When to consider assist feeding when you only have a short history of a bp's care?

[Gemini Pythons]

My boyfriend and I are hobby breeders. This is our fifth year breeding, and tenth year keeping ball pythons. We have an issue that we aren't sure how to proceed on so are hoping for some second opinions! I have also emailed our vet this same info to ask his opinion. (Also, I hope this post isn't in violation of the community rule of only one person per account! It is just me checking this account and replying, but it would feel weird to omit my bf from the story, thus it being told from the point of view of 'we'! Mods, if it's an issue, please let me know and I'll edit it.)

Back in late June, we picked up four adults (all who eat F/T) from a breeder who was moving out of province. We asked many times, but we did not receive the snakes' records before their move, and during the move, their computer was damaged. It is unlikely now that we will ever get records, and (understandably because they have hundreds of bps) they doesn't recall the snakes' recent histories before we bought them.

All four snakes passed quarantine. Three of the snakes we've gotten to eat with no problem, but one, a four year old female (breeder says she has never been bred), has been mostly a hold out. She has snagged once. It was a F/T ASF (snagged about four weeks ago) and small for her size. She has never snagged again, and she has shown no interest in other ASF/mice/rats we've offered since.

We're concerned because we don't know how well she was eating before we acquired her. The only bowel movement she has had in our care was one small one after the ASF. She did not have any before that, which we take to indicate she may not have been eating regularly before we bought her.

We weighed her when we got her; She was 920 grams at the end of June. She is now 850 grams, so we are starting to feel more pressure and concern about getting her to eat regularly, especially as we don't know how she was eating with her breeders.

Our quandry is, at what point do we consider taking her to the vet to be assist fed? Please, we'd love to hear your opinion on what you'd do in this situation. We know this should be a last resort, but as she is getting closer to having lost 10% of her body weight since we got her, we're concerned.

Over the past three months (after one month of no eating) we've been gradually trying tips suggested in the great Psychology of Problem Feeders article by JKR. So far, no luck. We feel like we're flying blind because we don't have her records. Many of our bps go off food regularly depending on the season, and we just keep tabs on their weight and let them do their thing. But we're not sure what to do in the case of not knowing her history.

Thanks for your opinions!

[bcr229]

I would not assist feed her. If she's almost 1000 grams she knows how to eat; this is not a baby that needs a jumpstart.

If she's 900-ish grams at four years old she likely never was a good feeder. I have/had one like this, every few months she would eat once or twice in a row, then she'd stop eating again. Averaged out she was only eating every 5-6 weeks. She's healthy enough, just small.

[zina10]

Have you ever tried live food ?
Have you tried setting her up differently? Is she in a tub, does she have a lot of privacy? Do you offer at night and leave the food?

Some just aren't really into F/T. You can get them to take it, occasionally, but they never become super enthusiastic feeders. Some can be "jump started" with live, even live ASF, and then switched over again to rats and/or F/T.

I would never, ever assist or force feed a adult Ball Python that has already eaten before.

My first order would be double checking all husbandry, making sure that particular snake has a lot of darkness, privacy, hides. Change substrate, for example, if she is on paper, put her on a dark substrate such as coco coir.

Then, if she refuses to take F/T, try live. Supervised of course. Start with a smaller rat, weanling sized.

If she still refuses everything for the next 2 month or so, you can see if your vet will check her for internal issues such as parasites or flagellates which can cause intestinal disease and problems.

[Stewart_Reptiles]

YOU DO NOT assist an animal that knows how to eat that is that simple.

When you buy adults it's a pretty typical issue to have, 50% of the adults I have ever received (loan usually) would take up to a year to resume feeding, they just take a lot longer for some to adjust to their new surrendering.

The first thing I would bet on is the fact that she is a picky eater period 4 years old less than a 1000 grams is a huge red flag when it comes to feeding habit.

The only thing you can do is make sure the husbandry you are providing is optimum even downsize to the bare minimum which usually get them back feeding a little quicker.

Alternative live prey can be an alternative if you are that desperate but I do not recommend it if F/T is the route you want to go well at least not as a first measure.

Here is what I would do if she was mine

Find the smallest tub for it's size (I would get a 15 quarts tub), use coconut chip bedding (such as reptichip), have a hot spot of 88 cool spot of 78 and let the animal settle for a week.

Once a week has pass I would offer a F/T Mouse (not rat) and do it as followed, thaw at room temp near the enclosure, grab the mouse from behind the neck with a pair of feeding tong, warm it up with a hair dryer (make sure it is warm enough) and offer in the tub by moving the mouse around like if it was alive (hence why you need to grab it from behind the neck)

If that does not work I would try again with a live mouse the following week.

And BTW ASF are not what they are cracked up to be mice are actually a lot more enticing to problem feeders.

[Gemini Pythons]

I would not assist feed her. If she's almost 1000 grams she knows how to eat; this is not a baby that needs a jumpstart.

If she's 900-ish grams at four years old she likely never was a good feeder. I have/had one like this, every few months she would eat once or twice in a row, then she'd stop eating again. Averaged out she was only eating every 5-6 weeks. She's healthy enough, just small.

Thanks for this. It's reassuring to hear, and something I didn't think about. The breeder maintenance feeds, and to this point, all the snakes we've gotten from them grow quite quickly when fed regularly. In fact, they usually end up being voracious eaters. As silly as this sounds, it never occurred to us that she just might be a bad feeder.

We'd already contacted the breeder, and last we spoke, he mentioned some of his snakes died recently (they were necropsied, and nothing was wrong physically or neurologically, and no sickness or infection. We can vouch that they has great husbandry and are incredibly experienced). Their vet said the move was likely too much stress for some of them, and in each case, none of them started eating. That basically put us into a panic with this girl. Thanks for talking me down and the very rational reassurance!

[Gemini Pythons]

YOU DO NOT assist an animal that knows how to eat that is that simple.

When you buy adults it's a pretty typical issue to have, 50% of the adults I have ever received (loan usually) would take up to a year to resume feeding, they just take a lot longer for some to adjust to their new surrendering.

The first thing I would bet on is the fact that she is a picky eater period 4 years old less than a 1000 grams is a huge red flag when it comes to feeding habit.

Thank you! Another user mentioned this and honestly, it never even occurred to me. The breeder maintenance feeds, so all the young adults we've gotten from him who have never been bred are always small for their age. As soon as we get them, they become FANTASTIC eaters though... I feel silly admitting this, but the idea that they were maintenance fed AND are a bad eater never actually occurred to either of us! Thank you for the reassurance.

And BTW ASF are not what they are cracked up to be mice are actually a lot more enticing to problem feeders.

Interesting, I've never heard this! The one ASF was the only thing she was really into. We tried mice as well and they were ignored, but to be fair, she's been ignoring most food, haha. For us, we've never really had an issue with adult problem eaters before (outside of hatchlings of course) so this was actually the first time in ten years that we've tried one!

[Gemini Pythons]

Have you ever tried live food ?
Have you tried setting her up differently? Is she in a tub, does she have a lot of privacy? Do you offer at night and leave the food?

Yep, as mentioned, we have tried almost everything in the go-to JKR article about problem feeders! Your suggestion of a change to a new substrate is the next one on our list (we don't want to stress her out, so we've been gradually trying things). We use a rack system, she has a hide and husbandry is meticulously watched. We also thoroughly clean after every pee/poo just in case it's smell related.

Then, if she refuses to take F/T, try live. Supervised of course. Start with a smaller rat, weanling sized.
If she still refuses everything for the next 2 month or so, you can see if your vet will check her for internal issues such as parasites or flagellates which can cause intestinal disease and problems.

We have not tried live. The breeder only feeds live to get a hatchling eating, and on the rare occasion they have one who can't be switched to F/T, they are sold (even if the morph is one they were hoping for for a project). We don't feed live, and our vet, who we also contacted about in this case, does not recommend we try it. But yes, we are going to keep an eye on her weight and bring her in for a checkup if it drops much more!
Thank you for the suggestions!