a) a miracle and b) an example of coincidence rather than causation. I know many BP's that wouldn't have overcome this situation, even to this point.

Again, readers, please take this as an example of WHAT NOT TO DO and please do not cohabitate species in captivity. We have the option as keepers to leave the wild alone, get captive bred and healthy specimens, and control our animals environments so they are ideal. In this case, OP may be lucky so far (or again, doesn't know the damage that's been done), but in general, with reptile keeping, it's better to be GOOD than LUCKY.

[GoingPostal]

This is exactly the kind of ownership that makes reptile keepers look terrible. You've removed native species from their environment, you're cohabbing multiple species from across the world. Why? Why are people so dead set on risking their animals health and lives? Please separate your animals and keep them properly.

[Bogertophis]

Sorry, for all the reasons above, I'm just not impressed. Bad idea, even IF for the moment you think you're on to something. You're not. I feel bad for your animals.

[Bogertophis]

Just a few more afterthoughts that I didn't have time for this morning:

Quoting ..."I live in Idaho, so reptile mites aren’t a concern"
FYI- Reptile mites are not indigenous in the U.S. They're shared among captive animals in the pet trade, & great care should always be taken to see that they are never spread to our native wildlife. So if you go into pet stores in Idaho, you can conceivably bring home reptile mites if there's any in the store on their animals, as there often is. They can sometimes hitch a ride home with you on your clothing if you've handled or been close enough to their affected reptiles, & some report they've even come home with them in the substrates they bought. But native wildlife in the U.S.- so far as I'm aware- is not known to harbor these nasty disease carriers at this time. They are a shared plague of pet stores, reptile expos, careless breeders & all the hapless pet-buyers & shoppers.


However- there's just no end to the pathogens that wild snakes can harbor (yet appear "healthy") but which can nevertheless sicken or kill non-native snakes, and vice-versa. Mixing wild-caught & captive-bred or non-native snakes is just so far off the beam I'm nearly speechless... Just like humans can get very sick & die when newly- exposed to pathogens they've never contacted previously & have no resistance for. You're playing with fire. And incidentally, this is why it's a huge no-no to release non-native species into the wild, or to release even native species after they've been exposed to others while in captivity- even when they "seem healthy". So PLEASE keep this in mind.

Snakes are very stoic, & stress is not always visible until it's resulted in disease. Stress lowers their immune function, just as it does ours. Competition for certain optimal spots causes stress, even among members of the same species that are housed together. Garter snakes prefer much cooler temps. than do BPs, so either your BP is too cool or your garter snake is much too warm- I'm thinking that it's no wonder he loves to come out.

Another big misconception you have (or had?): snakes DO NOT size up their prey- when they're hungry & they get the cues they're looking for* they just go for it. They may kill prey only to discover "oops, it won't fit". *Depending on the species, the cues may include motion, heat & odors, & if they're hungry enough, some cues may be overlooked just in case it works. So forcing an assortment of predators to live in such CLOSE proximity is a very bad idea. Accidents DO happen.

Your set-up reminds me of the old saying "I'm not completely useless, I can always serve as a bad example!"

[Gio]

What is happening here lately?

I'm puzzled when things like this occur. It shows that not a shred of research has taken place on the part of the OP. If there was, it was ignored or not retained at all.

Reptiles have been imported for decades and the early importers and keepers went through years and years of trial and error to eventually figure out how to get wild caught snakes to stay alive, breed and eventually thrive.

After all of that we are lucky enough to have almost every species you could ask for being successfully captive bred.

SEVERAL extremely well respected breeders have written books giving all of us the information needed to not only keep our animals, but how to breed them, and extend their lives to the maximum limits. These books come backed by field studies and go into the biology of the animals.

THE COMPLETE BALL PYTHON

THE COMPLETE BOA CONSTRICTOR

THE COMPLETE CARPET PYTHON

Those above, are just 3 books I thought of with hundreds of pages about everything one would want and need to know about keeping snakes.

In every book the message is pretty clear about NOT keeping snakes like the OP is doing.

This very board has quality information readily available for all to learn from.

I was tempted to not even post as all of the comments before my post sum it up and sum it up well.

This is a quality chat board, and one of few still in existence and going strong. There are still many members here that are filled with knowledge and can be very helpful to others.

The original post here does not reflect how the quality keepers I know here keep snakes, or how the board recommends they be kept.

If anybody new is looking at attempting a similar practice, please don't. Its absolutely the WRONG way to do things.

[Homebody]

I'm puzzled when things like this occur. It shows that not a shred of research has taken place on the part of the OP. If there was, it was ignored or not retained at all.

The Critter87's actions are less puzzling if you assume that they were taken for reasons of economy. He didn't dump all those animals in there to prove they could peacefully coexist. He dumped them all in there because it was cheaper and/or easier. When they didn't kill each other, he decided to keep on doing it. Hopefully, your posts and those of the other posters will cause him to reconsider.

[Armiyana]

I think you hit the nail on the head, Homebody.
Even when they are animals that are from the same locale/coexist in nature, it's not an easy thing to cohab predators of varying sizes.

I mentioned earlier that cohabbing the same locale is the only way I tolerate it, but it's still something I personally don't recommend or do myself because of how difficult it can be maintaining a balance and the health of the animals involved.
I worked in a zoo once where there's a gorgeous naturalistic setup where dik dik, rock hyraxes, small savannah monitors and a couple of tortoises lived. All from the same locale.
Guess who would have to sit inside the habitat with the tortoises so that the other herbivores didn't steal their food?

Even when setting up aquariums, you don't want to do things like mix African cichlids with South American. The size difference and tank setup alone is entirely different. And then you don't want to mix angelfish with Oscars even though they're ALSO a South American cichlid...

I suppose if you want to test out your own version of some battle royale invasive species plague cage match then op knows how to do it. *Shrugs*

[nikkubus]

Everything everyone else said is true and I hope you take it into account.

Since I didn't see it mentioned yet, I would not be feeding medium rats to a pet BP, and only ever at certain times of the season for a very large breeder BP female. Yours already looks obese and it's only going to get worse feeding mediums.

Telling yourself you have the experience to do it safely the paragraph following explaining that you put a frog in an enclosure with a garter... this is colubrid 101 really, that they eat frogs. I'm not trying to be mean, I'm really not, but you need to take a step back an re-evaluate what you think you know. The only person you are fooling is yourself and people with practically no experience whatsoever, and unfortunately a lot of those people are uneducated enough to try it anyway because they read stories like yours and can't tell you don't know what you are doing. If anyone in this thread comes off as harsh, you have to understand that we MUST point this stuff out to deter others from repeating these mistakes, whether or not you listen to anything said. This gross failure presented as a success cannot be allowed to be platformed without serious criticism.