Plastic rubs/ tubs - Cause for concern ??

[Zincubus]

Soooooo

I've heard on the grapevine that there may be cause for concern as regards the heating of plastic rub/rubs wether it's UTH or heat /ceramic bulbs!?!?!

The suggestion is ....

Plastic when heated to a certain level will always release VOC which have apparently been linked with Respiratory Tract Infections ( more commonly known as RI ) in snakes and other reptiles ..

Volatile Organic Compounds (VOCs) are extremely hazardous. The EPA explains VOCs, and the dangers they pose to our health. According to the EPA, VOCs cause eye, nose and throat irritation, frequent headaches, nausea, and can also damage the liver, kidney and central nervous system .


Any thoughts , ideas , concerns or information on this topic ??

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[Cheesenugget]

Did they say at what temps at minimum to produce said compounds? Most keepers don't go higher than 90F. Many tubs have high melting points. If 90F is all it takes to start melting the tub, I must have been melting them and inhaling toxic air every time I touch the tubs.

[Bogertophis]

I'm SO glad you brought that up. I am not a fan of PVC/plastic cages for that very reason- I don't trust the health & safety (mine OR my snakes) to constantly
heated plastics, no matter how "convenient" they may seem to be. Granted, I'm not a BP-keeper either, so glass tanks are very suitable for my snakes (mostly
colubrids) but you can also make glass tanks "work" for BPs/ & boids in general. Even more concerning to me has been the use of plastic storage bins that were
NEVER designed for living creatures (unlike the harder plastic cages) & which off-gas to the extent that is obvious even to me (a mere human) at normal room
temperatures, so I hate to think about enclosed snakes with a far better sense of smell & more importantly, a less-developed immune system & a smaller, more
fragile body, that cannot escape & are "serving a life sentence".

There have been a few threads about snakes obsessed with the air vents in their cages, & while we cannot prove it, it creeps me out on their behalf to think that
this may be what's going on. Many younger members keeping snakes have never lived in a world where plastics aren't literally everywhere, but I prefer to error
on the side of caution. Illnesses like cancer are not usually just a simple exposure but the exposure to more unhealthy things over time...and the more you can
minimize such exposure the better off you are (-not to mention the environment). Call me chicken if you like, but I think someday people will look back on this
era & say "what were you thinking!?" Proof will be a long-time coming though...it's hard enough to get funding for research on human health, let alone snakes.
I think we need to rely on common sense & apply what we do know to come up with the best methods for our non-human friends.

Have you ever brought home a plastic storage container? If you & I can smell it, it's off-gassing VOCs. Plastics are pretty much ALL very toxic, & no, you don't have to go above 90* for this to happen. The softer plastics (like storage bins are made from) are probably the worst, but you have to remember that ALL plastics degrade over time. The longer they are exposed to heat, the faster that happens. That's why the plastic "food-safe" (HDPE) containers that you microwave some frozen foods in all say "do NOT re-use"...after one use, they are breaking down & allowing unhealthy chemical exposure in our food. So what do you think happens in a plastic cage that is heated 24/7?

Those who manufacture plastics want to sell their products to the most people & for the most profits. Don't expect them to release what they most certainly know about health hazards. But you might ask who in government they've paid off to look the other way & bury the studies...

[zina10]

The VOC from plastic that are used in tubs is extremely low and once out gassed you would have to heat to a melting point to release toxic fumes.

PVC, used in just about every display or larger reptile cage, is another matter. PVC is the most toxic plastic there is.


PVC – the Poison Plastic

VC is the most toxic plastic for our health and environment. No other plastic contains or releases as many dangerous chemicals. These include dioxins, phthalates, vinyl chloride, ethylene dichloride, lead, cadmium, and organotins. There’s no safe way to manufacture, use or dispose of PVC productsi.


Here is the entire article. Take note of the references to studies that were done.

There is no need to heat up PVC floors, vinyl etc for the out-gassing to take place.

http://www.chej.org/pvcfactsheets/Th...n_Plastic.html


That said, there are just about hundreds of thousands of these cages out there now. I have yet to hear that people that use them end up with sick snakes. But it IS a concern.
Another reason why I love my Neodesha display cage and wish it hadn't been discontinued.

Take note, more racks are also make of PVC.

However, Glass and wood tanks can make husbandry so difficult (keeping a perfect balance of heat and humidity) that you can end up with sick snakes far quicker even, simply from substandard husbandry.

So everyone has to make a informed decision based on what seems to work for these snakes and keep them happy / healthy. Having used every form of caging there is (other then PVC display cage, but use PVC racks) I have had healthiest / happiest Ball Pythons in tubs/racks. Not to say its the only way to go, obviously.

Every method has its positives and negatives. It also needs to be taken into consideration what kind of species we're talking about. One that hides most of the time and is happiest crammed in a tight dark spot might be harder to keep happy in a large glass tank, while a species that is large and loves to be out and about, climbing and moving around a lot, might not do well in any kind of tub.

[KevinK]

Even though this is kind of a continuation from the other thread, I'll make a point...

Water brought into your house (in any new construction) is done so via PVC pex line. Your drinking water is directly exposed to PVC.

Old houses? You pipes are copper which is soldered in lead ....pretty sure everyone knows lead is bad for you.

Plastic water bottles? Yup, plastics outgas into your water

Your keyboard, your tupperware containers, your soda/water bottles, your snake water bowls, your snake plants, your snake thermometers, the entire interior of your car.....EVERYTHING is plastic.

Bigger things to worry about in my opinion. Everything kills you if you ask someone ( sugar, carbs, salt, meat, sunlight, paper products....the list is ENDLESS) and everything is a big conspiracy if you ask the right person.

[MR Snakes]

The VOC from plastic that are used in tubs is extremely low and once out gassed you would have to heat to a melting point to release toxic fumes.

PVC, used in just about every display or larger reptile cage, is another matter. PVC is the most toxic plastic there is.


PVC – the Poison Plastic

VC is the most toxic plastic for our health and environment. No other plastic contains or releases as many dangerous chemicals. These include dioxins, phthalates, vinyl chloride, ethylene dichloride, lead, cadmium, and organotins. There’s no safe way to manufacture, use or dispose of PVC productsi.


Here is the entire article. Take note of the references to studies that were done.

There is no need to heat up PVC floors, vinyl etc for the out-gassing to take place.

http://www.chej.org/pvcfactsheets/Th...n_Plastic.html


That said, there are just about hundreds of thousands of these cages out there now. I have yet to hear that people that use them end up with sick snakes. But it IS a concern.
Another reason why I love my Neodesha display cage and wish it hadn't been discontinued.

Take note, most racks are also make of PVC.

However, Glass and wood tanks can make husbandry so difficult (keeping a perfect balance of heat and humidity) that you can end up with sick snakes far quicker even, simply from substandard husbandry.

So everyone has to make a informed decision based on what seems to work for these snakes and keep them happy / healthy. Having used every form of caging there is (other then PVC display cage, but use PVC racks) I have had healthiest / happiest Ball Pythons in tubs/racks. Not to say its the only way to go, obviously.

Every method has its positives and negatives. It also needs to be taken into consideration what kind of species we're talking about. One that hides most of the time and is happiest crammed in a tight dark spot might be harder to keep happy in a large glass tank, while a species that is large and loves to be out and about, climbing and moving around a lot, might not do well in any kind of tub.

That's why you need to buy the metal framed racks that this snekless dude is.

[zina10]

I agree with you Kevin.

But being in such a relatively small space with little airflow and surrounded by out gassing is not good. But that is why we wash new tubs well and let them air out a bit, after that, no noticeable odor or gassing unless heated to a very high degree.

Same with PVC. Don't let it get burning hot.

I have found that more snakes get sick or stressed in glass tanks IF they are the kind of species that need fairly high heat AND high humidity. Not to mention lots of privacy. While it can be done, its far more difficult and often not done right.

Glass lets the cold through easily. Its more difficult to maintain correct heat and humidity, not to mention privacy.

Like I said, it CAN be done, but I see it done wrong in just about 80% or more when those tanks are used for species with those husbandry requirements. Plastic caging has now been used for many, many years. Usually in more professional setups. Some breeders keep some extremely high value collections just that way. Because it works. Not that any $20 snake isn't just as precious to its owner, but the point is, if it works for many, many years for people that take great care with their collections, then it has already proven its value and safety.

Nothing is 100%. You have to to look at the big picture and choose what works for the species and yourself.

[zina10]

That's why you need to buy the metal framed racks that this snekless dude is.

The tubs in the racks are still plastic.

But I wouldn't worry about it. Those racks/tubs/cages have now been used for many, many years. And the incidents with snakes illnesses have actually gone down with the correct use of those. Because it is far easier to achieve the correct husbandry, heat/humidity.

[MR Snakes]

The tubs in the racks are still plastic.

But I wouldn't worry about it. Those racks/tubs/cages have now been used for many, many years. And the incidents with snakes illnesses have actually gone down with the correct use of those. Because it is far easier to achieve the correct husbandry, heat/humidity.

No worries as I'm one step ahead of you. Having stainless steel tubs made. Dishwasher safe and only weigh 67lbs each!

[pretends2bnormal]

No worries as I'm one step ahead of you. Having stainless steel tubs made. Dishwasher safe and only weigh 67lbs each!

Looks like you're going to be starting a reptile rack business building racks out of metal, with casters and those metal food warming pans for tubs.

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