Ball Pythons And Animal Welfare

[Caali]

While I was surfing through the internet I found an interesting article by the German animal protection organisation. I'd love to hear other people's opinion on it (the points they try to make) so I translated it to English.
But before you comment please keep in mind that this is not a professional translation and a lot of the words that were used in the original don't have a direct translation in English. English is also not my native tongue so please don't criticise the organisation for the choice of words because that's probably my doing.
This is the link to the translated text if anyone is interested (I only translated the yellow box): https://www.tierschutzbund.de/filead...ython_2014.pdf

This is the translation:

• Ball pythons are relatively shy snakes and are sensitive to stress. They are therefore not suitable for beginners in the keeping and breeding of reptiles (in terraria). Common issues are mouth rot, respiratory ailments or parasite infestation. What's more, owners underestimate that ball pythons can exhibit aggressive behaviours and can try to bite it's owner.
• The ball python is, just like all snakes, carnivorous (meat-eating) and needs food animals for it's diet (e.g. mice). In the eyes of animal welfare this is a huge problem and leads to the conclusion that one should pretermit the keeping of snakes.
• Food animals can be offered frozen but this has to be questioned. Where is the food from, how were the animals accommodated and how were the animals killed? Sadly there are cases in which the animals were frozen alive or are killed with insufficient methods.
• There are also snakes that only take live or prekilled food. The owners often kill the animals themselves before giving them to the snakes. This is to be objected from the stance of animal protection since there is no obligation for snake keepers to learn about killing vertebrates within the limits that can satisfy animal welfare regulations. Laymen can try to master this challenge which leads to the food animal dying under infliction of pain and suffering in most cases.
• It is also an ethical problem to put the food animal in the enclosure since the animal has no way of fleeing like it would have in a natural environment. It's at the predator's mercy. Depending on how hungry the snake is there is a possibility for the food animal to vegetate in the enclosure for quite some time. Contrariwise, snakes have been hurt by food animals which is why you should never leave a food animal unattended in the enclosure.
• Furthermore, cases keep appearing in which the food animals are treated as second class animals.
• With heat- and light sources one has to watch out for the strong heat. The owner has to prevent direct contact with the heat source because it can cause severe burns. A protective grid could protect the snake.
• Ball pythons are often imported. Between 2010 and 2012 over 20000 animals were shipped to Germany. Among them were wild snakes but first and foremost there were snakes from so called "Ranching" facilities in Ghana and Togo. Some of the shipped animals were also bred offsprings.
• Animals from Ranching facilities are problematic. These facilities are insufficient concerning animal protection. The snakes are often dehydrated and underfed because they aren't fed in their home country anymore. The new keeper also doesn't make good for it. Furthermore, these animals are partly food specialists (they often don't readjust to dead food animals and only like mice of a specific colour for example).
• In any case, wild catches are to be opposed. They are often infested by parasites (ecto- and endoparasites) and stressed. They have difficulties getting used to a life in captivity.

[cchardwick]

Thanks for posting this article. To me it sounds like this was written by a teenager grasping at straws trying to put together a paper for his or her animal rights class in school. And I can tell for sure that whoever wrote this article never had a pet snake, in fact it sounds to me like they are afraid of snakes, maybe even terrified LOL. The best defense for anti-pet propaganda like this is education and this is what this site is here to do. Just search this forum and you'll find that just about every point in this article is wrong or consists of mistakes made by beginners who don't really know what they are doing.

Everyone here knows that ball pythons are the perfect beginner snake, diseases are pretty rare, and they almost never bite especially compared to other snakes. Most of the article is actually about their food source, it is our responsibility to raise mice and rats in the best possible conditions and euthanize them properly (and do it the legal way, typically with CO2) before feeding them to our snakes, or if feeding live use the proper sized rodent and don't leave them with the snake for more than five minutes to prevent damage to the snake.

I think along with the animal rights classes in school they should also have classes that introduce the kids to these wonderful animals so they can get some hands on experience and make their own decisions about keeping animals.

[WastelandExotics]

I mean, this is just the equivalent of PETA here in the states, isn't it? From what I can tell from delving into an online search, the ECEAE is a private organization that focuses on animal welfare and basically makes it's own rules and guidelines for what they consider to be ethical or not ethical when dealing with animals. But with that in mind, they're just pushing their ideology and nothing more. It's like talking to vegans; some people are going to agree with them and some people aren't because we all have a different perspective on what is ethical and what isn't (ie. any discussion with a rat owner about how to properly house feeder rodents would give you a good example of what I'm talking about).

I guess it just comes down to perspective? From what I can tell, almost all of the bullet points are valid to a degree and need to be considered when thinking about owning a BP.

- BPs are sensitive to stress // yes, though they are hardy animals and good 'beginner snakes' as they aren't as sensitive as other species and allow for some hiccups here and there
- They eat meat (oh no!) "In the eyes of animal welfare this is a huge problem" // which leads me to my point about vegans that I mentioned earlier (no offense to any vegans that actually recognize carnivores as being part of the circle of life)
- Frozen animals could be used but need to be sourced correctly // I agree with this - do your research into your feeder suppliers and hold them accountable for treating their feeder stock right (clean bedding, food, water, etc)
- There are some BPs that only take prekilled or live // yeah, unfortunately, but are you going to starve it because you believe it's unethical to feed them what they're intended to eat? I don't see a lot of sympathy for these snakes in these kinds of arguments; they're living things that deserve a good quality of life too or just because they aren't traditionally cute, they deserve to starve to death?
- Not fair to feed live rodents to snakes in their enclosure // I personally don't like feeding live mostly because I like rats but also because I don't want the rat causing damage to my snake; if I can feed frozen, I'm going to feed frozen but again, if the snake will only take live or prekilled, then I'm not going to deprive them.
- Feeder housing is bad // there are plenty of facilities that breed feeder rodents ethically and humanly and plenty who don't - support the ones that you feel most comfortable with
- Heating is too hard to regulate and could cause burns // I swear, it's like these people are reaching for anything. Yes, exotics and reptiles especially require a bit more extra care and consideration when it comes to housing. It's not rocket science, just do your research and ask questions before getting a reptile
- To wrap up the last 3 'points', imported BPs don't eat, are riddled with parasites, blah blah blah // I don't know what it's like in Germany but I would find it extremely difficult to find an import for sale to the public in one of my local reptile shops, which make these last three points completely null and void and that IF you're talking about reptile shops - online sales to the public are generally always CB unless otherwise noted. There are so many captive bred babies available on the market that usually bulk import snakes are left for big breeders that want to gamble with the possibility of a completely new morph that no one has seen.

I just find it funny that all of these animal welfare groups claim to care about all animals but live in this weird fantasy land where no animal eats meat.



TL;DR It's just another hit piece with info skewed to an agenda.
/rant

[Skyrivers]

Thanks for posting this article. To me it sounds like this was written by a teenager grasping at straws trying to put together a paper for his or her animal rights class in school. And I can tell for sure that whoever wrote this article never had a pet snake, in fact it sounds to me like they are afraid of snakes, maybe even terrified LOL. The best defense for anti-pet propaganda like this is education and this is what this site is here to do. Just search this forum and you'll find that just about every point in this article is wrong or consists of mistakes made by beginners who don't really know what they are doing.

Everyone here knows that ball pythons are the perfect beginner snake, diseases are pretty rare, and they almost never bite especially compared to other snakes. Most of the article is actually about their food source, it is our responsibility to raise mice and rats in the best possible conditions and euthanize them properly (and do it the legal way, typically with CO2) before feeding them to our snakes, or if feeding live use the proper sized rodent and don't leave them with the snake for more than five minutes to prevent damage to the snake.

I think along with the animal rights classes in school they should also have classes that introduce the kids to these wonderful animals so they can get some hands on experience and make their own decisions about keeping animals.

I wonder if they considered the benefits that snakes provide in general. #1 rodent population control. Snakes are great useful creatures. Not surprised they made it into our living rooms and bedrooms as a family pet. They also have great personalities. The more I spend with mine the more I love them.

[SDA]

Good to know Germany has crazy people in pseudo organizations as well. I would agree only with that a poor health ball python is not a beginner snake.

[artgecko]

I'd agree with the other posts so far. This must be the German version of PETA. I wonder what ethical considerations they raise about keeping cats and dogs (who also require meat)? I wonder if they are also strongly against keeping those animals due to this... PETA pushes an agenda where humans have no interactions with animals (thus no domesticated animals or pets) so this group is probably the same.

Most BPs are captive bred now. There are some ranched ones, but that number is low compared to the number of ones that are bred...Maybe this is different in Germany than in the US?

As always, it is up to the owner to be choosy in where to buy their snake, how to keep it, and where to source feeders. I do believe that all facets of keeping animals, be they feeder animals or pets, should be done as humanely as possible. To that end, if you do need to kill your own feeders, etc. then it is definitely a good thing to do research and use a humane method and only purchase from those who do. Here in the states, I believe they have to gas with CO2 to be licensed, but if you are buying from some guy in his backyard, it is something to ask about.

[Skyrivers]

I'd agree with the other posts so far. This must be the German version of PETA. I wonder what ethical considerations they raise about keeping cats and dogs (who also require meat)? I wonder if they are also strongly against keeping those animals due to this... PETA pushes an agenda where humans have no interactions with animals (thus no domesticated animals or pets) so this group is probably the same.

Most BPs are captive bred now. There are some ranched ones, but that number is low compared to the number of ones that are bred...Maybe this is different in Germany than in the US?

As always, it is up to the owner to be choosy in where to buy their snake, how to keep it, and where to source feeders. I do believe that all facets of keeping animals, be they feeder animals or pets, should be done as humanely as possible. To that end, if you do need to kill your own feeders, etc. then it is definitely a good thing to do research and use a humane method and only purchase from those who do. Here in the states, I believe they have to gas with CO2 to be licensed, but if you are buying from some guy in his backyard, it is something to ask about.

I wonder if they themselves are Vegan?

[Kcl]

The majority of these points apply equally to other obligate carnivores such as cats. There is for the most part no more security that animals killed for cats' food are treated ethically than for snakes. It is also far easier for an individual owner to check on ethical sourcing for snakes' food than cats' as many owners have direct contact with the breeders of rodents for snakes whereas it's very difficult to trace the source of cat food unless you are one of the extremely rare people buying and feeding raw meat from a known source. There is an ethical argument to be made for ensuring that animal welfare is properly applied to feeder rodents in my opinion, but I don't believe the situation is generally much worse than for any other meat source and it's much easier to ensure that you as a buyer are acquiring ethical food for the snake.

Live feeding is an ethical debate that comes up pretty often. I have no issues with the countries that ban feeding live except when it is necessary for the life of the snake. However, the US isn't one of them, and also allows glue traps and mouse traps, which can be an even worse death for the animal. Few in this country would have qualms about using one of these for a mouse in the house, so concerns about live feeding from the general public tend to feel a bit short-sighted. I personally wouldn't feed live unless necessary, but don't really feel it needs to be banned. In the scope of things, it's relatively minor in my opinion and there are a whole lot of places we could focus on to do more good for animal welfare.

Several of these points are questioning the ethics of wild caught snakes. I personally don't believe in buying wild caught or captive hatched snakes unless it is a situation in which you as the buyer are an experienced breeder who will be establishing a captive bred source of something that is unavailable or rarely available as captive bred. As far as ball pythons go, most of the pet owners are only buying imports in cases of lack of knowledge. There are some ethical concerns and no real positives for pet only owners to have an import, but none of the concerns raised apply to captive bred ball pythons.

Heating concern, housing concern, etc - all of these are prevented with appropriate knowledge. Any pet can be harmed by an owner acquiring them without appropriate knowledge. This should be avoided whenever possible.

Overall, I don't see anything on this list which raises any real concerns for owning captive-bred, f/t fed, properly housed ball pythons. Wild collection has some potential issues and feeding live is debatable. Other than that, I don't see any arguments raised that really make it less ethical than owning a cat. Now is it less ethical than being vegan and only owning herbivorous pets? Maybe - it could certainly be debated.

[Caali]

Thanks for all the replies. When I first read this I was kind of shocked since I felt like it was so poorly made but I wanted to hear other's opinions.
I think they do have some points but they always come to the wrong conclusion. In the beginning of every point I can agree for the most part and then it just turns into something unexpected and wrong.
Btw we have PETA as well but nobody really pays attention to them since they seem to have no idea what they are talking about.
It's from the official Tierschutzbund (Tier = animal; Schutz = protection; Bund = association) which would translate to animal protection association. It's an association of many animal shelters and animal protection organisations in Germany
(http://www.eceae.org/cs/about-us/our...tzbund-germany). People take them more serious than PETA and they are on our country's list of lobbyists (as far as I know).
On an unrelated note: It's also likely that the author was vegan Vegetarianism and Veganism are on the rise in Germany. At the moment about 10% of the population is vegetarian/vegan and the number is rising. Reasons are the climate change and the ways animal are treated. I am also vegetarian because I couldn't look at meat anymore after I had to watch little chicks getting shredded alive. It was also a video made by some animal protection organisation but that one really traumatised me.

[Stewart_Reptiles]

Typical animal welfare rhetoric trying to gently discourage people from owning a BP.

There stat and knowledge on imports are very wrong, and try to make it sound like there is an issue when BP are considered a nuisance in Africa and are strictly regulated by the CITES.

The number of adult wild caught is small compared to CH which are not underfed (they are not fed at all they are shipped soon as they hatched and before their first shed)